Alternate Spanish Civil War Aviation

[papacavy]

Hi all you aeronautical experts out there!

I would like to see your ideas as to what different aircraft (not from the USSR, Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy) could have been supplied to either side of the Spanish Civil War.

Let's also consider the what-if scenarios if neither Stalin, Hitler or Mussolini sent forces to Spain. What other nations COULD have gotten involved and with what.

I would like you to ignore for the most part the reasons why my idea would not work and concentrate on what could have been.

Thanks you Guys!

 

[Apophenia]

A number of smaller European air forces used the desperation of the Spanish Republic to off-load their obsolete military aircraft. In the case of Poland, that would include the surreptitious supply of 20 x PWS 10 parasol fighters as trainers, 4 x RWD-13 liaison aircraft, and 20 x Breguet XIX biplane recce-bombers. Better than nothing ... but what Madrid really wanted were PZL P.11 fighters which they tried to buy in autumn 1936.

So, one easy 'what-if' would be if Warsaw agreed to supplying those 36 x P.11c fighters requested by the Republicans. To sweeten things, Poland might even offer a lower-price sale of its 50 x used P.11a fighters - an earlier-model with a lower-powered Mercury IV S2 engine. If Madrid nibbled, Warsaw might also offer up some of its ~120 PZL P.7a fighters - with an airframe related to the P.11a but having an older, Jupiter engine.

The point for Poland would be the future sales advantage of direct combat experience for its gull-winged Puławski fighters (even that may just ground-attack in the older for the P.7a). Cash from those sales - especially for the older models - could be ploughed back into modernising the Polish air force's own fighter fleet - possibly advancing the introduction of the P.24-inspired P.11g Kobuz by a couple of years.

 

[Desertfox]

Mexico was openly involved in supporting the Republicans. Could see a scenario where US aircraft are funneled thru Mexico, probably P-26 Peashooters and possibly P-36 Hawks later on.

 

[Apophenia]

Mexico was openly involved in supporting the Republicans...

In early 1936, the Glenn L. Martin Company was denied export approval for its Model 139 bomber. Meanwhile, Nazi Germany was claiming that captured Ju 52/3ms were just civilian transport aircraft. Right there, a contrast can be drawn between isolationists and the fakers of the Non-Intervention Committee.

Probably the most useful thing that Mexico could have done in 1936 would have been forming a conduit for 'dual-use' equipment. For aviation, here is a possible scenario:

The Mexican government arranges a deal with the Lockheed Aircraft Corporation for local final assembly of Electra 10-B airliners by a revived TNCA - the state-owned airframer. Engines could be purchased from France - in the form of the Hispano-Suiza 9Qdrs (ie: a supercharged 9Qr). Final users would be the Mexican government (VIP); state airline Mexicana (prestige-route feederliner); and FAM (light transport-bomber).

The latter would be given priority but the order is actually a cover for shipments to Republican Spain. The result would be a light-/medium-bomber with flight performance similar to the Martin 139 albeit with a much reduced bomb load.

 

[Avimimus]

If France had simply allowed exports to the Republic... it would have looked quite different.

 

[Apophenia]

If France had simply allowed exports to the Republic... it would have looked quite different.

Indeed. After the 06 Feb 1934 attempt to storm the Assemblée nationale, Léon Blum regarded fascism (especially the Action Française) as the primary danger facing France. In reality, the biggest threat was probably a lingering fear of another European trench war.

The Front populaire coalition government was willing to sneak equipment across the border while hiding behind the 1936 Non-Intervention Agreement. But it was fear of escalation that paralysed Paris.

 

[Avimimus]

I suppose you are referring only to domestic fascism within France (rather than German fascism which did act as a primary danger five years later)?

One wonders what would have happened without the Non-Intervention Agreement being in existence.

 

[RedLegion]

A number of smaller European air forces used the desperation of the Spanish Republic to off-load their obsolete military aircraft. In the case of Poland, that would include the surreptitious supply of 20 x PWS 10 parasol fighters as trainers, 4 x RWD-13 liaison aircraft, and 20 x Breguet XIX biplane recce-bombers. Better than nothing ... but what Madrid really wanted were PZL P.11 fighters which they tried to buy in autumn 1936.

So, one easy 'what-if' would be if Warsaw agreed to supplying those 36 x P.11c fighters requested by the Republicans. To sweeten things, Poland might even offer a lower-price sale of its 50 x used P.11a fighters - an earlier-model with a lower-powered Mercury IV S2 engine. If Madrid nibbled, Warsaw might also offer up some of its ~120 PZL P.7a fighters - with an airframe related to the P.11a but having an older, Jupiter engine.

The point for Poland would be the future sales advantage of direct combat experience for its gull-winged Puławski fighters (even that may just ground-attack in the older for the P.7a). Cash from those sales - especially for the older models - could be ploughed back into modernising the Polish air force's own fighter fleet - possibly advancing the introduction of the P.24-inspired P.11g Kobuz by a couple of years.

In this case, the British side must grant export approval due to the import of key engine components that were not manufactured in Poland.

There would have been a much higher chance of exporting the PZL P.24 equipped with Gnome-Rhône engines.

Assuming that the Polish side obtained British permission to export with Bristol engines, the PZL P.24 variant most likely wouldn’t have emerged at all, as Bristol engines would have been used for export aircraft instead of the GR units.This makes things even more interesting on the Polish side, as it would mean full-scale production of the PZL P.11c for export first, followed by a smooth transition to the PZL P.11g as soon as the Bristol Mercury VIII became available.

The Spanish side also expressed interest in the LWS-6 Żubr and PZL.37 Łoś bombers.

 

[Apophenia]

Good points. My understanding was that, from 1933, Polskie Zakłady Skody was building Mercury engines entirely from Polish parts. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the 10-year license agreement prohibited export of Skoda-built engines. (I'm not sure if that was a purely commercial concern on the part of Bristol or if the British government was also involved.)

I went with the P.11c in my scenario because that was what the Spanish government had wanted to order. Its not clear to me whether the Republicans knew about that export ban. If that ban became an insurmountable obstacle, I'd suspect that Madrid would be happy to switch to the P.24. An alternative would be a Spanish equivalent to the Romanian IAR P.11f - effectively a P.11c fitted with a single-row Gnome-Rhône 9Krse (which actually produced 40 hp more than a Polish-built Mercury VI S2)

 

[Apophenia]

I suppose you are referring only to domestic fascism within France (rather than German fascism which did act as a primary danger five years later)?

Yes, the reference was to a perceived internal political threat.

One wonders what would have happened without the Non-Intervention Agreement being in existence.

Indeed. Initially, probably nothing would change with either France or Britain ... their fear of escalation would remain. But, in future, the politicians wouldn't be able to wave their Non-Intervention Agreement paper around like an earlier version of "Peace in our time".

 

[RedLegion]

Good points. My understanding was that, from 1933, Polskie Zakłady Skody was building Mercury engines entirely from Polish parts. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the 10-year license agreement prohibited export of Skoda-built engines. (I'm not sure if that was a purely commercial concern on the part of Bristol or if the British government was also involved.)

I went with the P.11c in my scenario because that was what the Spanish government had wanted to order. Its not clear to me whether the Republicans knew about that export ban. If that ban became an insurmountable obstacle, I'd suspect that Madrid would be happy to switch to the P.24. An alternative would be a Spanish equivalent to the Romanian IAR P.11f - effectively a P.11c fitted with a single-row Gnome-Rhône 9Krse (which actually produced 40 hp more than a Polish-built Mercury VI S2)

In the autumn of 1935, the Spanish side sent a request for quotation regarding the purchase of 36 PZL P.11 or PZL P.24 fighters. If the Polish side had executed the export of these aircraft before 1936, there would have been a chance for subsequent deliveries. The older PZL P.7 models would have been dispatched first, followed by the PZL P.11s. However, this would have required a restructuring of production in Poland or larger capital investments somewhere between 1933 and 1935. This, in turn, would have enabled seamless fighter deliveries up until 1939.

 

[Apophenia]

Cool! I was not previously aware that Madrid was interested in the P.24 as an alternative.

My guess is that the Skoda-built Jupiter engines for P.7a fighters would face the same export restrictions from Bristol. But the P.7s could be re-engined with Gnome-Rhône Jupiters to get around that restriction.

FWIW, I'm working on profiles of Republican PZLs. Unfortunately, such what-ifs cannot be posted on SPF. But, once complete, I'll post a link here for Beyond the Sprues members.

 

[ayatsuji]

Companies like Texaco and Standard Oil exported to the Franco government during the Spanish Civil War; was there any possibility that aircraft manufacturers might have done the same?
At the time, the United States possessed aircraft such as the P-26 and P-35.
I am unsure if there was any real possibility of amending the Neutrality Acts.
or Would they have been able to smuggle it out?

 

[RedLegion]

Cool! I was not previously aware that Madrid was interested in the P.24 as an alternative.

My guess is that the Skoda-built Jupiter engines for P.7a fighters would face the same export restrictions from Bristol. But the P.7s could be re-engined with Gnome-Rhône Jupiters to get around that restriction.

FWIW, I'm working on profiles of Republican PZLs. Unfortunately, such what-ifs cannot be posted on SPF. But, once complete, I'll post a link here for Beyond the Sprues members.

I am not sure if such an operation would be physically viable and whether it wouldn't incur exorbitant costs. Keep in mind that aircraft from that era had a relatively short lifespan and were treated almost as disposable assets.
Here is my proposed timeline for this scenario:
Autumn 1935: The Spanish and Polish sides sign a contract for the delivery of 36 PZL P.11f fighters.
Spring 1936: The Polish side begins deliveries of older PZL P.7a fighters equipped with Jupiter engines. A subsequent agreement is signed for an additional 72 newer PZL P.24 fighters, along with a production license. To backfill its own fleet depleted by these exports, the Polish side greenlights the production of the PZL P.11g "Kobuz."
Summer 1936: Following the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War, and fearing the diplomatic backlash from France and Great Britain, Poland is forced to covertly manage parts of the operation. The licensing agreement is amended into a contract for additional direct aircraft deliveries.
1937: Deliveries of older PZL P.11s to Spain are underway; alongside them, a dozen or so PZL.23 Karaś light bombers are dispatched, though they yield mediocre results in combat. Financing their purchases with gold reserves, the Spanish side continues to buy additional PZL P.24s and PZL.37 Łoś bombers, while also expressing interest in the upcoming PZL.50 Jastrząb. This influx of capital allows for an ambitious expansion of Polish manufacturing plants, significantly boosting production capacity.
1938: First deliveries of the PZL P.24 and PZL P.11g reach Spanish units. However, due to the increasingly tense geopolitical situation in Central Europe, Warsaw artificially delays shipments, ultimately suspending the deliveries in the spring of 1938, excluding older airframes and spares.
1939: Thanks to the financial gains from the Spanish contract and the redirection of suspended deliveries originally meant for Madrid, the Polish side boasts a remarkably formidable fighter force by September 1939. Nearly half of the 240 available fighters consist of the newer PZL P.11g variant. Furthermore, over 80 PZL P.24j fighters are rapidly assembled from the remaining undelivered P.24 components and spare parts. The final two squadrons, stationed near Warsaw under the Commander-in-Chief’s Operational Reserve (OND), are equipped with the cutting-edge PZL.50 Jastrząb.

 

[papacavy]

Excellent speculation, gentlemen, thank you.

 

[Apophenia]

Tłumaczenie na język angielski (English Translation)
...

Works for me. (And love how this concept also bolsters the Polish AF in Sept 1939.)

1938: First deliveries of the PZL P.24 and PZL P.11g reach Spanish units...

One question though: How did Warsaw get around export restrictions on the Mercury engines for those P.11g fighters sent to Spain?

 

[RedLegion]

Works for me. (And love how this concept also bolsters the Polish AF in Sept 1939.)



One question though: How did Warsaw get around export restrictions on the Mercury engines for those P.11g fighters sent to Spain?

The only option is to deliver them secretly; any exports to Spain after the summer of 1936 would continue to irritate France and the UK.

Anything delivered except the first 36 PZL 11Fs would violate the Non-Intervention Agreement. Therefore, the shipment will be carried out secretly.

 

[Apophenia]

Companies like Texaco and Standard Oil exported to the Franco government during the Spanish Civil War; was there any possibility that aircraft manufacturers might have done the same?
At the time, the United States possessed aircraft such as the P-26 and P-35.
I am unsure if there was any real possibility of amending the Neutrality Acts.
or Would they have been able to smuggle it out?

I somehow missed this post

Since the US didn't sign the 1936 Non-Intervention Agreement, it was (as you suggest) only the 1937 Neutrality Act that held back shipments of American-made aircraft. The thing is, FDR's 'moral embargo' was applied solely to arms and ammunition.

I suppose that even had fuel shipments been covered by the Neutrality Act, it is going to be hard to trace the origin of said fuels after delivery (unlike a P-26 or P-35). Canada faced this when CCF-assembled Grumman G-23s were sold to 'Turkey' (according to export documents) but then delivered to Barcelona ...

 

[Apophenia]

...FWIW, I'm working on profiles of Republican PZLs. Unfortunately, such what-ifs cannot be posted on SPF. But, once complete, I'll post a link here for Beyond the Sprues members.

It took me longer than anticipated but I have now mounted my own version of the story of PZL fighters engaged in the Spanish Civil War. Since images with what-if markings are discouraged here on SPF, I have mounted my story with accompanying profiles over on Beyond the Sprues.

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11779.0

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