Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumph / SA-21 Growler TABM/SAM

Well if the Turks lose interest in the SA-21 Growler, use up their missiles stocks in training exercises and then dispose of the equipment (Perhaps selling it to the US along with some of the remaining SA-21s) then perhaps they'll get their F-35s.
 
Rickshaw said:
I wouldn't ignore Carlo Kopp, if I was you. I've known him now for about 15 years. He is a very smart man. Perhaps too smart for his own good. I do know he's pissed off a lot of people in the Australian DoD and RAAF with his well thought out and intelligent analysis of airpower matters.
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I wouldn't totally ignore him, but you should take what he writes with a large bag of salt.
 
Man looking back on the early posts on this thread, people were way to confident about things like s-300 and s-400 being able to detect, let alone shoot down something as small as an SDB.
 
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Is that the early-warning radar for an SA-21 Growler? Also it looks like it's been trashed by an AGM-88.
 
NMaude said:
Well if the Turks lose interest in the SA-21 Growler, use up their missiles stocks in training exercises and then dispose of the equipment (Perhaps selling it to the US along with some of the remaining SA-21s) then perhaps they'll get their F-35s.
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Considering that the "Stovepipe-400" is in semi-permanent storage at Mürted Air Base in Ankara (they sometimes move it outside to get some fresh air), I believe the best outcome would be to put it at EHTES (Electronic Warfare Test and Training Range) at Konya 3rd Main Jet Base. EHTES is one of the largest Electronic Warfare Test Ranges in Europe and holds several Russian anti-air systems, including S-300 PMU. KORAL EW System was also tested against Russian radars at EHTES during its development.
HAVELSAN EHTES.jpg
 
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NMaude said:
Is that the early-warning radar for an SA-21 Growler? Also it looks like it's been trashed by an AGM-88.
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There is no practical ARM for VHF band. It would have been some other means.

Forest Green said:
Are 48N6 missiles two piece or one piece?
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Single stage. The one which is 2 stages are 9M82/9M83 family for S-300V.
 
stealthflanker said:
NMaude said:
Is that the early-warning radar for an SA-21 Growler? Also it looks like it's been trashed by an AGM-88.
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There is no practical ARM for VHF band. It would have been some other means.

Forest Green said:
Are 48N6 missiles two piece or one piece?
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Single stage. The one which is 2 stages are 9M82/9M83 family for S-300V.
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VHF and UHF are so small bands that frankly they will be detected early by SIGINT and ELINT. The radars are so large and are mobile only to a certain extent. They could be a bad target for ballistic missiles however.
 
indicisivedivide said:
VHF and UHF are so small bands that frankly they will be detected early by SIGINT and ELINT. The radars are so large and are mobile only to a certain extent. They could be a bad target for ballistic missiles however.
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They do but they are not something one can make Anti Radiation Missile against at the moment.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Deleted posts about a Twitter video of an S-400 vehicle overtunred by the side of a road. It requires a Twitter account to view and frankly isn't very illuninating.
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I thought it raised an interesting question as regards whether the drivers also operate them.
 

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Forest Green said:
Looks like someone denied it area.
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I think you mean area denied it, anyway how valuable such target is (It's destruction puts the whole battery out of action) I suspect it had a visit from Uncle HIMARS;):D.

First documented loss of a Russian 55K6E mobile command post of the S-400 air defense system.It was reportedly destroyed during Ukrainian HIMARS strikes in late May 2023, somewhere in Kherson Oblast of Ukraine.
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Given the crippling and increasingly tightening sanctions Russia is under the mobile command unit will be very difficult, time-consuming and expensive to replace. Its destruction will hamper the local Russian anti-air defences in that part of the Cherson region.
 
BBCRF said:
Why does everyone believe that this is a car from the S-400.And not something else.There are a lot of such mobile command posts
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Because not everyone read the export brochure. The 55K6 family tho can and are used by several systems. Like it does attached to S-400 battalion but, it's not exclusive to it. Most likely Russians find it convenient to standardize using it to replace or supplement their older command post e.g Ranzhir.

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Even if it does attached to an S-400 battery it wont stop firing nor denied the battery target designation as the shooting elements have its own 92N6 radar and 96L6 search radar. It could however increase the risk of fractricide as destruction of the CP may deny the battery situational awareness provided by the 91N6 battle management radar. The other risk is "double-up" where 2 batteries engaged the same target which kind of waste of missiles.
 
stealthflanker said:
It could however increase the risk of fractricide as destruction of the CP may deny the battery situational awareness provided by the 91N6 battle management radar.
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I for one hope that this increases the rate of "Own Goal" shootdowns (Something which apparently has bee n a problem for the Russians since invaded Ukraine).

stealthflanker said:
The other risk is "double-up" where 2 batteries engaged the same target which kind of waste of missiles.
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Good! If it means they squander difficult to replace multi-million dollar SAMs then good job!
 
NMaude said:
I for one hope that this increases the rate of "Own Goal" shootdowns (Something which apparently has bee n a problem for the Russians since invaded Ukraine).
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So does the Ukrainian i think. That also include use of expired missiles which ended up hitting their own territory. But it's easy as one can simply blame Russia for that.

NMaude said:
Good! If it means they squander difficult to replace multi-million dollar SAMs then good job!
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Well i'm not sure if "Multimillion Dollar SAM missiles" are difficult to replace in Russia. Considering that Since the S-300P system entering service in 1978. Production of the missiles from 1978-1995 alone accounts for about 28000 missiles. This includes 5V55 variants and in 1980's maybe 1985 the 48N6 entering productions and they never stop. They received the first S-400 battalion afaik at 2010, and this battalion will have stocks of their own 48N6 missiles too. The production number can be well over 1000 at that point.
 
stealthflanker said:
Well i'm not sure if "Multimillion Dollar SAM missiles" are difficult to replace in Russia. Considering that Since the S-300P system entering service in 1978. Production of the missiles from 1978-1995 alone accounts for about 28000 missiles. This includes 5V55 variants and in 1980's maybe 1985 the 48N6 entering productions and they never stop. They received the first S-400 battalion afaik at 2010, and this battalion will have stocks of their own 48N6 missiles too. The production number can be well over 1000 at that point.
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But the Russians have been running through their stocks quickly especially as they've started to get low on modern cruise and ballistic missiles (AS-15s, SS-N-27s and SS-26s for example) modifying and using SA-10/12/20s as SSMs.
 
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stealthflanker said:
Considering that Since the S-300P system entering service in 1978. Production of the missiles from 1978-1995 alone accounts for about 28000 missiles.
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Sure, but a lot of those were for export and many have probably exceeded their shelf life. Russia doesn't have 28000 S-300s sitting on TELs.
 
sferrin said:
Sure, but a lot of those were for export and many have probably exceeded their shelf life.
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Good points and while the media has been focusing on Russia's latest designs they've mostly overlooked the fact that much of the stuff the Russians have been throwing at the Ukrainians is old Soviet-era stock which they are rapidly depleting, aside from old SA-10/12/20s for example they've been increasingly relying on the AS-4 Kitchen anti-ship missile used as cruise-missiles, the AS-4 is a 60 year old design.
 
NMaude said:
But the Russians have been running through their stocks quickly especially as they've started to get low on modern cruise and ballistic missiles (AS-15s, SS-N-27s and SS-26s for example) modifying and using SA-10/12/20s as SSMs.
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Low here is very relative term tho considering that the plant making them are still around. I'm also not sure about their use on say 48N6 or 5V55 as surface attack weapon. Considering Ukraine have similar missiles and they also have near lifetime expired stocks. The claim of use of those missiles used as surface attack weapon can be a cover for a failure of their own S-300's.


sferrin said:
Sure, but a lot of those were for export and many have probably exceeded their shelf life. Russia doesn't have 28000 S-300s sitting on TELs.
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Yeah but the thing is that they're still making those and maybe refurbish the old one. It's just a futile exercise to think "they're running out".

Maybe they will running out, really after some hundreds of such statements in social media.

NMaude said:
they've been increasingly relying on the AS-4 Kitchen anti-ship missile used as cruise-missiles, the AS-4 is a 60 year old design.
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The missile in fact was never retired tho. I dont think launching those would be a sign of they are running out of modern types.
 
stealthflanker said:
Yeah but the thing is that they're still making those and maybe refurbish the old one.
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Which has been a great deal harder due to the trade sanctions on Russian blocking their access to advanced western electronics components which they can't manufacture.
 
NMaude said:
Which has been a great deal harder due to the trade sanctions on Russian blocking their access to advanced western electronics components which they can't manufacture.
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I would not cling my hope on such tho. Considering Russians already under sanctions for quite long already yet not everyone in the world cutting trades with them.
 

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