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ALBM Projects (was: Er, Skybolt, the missile...)

CNH

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why are there all those fairings around the missile?
 

gtg947h

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CNH said:
why are there all those fairings around the missile?
Most likely to reduce drag while it's being carried.
 

martinbayer

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gtg947h said:
CNH said:
why are there all those fairings around the missile?
Most likely to reduce drag while it's being carried.
My guess is that the actual question was why there are eight separate fairing parts when (taking the apparently protruding cruciform fin arrangement into account) four fairing segments might have been completely sufficient (and resulted in fewer potential separation failure points and some weight savings as well).

Martin
 

Hobbes

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Or the question is why fairings along the entire rocket body, and not just on the nose and tail.
 

robunos

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Hobbes said:
Or the question is why fairings along the entire rocket body, and not just on the nose and tail.
Thermal protection?
The carrier aircraft is supersonic, so the missile is going to get 'warm'. By putting the thermal insulation on jettisonable fairings, the missile itself is not encumbered with the added weight. Likewise, the carrier aircraft doesn't need to carry an active thermal control system for the missile...

cheers,
Robin.
 

CJGibson

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Didn't the USAF plan to fit Skybolt to the B-58B?

Wouldn't those heat up?

Were they planned to have heat shields?

If Skybolt did heat up when carried externally on a supersonic aircraft, I wonder if that explains the internal carriage on the HS.1011 deterrent carrier?

Would the carrier aircraft (in this discussion the Minerva) be stooging around at subsonic speed poffler-style, then accelerate to launch point?

Would that dash to launch point heat the missile enough to require a heat shield?

Or would the Minerva be on QRA and fly supersonically to its launch point? Wasn't this how the Mirage IV operated?

That long supersonic flight probably would need some thermal protection.

Reminds me of Blue Steel and its four climates.

This could turn into an interesting discussion.

Chris
 

robunos

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I have to say that I have no idea of the mission profile of the Minerva (at least until the book comes out), but from the illustration, it doesn't appear to have the endurance for 'poffling'.
Regarding Skybolt on B-58B, take a look at the PDF presented in reply#31, upthread. It shows the design of the B-52 Skybolt pylon, and there, you'll find a 'Thermo-regulation Unit', to cool the missiles guidance system. So Skybolts were to be actively cooled during airborne carriage.

cheers,
Robin.
 

Grey Havoc

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XP67_Moonbat said:
So I'm almost at the end of Trimble's STRIKE FROM THE SEA. I came upon a reference to BuAer concepts thrown out toward the end of the Seamaster's career meant to show its' versatility.

In May 1957, BuAer proposed launching Regulus II missiles piggyback off the P6M-2 Seamaster. In January 1958, BuAer proposed a 14,000lb, 2-stagehypersonic boost-glide missile with 1000mi to be carried internally. range. That following Feb, it was also proposed to launch Corvus missiles from the mine bay.

It's the Regulus and BGV concepts that have my attention. Anyone else hear of either of these projects?

The book's cites The BuAer documenst Technical Feasibility and Operational Analysis of P6M-Regulus II Weapon System and A Preliminary Design Study Of an Air-To-Surface, Boost-Glide Missile System for the P6M Aircraft as a references.
 

fightingirish

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natewillcome4you

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The Soviets had an ALBM project called the Krechet designed to be launched from a Tu-160
 

FighterJock

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The Soviets had an ALBM project called the Krechet designed to be launched from a Tu-160
Interesting, I wonder if there is any information/pictures still around about the Krechet missile.[/QUOTE]
 
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Archibald

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We French had the Minerve program, I vaguely remember Breguet or Dassault similar projects...
 

Josh_TN

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The Chinese are apparently building a bomber launched ballistic missile. I had seen some bad drawings of this online and assumed it was fan boi generated material, but there have been recent photo releases of a 'H-6N' version that looks to pretty clearly have a recessed area with attachment points for ballistic missile carriage. The nomenclature for the missile is not known but it is said to be a lightened version of DF-21, presumably with the same warhead options.

 

Archibald

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It is unbelievable, what the Chinese have done of the plain old Tu-16 Badger. A tribute to the goodness of that aircraft design. Tupolev was an ar$e, but he knew how to design fine aircraft.
 

jsport

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and should be bought for new DARPA Warbreaker
 

sferrin

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It is unbelievable, what the Chinese have done of the plain old Tu-16 Badger. A tribute to the goodness of that aircraft design. Tupolev was an ar$e, but he knew how to design fine aircraft.
and should be bought for new DARPA Warbreaker
Better to build our own. It wouldn't be difficult. ATACMS or Zombie for example.

Orbital-ATK-completes-Zombie-Pathfinder-target-test-for-US-Army.jpg

Black-Dagger-Boosted-Zombie-Target-BZT.jpg
 

bobbymike

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Could you hang an upgraded Pershing II under the wing of a B-52?
Maybe but just to point out the W85 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W85) of the Pershing came in at 880lbs and the Pegasus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(rocket)) can put 997lbs into LEO so...

Randy
Speaking “same missile” LEO and surface to surface is there a basic rule of thumb for payload comparison?

I think an SS-18 has a ballistic throw weight of 8800kg but puts less than 2000kg into LEO.

I ask cause ATK proposed an all solid Antares with a 25k lbs LEO and was curious if used as a CPGS missile would its payload exceed 75k lbs +
 

RanulfC

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Speaking “same missile” LEO and surface to surface is there a basic rule of thumb for payload comparison?

I think an SS-18 has a ballistic throw weight of 8800kg but puts less than 2000kg into LEO.

I ask cause ATK proposed an all solid Antares with a 25k lbs LEO and was curious if used as a CPGS missile would its payload exceed 75k lbs +
A basic "rule-of-thumb" is probably out there but I just 'SWAG-ed' it really :) It's really a matter of the "warhead" mass being a lot more than just the actual 'warhead' to be useful. (Having your ALBM burn up on reentry because you couldn't fit in a heat shield would be embarrassing to say the least :) ) Reentry system, payload bus, guidance and control system, pen-aids, it all adds up. At a guess your value would be closer to accurate than mine was in an actual working sense at any rate. Likely it'd work for the CPGS role though it's a bit big and IIRC wasn't the suggested first stage a segmented solid design? (The military doesn't like those except maybe for SRBs)

Like the majority of CPGS concepts though it has the major issue of how does anyone else tell it's NOT a nuclear payload since telling people you're going to launch it is a bit of an issue and NOT telling people you're launching it is a MAJOR issue. I should probably add this applies to an ALBM as well.

Randy
 

CNH

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Good question. Almost certainly not, other than the use of a ramjet.

54.png
An early example of Photoshop, and it's not correct anyway. They seem to have 'forgotten' the 4 solid fuel boosters.
 

sferrin

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Not to pick nits but those aren't ALBMs. Just sayin'.
 

CNH

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True. But I didn't say they were. I merely said ' a similar idea'.
 

Kadija_Man

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Why would they need boosters when you have the added velocity of the aircraft carrying the missile? Boosters were required on the ground, well 'cause the missile was launched from a standing start, not near Mach 1.
 

RLBH

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Why would they need boosters when you have the added velocity of the aircraft carrying the missile? Boosters were required on the ground, well 'cause the missile was launched from a standing start, not near Mach 1.
Depends on the ramjet performance characteristics; ramjet thrust increases with increasing speed, so the smallest possible ramjet would need boosting to a fairly high speed before it generated enough thrust to overcome drag. Even if it could provide enough thrust, it may have been inefficient, meaning that boosters gave better performance despite the increased weight and drag.
 

Maiwand1880

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As part of the Minerve programme that ran between 1962 and 1964 and looked into alternatives to the triad that was being developed (Mirage-IVA, SNLE SSBN with MSBS SLBM, and the S-series IRBM/ICBM), a strategic bomber derivative of the Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic MPA was considered, the Breguet Br.1190 (higher MTOW and stronger wings, more powerful version of the RR Tyne, longer bomb-bay, longer nose, different navigation and communication systems). It was to carry an ALBM, and fly long-endurance low-altitude patrols over the Bay of Biscay (with flight refuelling). The ALBM was to be developed by MATRA as the M.600. Minerve considered many other possibilities (such as long-range ramjet-powered ALCM, etc.) In the end, the triad went on as planned, the Mirage-IVA being operational in 1964, the two ballistic missile systems in 1971.
 
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