Airlines Facing Coronavirus Crisis of their own

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Humans are the best possible host for a virus to reproduce in. We are plentiful, move around the planet at speed, and live closely together. Cities are ideal infection vectors. I don't think we need pseudoscience to explain that.
 
In case anyone doesn't understand viral reproduction, a virus is basically a chunk of DNA (RNA in some cases) inside a protein sheaf, it does not contain the cell organelles necessary to reproduce itself. All it can do is sit there until it bumps onto a receptor on the outside of a cell that matches its own proteins. At that point the DNA strand is injected into the cell and repurposes the cell to produce copies of that DNA and wrap them in protein sheaves. Eventually it produces so many copies that the cell bursts, releasing them to bump into other cells.
 
Growing doesn't mean having reproductive activity normally, elsewhere than on the internet ;)
 
Given some of us have close relatives who have tested positive perhaps try to cut out conspiracy theories ?
 
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www.theguardian.com

Airlines accused of 'cashing in' on flights for stranded Britons

Travellers are complaining of high penalties charged to change flights due to closed borders
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

This article doesn't mention it, but there seems to be a particular problem with Peru, with marooned passengers quoted £3,000 or more for a flight to Europe by Avianca, when the normal rate is under £1,000. I think I saw £5,000 for a flight to Australia as well.
 
DWG said:
TomcatViP said:
Growing doesn't mean having reproductive activity normally, elsewhere than on the internet ;)
Click to expand...

Viruses don't grow, period.
Click to expand...

Viruses are less "simple organisms" than they are "organic mechanisms." Almost certainly viruses are later developments than bacteria, since bacteria can survive and reproduce and thrive in an environment of nothing but basic chemicals, but for a virus to do *anything* it needs a cell to parasitize.
 
Ground stop at NYC after a trainee controller is diagnosed with coronavirus. FAA redeploying controllers to cover. (buried in the Guardian's live coverage).
 
Current theory has it virus and bacteria evolved in parallel.
I could point to sites of scientific journals, but they are all behind paywalls.
So: wikipedia has a rather nice entry on viral evolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_evolution
This general entry is quite good too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus
Both entries can be checked for accuracy by visiting the libraries of the nearest university.

So say I, Arjen de Bruine, M.Sc. in biology, University of Amsterdam, 1986

  • Coevolution hypothesis (Bubble Theory): At the beginning of life, a community of early replicons (pieces of genetic information capable of self-replication) existed in proximity to a food source such as a hot spring or hydrothermal vent. This food source also produced lipid-like molecules self-assembling into vesicles that could enclose replicons. Close to the food source replicons thrived, but further away the only non-diluted resources would be inside vesicles. Therefore, evolutionary pressure could push replicons along two paths of development: merging with a vesicle, giving rise to cells; and entering the vesicle, using its resources, multiplying and leaving for another vesicle, giving rise to viruses.[13]
  • Chimeric-origins hypothesis: Based on the analyses of the evolution of the replicative and structural modules of viruses, a chimeric scenario for the origin of viruses was proposed in 2019.[6] According to this hypothesis, the replication modules of viruses originated from the primordial genetic pool, although the long course of their subsequent evolution involved many displacements by replicative genes from their cellular hosts. By contrast, the genes encoding major structural proteins evolved from functionally diverse host proteins throughout the evolution of the virosphere.[6] This scenario is distinct from each of the three traditional scenarios but combines features of the Virus-first and Escape hypotheses.
Click to expand...
 
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Interesting, but anything to do with the hypothesis you offered before? Viral reproduction/growth on airborne particles? This is about in which conditions viruses retain the ability to infect.
Abstract:
Influenza incidence and seasonality, along with virus survival and transmission, appear to depend at least partly on humidity, and recent studies have suggested that absolute humidity (AH) is more important than relative humidity (RH) in modulating observed patterns. In this perspective article, we re-evaluate studies of influenza virus survival in aerosols, transmission in animal models and influenza incidence to show that the combination of temperature and RH is equally valid as AH as a predictor. Collinearity must be considered, as higher levels of AH are only possible at higher temperatures, where it is well established that virus decay is more rapid. In studies of incidence that employ meteorological data, outdoor AH may be serving as a proxy for indoor RH in temperate regions during the wintertime heating season. Finally, we present a mechanistic explanation based on droplet evaporation and its impact on droplet physics and chemistry for why RH is more likely than AH to modulate virus survival and transmission.
 
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Arjen said:
Abstract:
Click to expand...

TLDR for those who don't read biologist: temperature+relative humidity is at least as valid as absolute humidity as a model of viral survival half-life on water droplets expelled by humans. Existing models based on absolute humidity may be wrong because in temperate regions in winter the effects are similar as outdoor absolute humidity and indoor relative humidity are linked, while infection likely occurs indoors. Physical model to explain this provided.

No mention of reproduction, no mention of Nox, no mention of high altitude.
 
While conspiracy theories are fine in the correct setting and at the right time, we need to listen to instructions and reduce/turn back the rate of infection. Given time we can develop a tolerance as we do with other flu variations. Losing our heads and panic buying food etc is a negative side to us. I hope we as a species can grow a bit and do the right thing so we can get back to where we were in time. I wish you all the very best and good health. You and yours.
 
Arjen said:
Interesting, but anything to do with the hypothesis you offered before? Viral reproduction/growth on airborne particles? This is about in which conditions viruses retain the ability to infect.
Abstract:
Influenza incidence and seasonality, along with virus survival and transmission, appear to depend at least partly on humidity, and recent studies have suggested that absolute humidity (AH) is more important than relative humidity (RH) in modulating observed patterns. In this perspective article, we re-evaluate studies of influenza virus survival in aerosols, transmission in animal models and influenza incidence to show that the combination of temperature and RH is equally valid as AH as a predictor. Collinearity must be considered, as higher levels of AH are only possible at higher temperatures, where it is well established that virus decay is more rapid. In studies of incidence that employ meteorological data, outdoor AH may be serving as a proxy for indoor RH in temperate regions during the wintertime heating season. Finally, we present a mechanistic explanation based on droplet evaporation and its impact on droplet physics and chemistry for why RH is more likely than AH to modulate virus survival and transmission.
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Yes,

The study was done at variable temperature but cte pressure conditions.

Changes_in_Relative_Humidity.png

Particule emmission generates aerosol like masses of air where bacteria and viruses proliferate (by also being a vector for ambiant to host transport). The shielding effect of saturated masses of air tends to increases lower atmosphere temperature leading them to accent higher & faster. Once at alt, Nox decomposition into Sulfure based products and N2 germinate the volume of air offering condition for a growth in bacteria and viruses. Once the air has cooled by trading heat with the ambiant the mass of air fall back on the surface, increasing pressure with its correlated rise in Relative humidity that is known for virus proliferation.

It's possible that lower pressure at altitude and the increases in substrate modify also the virus itself (it proliferate at different conditions when it is known that virus due to their relative simplicity adapt to their environment).

Drafted while tip toeing the best I can ;)
 
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A virus may better retain the ability to infect under certain conditions; a virus may spread over greater distances in the longer interval afforded by those conditions. What does not happen - ever - is for new viruses to appear by replication outside a host cell.

Why are you introducing bacteria in this discussion? There are no bacteria that grow solely on NOx, water droplets/vapour and air.
[edit] Unless you are referring to cyanobacteria - but they depend on light for photosynthesis to survive. There is no light available inside the human body, so cyanobacteria will not wreak havoc by replicating there. Drifting further off topic...
 
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Arjen said:
[edit] Unless you are referring to cyanobacteria - but they depend on light for photosynthesis to survive. There is no light available inside the human body, so cyanobacteria will not wreak havoc by replicating there. Drifting further off topic...
Click to expand...

There is no know human bodies stacked up there in the higher layers of the atmosphere. At least to my own knowledge!?!

I think you did not understand the (hastily) sketched scheme of this theory. But I am not starting a conversation around this. If someone think it's a valid theory and want to populate it with more refined concepts, it's here for that only.

Back to topic:

simpleflying.com

Canada Sends 36 Year Old Boeing 737 To Rescue Citizens From Morocco

Earlier today, a Boeing 737-200 took off from Shannon on route to Casablanca in Morocco. The Nolinor Aviation…
simpleflying.com simpleflying.com
 
And how to see this as an opportunity to make ATS as a whole more resilient:

Clearly the aviation and the shipping industry need to urgently adopt a better global tracking and data system [think MH370]. With many planes and cruise ships currently sidelined due to the coronavirus, it would seem a perfect time to update their tracking and monitoring systems.
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investorintel.com

Star Navigation Systems technology can be installed now while planes are grounded due to coronavirus

Did you know that at any given time 200-300 planes can be off the grid when flying and no-one knows […]
investorintel.com investorintel.com
 
TomcatViP said:
Once at alt, Nox decomposition into Sulfure based products and N2 germinate the volume of air offering condition for a growth in bacteria and viruses. Once the air has cooled by trading heat with the ambiant the mass of air fall back on the surface, increasing pressure with its correlated rise in Relative humidity that is known for virus proliferation.
Click to expand...

Once more. Viruses do not grow. It is a physical impossibility. They either exist statically outside of a cell, or they reproduce inside of a cell. And you have already said you are not talking about reproduction.

The paper you cite states it is modelling virus survival (not 'growth', not reproduction) in the temperature range found in a temperate winter (above 13C - explicitly ruling out high altitude), where outdoor Absolute Humidity and indoor Relative Humidity move in parallel (indoors also ruling out high altitude), and that linking virus survival half-life to outdoor absolute humidity is a false comparison. You're trying to argue it supports some wild high altitude hypothesis, even though applying it to high altitude means you have to throw out every assumption the paper is based on AND all of its conclusions, AND that viruses just don't work that way.
 
TomcatViP said:
There is no know human bodies stacked up there in the higher layers of the atmosphere. At least to my own knowledge!?!
Click to expand...
Just pointing out why cyanobacteria are the unlikeliest kind of organism to replicate inside a human body. Any bacteria replicating, suspended at altitude - no way. There is nothing to feed on up there for allotrophic bacteria, cyanobacteria do not survive there.
TomcatViP said:
If someone think it's a valid theory and want to populate it with more refined concepts, it's here for that only.
Click to expand...
This 'theory' is contrary to all I have been taught about viruses at university. I have kept up with the subject since I earned my degree, and know of nothing to support your 'theory'. Viruses replicate in host cells. Nowhere else.
 
Deposition rates of viruses and bacteria above the atmospheric boundary layer:

Abstract
Aerosolization of soil-dust and organic aggregates in sea spray facilitates the long-range transport of bacteria, and likely
viruses across the free atmosphere. Although long-distance transport occurs, there are many uncertainties associated with
their deposition rates. Here, we demonstrate that even in pristine environments, above the atmospheric boundary layer, the
downward flux of viruses ranged from 0.26 × 109 to >7 × 109 m−2 per day. These deposition rates were 9–461 times greater
than the rates for bacteria, which ranged from 0.3 × 107 to >8 × 107 m−2 per day. The highest relative deposition rates for
viruses were associated with atmospheric transport from marine rather than terrestrial sources. Deposition rates of bacteria
were significantly higher during rain events and Saharan dust intrusions, whereas, rainfall did not significantly influence
virus deposition. Virus deposition rates were positively correlated with organic aerosols <0.7 μm, whereas, bacteria were
primarily associated with organic aerosols >0.7 μm, implying that viruses could have longer residence times in the
atmosphere and, consequently, will be dispersed further. These results provide an explanation for enigmatic observations
that viruses with very high genetic identity can be found in very distant and different environments.
Click to expand...

Also (Pg5 of the attached doc) :
Based on what could be detached by washing in
buffer and mechanical forces, ~69% of viruses and ~97% of
bacteria deposited from the atmosphere were attached to
dust or organic aggregates (Fig. 2a, b; Table S1

—---------------------/
results indicate that relative to bac-
teria, proportionally more viruses are attached to the
smallest airborne organic particles; consequently, their
atmospheric residence time will be longer than that of
bacteria, which were associated with larger aerosols. These
results agree with data showing that aerosols containing
bacteria have aerodynamic diameters up to 7 μm [14, 44]).
Click to expand...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Deposition rates of viruses and bacteria above the atmospheric boundary layer

Aerosolization of soil-dust and organic aggregates in sea spray facilitates the long-range transport of bacteria, and likely viruses across the free atmosphere. Although long-distance transport occurs, there are many uncertainties associated with their ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In other words, confinement is not all about preventing person to person contagion...
 

Attachments

  • 41396_2017_Article_42.pdf
    1.9 MB · Views: 2
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I would suggest contributors think about the insensitivity and potential impact (and questionable ethicality and responsibility) of propagating highly questionable information/ potential pseudoscience at this sensitive time.
 
Your original hypothesis:
TomcatViP said:
There is a plausible hypothesis that the Coronavirus use gas emission as a vector for transmission. Difficult to assert with a single line post but most hit places are city center with a lot of particles emissions. It won't be supernatural for a virus to grow on Nox reactions at altitude and then travel on particles.

If someone would have made a link, he would have lock-down people to prevent them to drive their dusty diesel and prevent population with weak respiratory systems to inhale potentially charged volume of air.


Tiny but fits.
Click to expand...

1) Viral growth on Nox reactions at altitude
2) Dispersal on airborne particles

Item 2): granted. Although highly unlikely to involve particles in Diesel exhaust, even if somebody infected sneezes on the exhaust with the engine running.
Item 1): No. Way.
 
Pg 8 of the above cited document:

results indicate that relative to bac-
teria, proportionally more viruses are attached to the
smallest airborne organic particles; consequently, their
atmospheric residence time will be longer than that of
bacteria, which were associated with larger aerosols. These
results agree with data showing that aerosols containing
bacteria have aerodynamic diameters up to 7 μm [14, 44]).
Click to expand...

Dust particules from improperly diesel engine reaction have contaminated most of the lower layer of European cities (where diesel largely became popular) , peripheral suburbs and country side (air masses tends to migrate also!).

That you'll know, there is also 10x more Nox emission expelled from the latest Diesel engines than some decade old petrol equivalents. But we can put that aside for now and focus on particles.

More troubles are certainly ahead. Although with another kind of Virus...
 
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Yes, dispersal on airborne particles, I grant you that. Just not on Diesel Particulate Matter, the composition of which is singularly unfriendly to any kind of life - soot and assorted carcinogens.

NOx overload of the environment will cause all kinds of harmful effects.
Viral. Growth. Is. Not. One. Of. Them.
 
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It doesn't matter first:
The study above state specifically that saharian sands are the vector responsible for virus deposits elsewhere in the world by the BILLIONS per sqm.
The size of particles, their hardness relatively to biological matter the fact that no cell organism are impermeable to it make them powerful enough to alter cells found in respiratory organs, travel trough soft tissues like brain or breast altering not only physically but also imparting Psychological behavior modal change on group of individuals etc...

Screenshot_20200322_162511.jpg

Second:
Nox reaction at altitude with ozone have byproducts compatible with early cells and bacteria (your topic now).

Edit: go to next page (top) to reach more information
 
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Hey my boss reacted - at least ! And well... I was right to take a sick leave, kidnap my laptop, and work from home. My younger coleague will be send to the company home base, in another city 300 miles north. That is, they keep working. Even in the eye of the storm. Dear God.

Meanwhile my homeplace, Nouvelle Aquitaine, which was one of the last places with fewer cases of the flu, is now giving up to the pressure. Presently locked at home, didn't saw anybody else than my wife and kid, locked with me, for a week. My mom is safe, my sisters too.

this world is crazy.
 
www.politico.com

Dems seize on 'slush fund' to oppose Republican rescue package

Senate Democrats ripped a GOP proposal to give the Trump administration $500 billion in funds for companies with little oversight.
www.politico.com www.politico.com
As Senate Democrats went to the floor Sunday night to vote — the first time they’d been there in days — they had one thing on their minds: a secret “slush fund” for Corporate America.

That’s what Democrats are calling a $500 billion “Exchange Stabilization Fund” included in the massive Senate GOP proposal to rescue the U.S. economy from the coronavirus crisis. The fund, which would come under the control of Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, is designed to aid distressed industries. It includes $58 billion for U.S. airline and air cargo companies, a source of significant controversy during the last three days of closed-door talks between senators of both parties and the White House.
Click to expand...
 
Grey Havoc said:
www.politico.com

Dems seize on 'slush fund' to oppose Republican rescue package

Senate Democrats ripped a GOP proposal to give the Trump administration $500 billion in funds for companies with little oversight.
www.politico.com www.politico.com
As Senate Democrats went to the floor Sunday night to vote — the first time they’d been there in days — they had one thing on their minds: a secret “slush fund” for Corporate America.

That’s what Democrats are calling a $500 billion “Exchange Stabilization Fund” included in the massive Senate GOP proposal to rescue the U.S. economy from the coronavirus crisis. The fund, which would come under the control of Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, is designed to aid distressed industries. It includes $58 billion for U.S. airline and air cargo companies, a source of significant controversy during the last three days of closed-door talks between senators of both parties and the White House.
Click to expand...
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every time I read this man name, I'm reminded of this > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin (runs for cover)
 
www.flightglobal.com

Trading of Boeing shares halted, company suspends Washington production after employee dies

Trading of Boeing's shares has been halted as the company announces it will suspend production in the Puget Sound region of Washington state for at least two weeks.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com

TLDR: Trading in Boeing shares suspended as the company announces a two week halt in production in Washington after an employee on the 787 line died of coronavirus. An employee at the South Carolina 787 line has also tested positive. Employees who can't work from home will get 10 days of paid leave.
 
Dear God... Boeing bite the dust hard, second huge blow in one year. Dang. Luckily that duopoly with Airbus mean, none of the two can be allowed to disapear and leave the other in a situation of monopoly.
 
Let's get high like a Californian bear!

In a newsletter posted last Friday, the Flight School Association of North America (FSANA) offered context to the stay-at-home executive order generated on March 19 by California Governor Gavin Newsom. The governor’s message in part said, “The federal government has identified 16 critical infrastructure sectors whose assets, systems and networks, whether physical or virtual, are considered so vital to the United States that their incapacitation or destruction would have a debilitating effect on security, economic security, public health or safety, or any combination thereof. I order that Californians working in these 16 critical infrastructure sectors may continue their work because of the importance of these sectors to Californians’ health and well-being.”
FSANA’s newsletter included links to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s Cyber Security and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) which identifies the 16 sectors and their related businesses. Under the Transportation Systems Sector page, the agency said, “the aviation mode includes commercial and recreational aircraft (manned and unmanned) and a wide-variety of support services, such as aircraft repair stations, fueling facilities, navigation aids, and flight schools.”
Click to expand...


www.flyingmag.com

Flight Training Industry Deciphers Shelter-in-Place Orders - FLYING Magazine

On March 22, Michigan, Ohio and Louisiana joined Illinois, New York, Delaware, Connecticut, California and Oregon as states that have ordered residents to remain in their homes as the nation wrestles with the deadly COVID-19-inducing Coronavirus. The illness can be spread when an infected...
www.flyingmag.com www.flyingmag.com
 
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Been out in the garden the last two afternoons (lovely weather here in the UK) and it's very noticeable there are hardly any aircraft in the sky. Never more than one in sight, and no more than couple of fading contrails.

Which considering I sit under the main route from London to the continent.... Not seen anything like it since the Eyjafjallajökull eruption.
 
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