AI art and creative content creation

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Justo Miranda said:
To get rid of the garbage, you can do three things: concentrate it all in one place, throw it over the fence in your neighbor's garden, or spread it in all directions by means of a large fan. Civilized societies use the first solution, anti-establishment use the second, and governments that are about to lose an election use the third. Hollywood has become a master at using all three procedures. Executives or executables?
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Have you ever dealt with Hollywood? I mean, do you know real Hollywood executives? Have you dealt with any? It's all about the money, followed by more money. Your comments are just disgruntled bad analogies.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Like Hollywood. Just *cheaper,* with the potential to be vastly more widespread.

Hollywood types also liked to talk smack about video games. But games have the potential for income of a scale to dwarf the greatest Hollywood blockbusters. AI creations will likely take movies and make them interactive (as interactive as the "viewer" might want) in ways akin t video games. Straighforward movies will likely end up the province of low budget artsy types who make the movies just because they want to, not because they think there's a megamillions market for them.

"Fortnite" has made twenty BILLION dollars. That's money that could have gone to movies and TV shows... but didn't. Those are ears and eyeballs that could have spent those hours devoted to non-interactive broadcast entertainment product, but didn't.
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Widespread? You mean just like junky, unreadable ebooks?
 
Kat Tsun said:
Scribes are actually quite common in the medical field. Speaking of...

You'd agree that engineers and doctors don't require gatekeeping, then, too? If one industry appeals to the lowest common, they all do, eventually. Doctors already get passed through medical school without firm grasps of fundamentals and basic medical sign knowledge. Plenty of engineers at Tesla can't seem to make very good cars, either, and have managed to fall behind SLS at every turn with their Moon rocket.

You could easily replace them with an advanced AI, which I'm sure you agree would be good, regardless of the social consequences? You can't sue an AI, after all, which is surely a good thing.

It's fairly pedestrian a statement to claim that opening things which require skills, whether photographic, painterly, mathematical, or medical, should be done with caution at best. Unless your goal is to see humans return to a broadly menial labor focused society with extremely small numbers of specialists and wealthy landed aristocrats, I guess, but I suppose that is the goal of people like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk.

One thing that is certainly difficult for AI is interaction with the tangible, real world. We'll always need berry pickers, assembly line workers, and ditch diggers. Engineers, artisans, and historians rather less, though surgeons and barbers will likely be safe, but their help may become AI. So yes, it is certainly lamentable that human talent and basic investments in learning are being so watered down that even rocket engineers and historians may eventually be forced to become strawberry pickers or supermarket greeters.

That's not exactly a system that people are going to support, for one thing.
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You can't sue an AI? Sure you can. That's why legislation that calls (non) social media a threat is being passed. If Billy and Bonny are affected by AI junk, then the legal types will go after it.
 
edwest4 said:
Modernity? You call this modern? A bunch of people getting very little exercise in exchange for giving computer game makers their money? I totally get that there are >>> some <<< circumstances where vegging out is needed, but not everybody is so undisciplined that they'll just forget about taking care of themselves. The wife is not going to be happy if you neglect your housework because you're online playing some game at some odd hour.
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And that's where all those precious little murderous incel snowflakes come from - Darwinism hard at work in overtime :D!
 
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martinbayer said:
I, for one, welcome the first fully crowd sourced interplanetary reusable crewed spacecraft! Because, you know, the wisdom of the masses...
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Orionblamblam said:
There's an important difference between the arts and STEM: if you make bad art, few people get hurt.




This seems to be by design in many cases.



SpaceX hasn't spent *near* as many taxpayer billions as SLS, nor as many thousands of man-years..
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As a victim of "bad art exposure," I want access to the billions of dollars in that trust fund because the makers of bad art k n e w it would have a bad effect on people and did nothing to stop it.
 
Kat Tsun said:
Scribes are actually quite common in the medical field. Speaking of...

You'd agree that engineers and doctors don't require gatekeeping, then, too? If one industry appeals to the lowest common, they all do, eventually. Doctors already get passed through medical school without firm grasps of fundamentals and basic medical sign knowledge. Plenty of engineers at Tesla can't seem to make very good cars, either, and have managed to fall behind SLS at every turn with their Moon rocket.

You could easily replace them with an advanced AI, which I'm sure you agree would be good, regardless of the social consequences? You can't sue an AI, after all, which is surely a good thing.

It's fairly pedestrian a statement to claim that opening things which require skills, whether photographic, painterly, mathematical, or medical, should be done with caution at best. Unless your goal is to see humans return to a broadly menial labor focused society with extremely small numbers of specialists and wealthy landed aristocrats, I guess, but I suppose that is the goal of people like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk.

One thing that is certainly difficult for AI is interaction with the tangible, real world. We'll always need berry pickers, assembly line workers, and ditch diggers. Engineers, artisans, and historians rather less, though surgeons and barbers will likely be safe, but their help may become AI. So yes, it is certainly lamentable that human talent and basic investments in learning are being so watered down that even rocket engineers and historians may eventually be forced to become strawberry pickers or supermarket greeters.

That's not exactly a system that people are going to support, for one thing.
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"Doctors already get passed through medical school without firm grasps of fundamentals and basic medical sign knowledge." That's crap and you know it. I worked at a hospital. You don't slide on by with minimal knowledge. I saw the residents in the halls with the new interns. "Here are the patient's symptoms. Who can give me a diagnosis?" You cannot, by which I mean, >cannot< just guess. Too many wrong guesses and they will throw you out.
 
Kat Tsun said:
The rather sordid, bloody history of propaganda, libel, and populist revolutions would disagree, perhaps most especially in France, but I digress. Naturally, capacities for harm by incompetent people using tools they don't understand, working in positions they don't belong, didn't stop people from lowering standards for engineers or doctors, either.



Which is weird that you're celebrating it in one case and despairing in the other.

If you truly believe in the power of "the masses" you should be welcoming the coming era of DIY engineering, medicine, and mission planning as much as you're welcoming the coming era of low quality pulps, homogeneous artworks, and incomprehensible storytelling. If a committee of a thousand people (at most) can get a rocket ship to the Moon in a mere 11 years on the first go, imagine how much faster and better and more democratic a committee of a million or ten million might be capable of, after all.

AI will enable even the most innumerate, least knowledgeable persons to meaningfully contribute to the Mars mission of the future. Of course, whether those contributions are good or bad, smart or silly, who can say. But as a firm believer in "the masses" I'm sure you fall on the side of it being only beneficial.

At least, that would be consistent with what you're applying to human artists, anyway.



Moonshots aren't measured by their cost effectiveness.
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>> Sound of applause << The voice of reason. Thank you. Thank you. Many thanks.

Hopefully, a few Communist/Anarchist/Miscreant types who only believe in "power to the people" will hear you.*

* Right on...
 
Orionblamblam said:
A poorly made movie will not explode. A poorly made jetliner may well fall out of the sky. That's the difference.


Example: I fully support the DIY gunsmiths who are spreading the gospel of home-made (often 3D printed) firearms. I would love to see this spread around the world, especially to uncivilized regions where firearms are illegal. Incorporating AI into that will result in better, stronger, safer and more reliable 3D printed firearms that anyone can make at home. Who doesn't want that? Tyrants and villains, that's who.

AI have already done a lot of work in cranking out bajillions of new theoretical chemical compounds such as nerve agents. That's not so great... but sufficiently advanced and powerful AI will be able to ponder the concept of cures for cancer and reversing aging and the like. A million AI's pondering the subject and then comparing notes should do magnificent work.

Of course some jackass will have his AI pondering some 100% fatal airborne pathogen, but hopefully even more AI will be working on cures and antidotes.



Indeed! Now, instead of a million people trying to design a ship, imagine a million AI doing it.

I don't see how. AI will do the contributing.


Once there are a number of them, they will be. Trans-Atlantic flights are more incomprehensible to Columbus than moonshots are to us, and jetliners are very definitely measured by cost effectiveness.
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I want access to the billions of dollars of compensation earmarked for victims of bad movie exposure. They knew that movie was bad but released it anyway. I mean, they have pre-screenings for crying out loud. They show people these bad movies BEFORE they get released. I think I have a strong case...
 
edwest4 said:
Have you ever dealt with Hollywood? I mean, do you know real Hollywood executives? Have you dealt with any? It's all about the money, followed by more money. Your comments are just disgruntled bad analogies.
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I'm not interested in the gears of the machine, only the results, it's been a long time since I've seen a good film and it was French. Of course I'm disgusted like when they changed the menu of my favorite restaurant to junk food.:(
 
martinbayer said:
So humans = trash? El caudillo taught you well, young padawan - now let me know how you feel about applying the term "vermin" to people...
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That's a malicious observation that makes a link between two different conversations: one about Hollywood trash and the other about human trafficking. The Caudillo had a personal escort made up of Muslims.That made the job of the snippers very difficult.
 

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edwest4 said:
That's why pro football players get paid big money and people take the time to watch them. In case you missed it, that's why they're called P R O. Got it? You have this total disdain for professionals. Especially professional creatives.
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This *continues* to be a major problem for you: recognizing a trend does not equate to *promoting* that trend. Me warning you that you're going to drive off a cliff is not celebrating you driving off the cliff.

AI is going to replace virtually *everybody.* It's just coming for the "creatives" first.

That you so vehemently refuse to even acknowledge the issue, to the point where you see someone warning you about it as some sort of morally deficient villain, indicates that when it hits you, it'll hit you *hard.*

edwest4 said:
You also >appear< to think that a large number of idiots can solve a problem - a sort of magical 'critical mass.' Trust me, if a room full of people doesn't get it, twice that many will still not get it.
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Reality disagrees. I the wake of 9-11, the feds started a problem using just that sort of thing to predict future terrorist attacks. The program seemed to be working until people freaked out about "gambling on terrorism" and the program got yanked. "The Invisible Hand" operates in many areas.
 
edwest4 said:
Not my point and you know it. Those people playing for fun are not paid the big bucks P R O athletes get. P R O. Get used to it.
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The people playing video games at home aren't paid the big bucks, true. But they're also not paying the "pros" of whatever field the games are replicating. If TV was the only option, if video games didn't exist, then the pros playing games on TV (or play-acting on TV) would be getting more eyeballs and bigger paychecks. And if TV didn't exist, then more people would be going to the movies, and movies would be making a lot more money.
 
Justo Miranda said:
I'm not interested in the gears of the machine, only the results, it's been a long time since I've seen a good film and it was French. Of course I'm disgusted like when they changed the menu of my favorite restaurant to junk food.:(
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The restaurant thing was all Wall Street's fault. Junk food has a higher profit margin. More bad news. Your restaurant is now owned by a hedge fund based in New Jersey...
 
Orionblamblam said:
The people playing video games at home aren't paid the big bucks, true. But they're also not paying the "pros" of whatever field the games are replicating. If TV was the only option, if video games didn't exist, then the pros playing games on TV (or play-acting on TV) would be getting more eyeballs and bigger paychecks. And if TV didn't exist, then more people would be going to the movies, and movies would be making a lot more money.
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Depend, depend. In 2021 DOTA world competition, winning team got a 40 million dollar prize.
 
Justo Miranda said:
That's a malicious observation that makes a link between two different conversations: one about Hollywood trash and the other about human trafficking. The Caudillo had a personal escort made up of Muslims.That made the job of the snippers very difficult.
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Justo Miranda said:
That's a malicious observation that makes a link between two different conversations: one about Hollywood trash and the other about human trafficking. The Caudillo had a personal escort made up of Muslims.That made the job of the snippers very difficult.
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Please, stop clutching your pearls - you're the one who yammered about closing the back door illustrated by a crowded boat.
 
Orionblamblam said:
This *continues* to be a major problem for you: recognizing a trend does not equate to *promoting* that trend. Me warning you that you're going to drive off a cliff is not celebrating you driving off the cliff.

AI is going to replace virtually *everybody.* It's just coming for the "creatives" first.

That you so vehemently refuse to even acknowledge the issue, to the point where you see someone warning you about it as some sort of morally deficient villain, indicates that when it hits you, it'll hit you *hard.*



Reality disagrees. I the wake of 9-11, the feds started a problem using just that sort of thing to predict future terrorist attacks. The program seemed to be working until people freaked out about "gambling on terrorism" and the program got yanked. "The Invisible Hand" operates in many areas.
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Come on! Tell me. How much is the AI Lobby paying you to post this stuff? You are not w a r n i n g me about anything. I go to work and among the first things I do is check the trade press. All of the trade press. I have to keep up with everything. My hobbies include keeping up with technology developments. For some unknown reason, it appears that the concept of "creatives" really, really bothers you.

What? You dream of the day when Hollywood is declared officially dead so talentless types can produce what they want?

Which reminds me. I have a stack of actual books to read, and some I've got to buy.
 
Orionblamblam said:
The people playing video games at home aren't paid the big bucks, true. But they're also not paying the "pros" of whatever field the games are replicating. If TV was the only option, if video games didn't exist, then the pros playing games on TV (or play-acting on TV) would be getting more eyeballs and bigger paychecks. And if TV didn't exist, then more people would be going to the movies, and movies would be making a lot more money.
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Do you know what computer game company owners get paid? And they need to recruit talented people, including voice actors.
 
edwest4 said:
The restaurant thing was all Wall Street's fault. Junk food has a higher profit margin. More bad news. Your restaurant is now owned by a hedge fund based in New Jersey...
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Thanks for the information, now I understand why the food was so bad, they spent all the money on executive salaries and market research.:)
 

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Justo Miranda said:
The initiative to talk about backdoors and Mediterranean countries was yours, I have limited myself to playing along.;)
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You were the *first* to mention "back door" in this thread in post #865, but at this point I'm not surprised by any of your blatant lies anymore.
 
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martinbayer said:
You were the *first* to mention "back door" in this thread in post #865, but at this point I'm not surprised by any of your blatant lies anymore.
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My back door is refractory to garbage, yours to Mediterranean customs, I hope I haven't hurt the sensitivity of your back door.
 
edwest4 said:
Come on! Tell me. How much is the AI Lobby paying you to post this stuff? You are not w a r n i n g me about anything.
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There are two mutually exclusive possibilities, both of which you seem to support:
1: AI is and will remain essentially worthless. unable to effectively replicate creatives, nobody will want it.
2: AI is a threat to creatives.

Which is it?

edwest4 said:
For some unknown reason, it appears that the concept of "creatives" really, really bothers you.
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Again, this is a "you problem." I'm pointing out a threat to creatives, and you interpret that as support of the threat.

edwest4 said:
What? You dream of the day when Hollywood is declared officially dead
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Gee, now why would someone be interested in seeing a den of ideological wackos and deviants lose influence? Of course, if AI didn't exist and the only way to make movies and TV was with old fashioned human effort, one might still wish to see Hollywood consigned the the garbage bin of history, and movie and TV production distributed around. Hollywood is not synonymous with "creative."

edwest4 said:
so talentless types can produce what they want?
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Why should talentless people not produce what they want?
 
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edwest4 said:
Do you know what computer game company owners get paid? And they need to recruit talented people, including voice actors.
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Voice actors are increasingly getting replaced with AI. It makes sense: with AI, a game could have effectively infinite possibilities of characters and interactions; with actors, you're limited to so many gigabytes of stored dialog.
 
Orionblamblam said:
There are two mutually exclusive possibilities, both of which you seem to support:
1: AI is and will remain essentially worthless. unable to effectively replicate creatives, nobody will want it.
2: AI is a threat to creatives.

Which is it?



Again, this is a "you problem." I'm pointing out a threat to creatives, and you interpret that as support of the threat.


Gee, now why would someone be interested in seeing a den of ideological wackos and deviants lose influence? Of course, if AI didn't exist and the only way to make movies and TV was with old fashioned human effort, one might still wish to see Hollywood consigned the the garbage bin of history, and movie and TV production distributed around. Hollywood is not synonymous with "creative."


Why should talentless people not produce what they want?
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"Gee, now why would someone be interested in seeing a den of ideological wackos and deviants lose influence?"

So - answer the question: The AI Version will automatically exclude any "den" of ideological wackos and deviants?

The ebook market is proof of what happens when talentless people flood it with junk. The ebook market is 99.99999% landfill...
 
edwest4 said:
"Gee, now why would someone be interested in seeing a den of ideological wackos and deviants lose influence?"

So - answer the question: The AI Version will automatically exclude any "den" of ideological wackos and deviants?
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"The" AI version of what? There won;t be a single AI. There will be innumerable AI.

edwest4 said:
The ebook market is proof of what happens when talentless people flood it with junk. The ebook market is 99.99999% landfill...
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Yeah, and? This is coming to your field too. Get ready.
 
Orionblamblam said:
"The" AI version of what? There won;t be a single AI. There will be innumerable AI.


Yeah, and? This is coming to your field too. Get ready.
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Ha hah ha ha ha ha ha... ha ha ha ha.

Oh great predictor of the AI future, will wackos be automatically excluded from all AI?
 
edwest4 said:
"Doctors already get passed through medical school without firm grasps of fundamentals and basic medical sign knowledge." That's crap and you know it. I worked at a hospital. You don't slide on by with minimal knowledge.
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I know people who train fresh emergency physicians out of residency, who taught and practiced emergency medicine at Yale, and they say otherwise. Perhaps it's the curse of knowledge, perhaps the standards have actually lowered, or perhaps it's just Yale. It might not be reasonable to expect a resident to have the same knowledge base of a >10 years trauma physician, but the same physician has told me he's seeing people who also don't have the same level of knowledge he had when he was a resident, which is the concerning bit.

Orionblamblam said:
And that $40M didn't go to professional sportsballers. Just as the $20 Billion spent on Fortnite didn't go to sportsball. Or Hollywood.
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Fortnite is just Hollywood for kids though. Did you forget that Activision-Blizzard had a major sexual harassment scandal with its staff? Is it just boys being boys when it's Bobby Kotick, but when it's Harvey Weinstein, it's now suddenly bad?

The free market and capitalism have decided that NFL players are approximately infinitely more valuable than rocket engineers anyway. We will never be able to automate a good NFL quarterback. Structural engineers and PCPs better watch out though.

Of course, in the good old days, USG simply would have banned it and broke up AI firms with anti-trust legislation or something. Works for anti-tank missiles, machine guns, surface to air missiles, and nuclear bombs, unless Microsoft or Amazon have secret thermonuclear weapons.
 
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Kat Tsun said:
I know people who train fresh emergency physicians out of residency, who taught and practiced emergency medicine at Yale, and they say otherwise. Perhaps it's the curse of knowledge, perhaps the standards have actually lowered, or perhaps it's just Yale. It might not be reasonable to expect a resident to have the same knowledge base of a >10 years trauma physician, but the same physician has told me he's seeing people who also don't have the same level of knowledge he had when he was a resident, which is the concerning bit.



Fortnite is just Hollywood for kids though. Did you forget that Activision-Blizzard had a major sexual harassment scandal with its staff? Is it just boys being boys when it's Bobby Kotick, but when it's Harvey Weinstein, it's now suddenly bad?

The free market and capitalism have decided that NFL players are approximately infinitely more valuable than rocket engineers anyway. We will never be able to automate a good NFL quarterback. Structural engineers and PCPs better watch out though.

Of course, in the good old days, USG simply would have banned it and broke up AI firms with anti-trust legislation or something.
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I don't know what's going on at Yale or if things have changed over time. My point is that if you don't know what you're doing then you might do something wrong, injure the patient or cause the patient some other problem. Bottom line: Hospitals don't want lawsuits. They don't want to be known as a bad place to go for treatment.
 
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