Aeronautica d'Italia (FIAT) G-52

[Skybolt]

Someone, some time ago, somewhere, asked for a 3-views of the FIAT G-52, a proposed evolution of the G-50 with a more powerful engine, the FIAT A.76 R.C. 38, a double-row radial with 14 cylinders and a power of 1000 HPs at 3800 mt. Dimensions are quoted in the drawing. Maximum projected speed was to be 530 Km/h, autonomy at maximum speed 1 hr at 6000 mt, maximum take-off weight 2330 Kg, empty 1895 Kg. As a bonus, the 3-views of the engine too, for those who wish to try and modify a standard G-50 kit... and scratch-build the engine !
The above information are courtesy of a friend of mine, my publisher...

 

[Nick Sumner]

Someone, some time ago, somewhere, asked for a 3-views of the FIAT G-52, a proposed evolution of the G-50 with a more powerful engine,

That would be me - many thanks!

 

[lark]

An other puzzle solved!
Thanks Sky

 

[lark]

Reading Jonathan Thompson's "Italian Civil and Military Aircraft 1930-1945"
mention is made that the Fiat (C.M.A.S.A) G.50V was an experimantal
prototype for the production version of the G.52.
Could it be that the definitive G.52 was seen as a liquid-cooled Daimler-Benz powered
aircraft in stead of the Fiat radial engine ?

 

[Skybolt]

Er, no. The G.52 and the G.50V are two different aircraft. The G.52 was one of the winners of the Caccia I (Intercettore, Interceptor) competiton of 1938-39 that not directly specified a radial engine, but almost all the submission had one. The other were the Macchi C.201 (powered by an A.76), the Re-2000 and the Nardi FN-530. With the exception of the Re-2000, which was company-funded, no-one of the three winners were ever to fly. Only one MC-201 was actually built, but never received the engine. In 1939 Regia Aeronautica decided to switch to in-line engines for the fighters, first with the DB-601 and later with the FIAT A.38 and various Isotta Fraschini projects. The A.38 was a bloody fiasco, and the I.F.s weren't very succesfull either. All the order were so cancelled in March 1940. Simultaneously, R.A. ordered Macchi to convert the the second MC-201 prototype in construction to receive the DB-601, and this is the birth of the MC-202, and Reggiane to do the same with the Re-2000, and this is the birth of the Re-2001. The decision to at all effects declare void the results of the Caccia I competiton opened the floodgates. Every major fighter manufacturer in Italy tendered one or more projects. FIAT proposed the G-50V, a normal G-50 with a a DB, the CR-42DB and a previously unknown CR-35 with a DB (found it in FIAT archives when researching the CR-44, my friend...), and did a study of a G-52 with a DB (but AFAIK never tendered it). FIAT was already concentrated on the G-55 that had to be powered by his A.38, and even did a study for an alternate project, the CS-38 by Manlio Stiavelli of CMASA.
As a finale, a G-5something was actually built with the A.76 (an engine that was another failure, BTW), it was the G-50ter, but this is a much later story, 1941.

 

[lark]

This is research with a big 'R'..
The more I read about , the more " Italian Secret Projects-vol I " becomes
inevitable ;D

 

[hesham]

Dear skybolt,

do you mean Nardi FN-305 or FN-530 ?.

 

[Apophenia]

Dear skybolt,

do you mean Nardi FN-305 or FN-530 ?.

Hesham: the Nardi FN-305 was a liaison/training aircraft, not a fighter.

Skybolt: amazing stuff ... keep it coming!

About the Fiat CR-35, there is an 3-view drawing purporting to be the CR-35 on the Wesworld fantasy site. Could poster, Red Admiral, tell us whether this CR-35 image has any bearing on reality?

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/print.php?threadid=4816&page=1&sid=5686f86777805a82585e3c39319bf724

For anyone interested in the CMASA CS-38, see:

http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/str286.htm

 

[Kim Margosein]

"The more I read about , the more " Italian Secret Projects-vol I " becomes
inevitable "

YESYESYES! I know Tony Buttler is involved in American Secret Projects right now, but I always felt this was sort of Scott Lowther's territory.
I would love to see some French, Italian, and minor powers secret and unbuilt projects from 35-45. Also, this site keeps supplying intriguing post-war stuff from France and West Germany that was never available in English.
I would really be eager to get some books in the "Secret Projects" format on the post-war stillborn aircraft projects of France, Germany, and the minor powers.

Kim Margosein

 

[red admiral]

About the Fiat CR-35, there is an 3-view drawing purporting to be the CR-35 on the Wesworld fantasy site. Could poster, Red Admiral, tell us whether this CR-35 image has any bearing on reality?

Completely fictional on my part. The picture is modified from an Ambrosini S.7 (drawn by Jemiba). I had thought that the CR.35 designation was unused.

The J.10bis below is slightly less fictional, the historical J.10 having a Fiat radial engine on the front. I'm sure theres some informations on it in a thread here.

 

[Andrewjs2007]

Skybolt


I was also asking about the G-52 - so thanks for the pics!

I wondered if you had any plans/sketches on the Caproni-Vizzola F.7 fighter?


Cheers


Andrew

 

[Skybolt]

Thank you all, fellows.. ;D
Tha Caproni Vizzola F-7 is much elusive. It was a design not pursued very far, by the way. I'm looking for it since a couple of years. Now perhaps I know where to look. But don't hold your breath..
As for the CR-35, the "real" one was very different indeed from the one created by Red Admiral... besides being from five years later.
Ta-daaaa 8) Sorry for the low resolution, but you'll understand...

 

[Maveric]

Hi Skybolt,

do you have also a drawing of the CMASA CS-38?

Servus Maveric

P.S. Many thanks for your good topics!

 

[Apophenia]

Thank you all, fellows.. ;D
Tha Caproni Vizzola F-7 is much elusive. It was a design not pursued very far, by the way. I'm looking for it since a couple of years. Now perhaps I know where to look. But don't hold your breath..
As for the CR-35, the "real" one was very different indeed from the one created by Red Admiral... besides being from five years later.
Ta-daaaa 8) Sorry for the low resolution, but you'll understand...

Skybolt: thanks for the CR.35 cutaway -- very CR.42B-ish. Was the CR.35 also a Rosatelli design?

About the Caproni-Vizzola F.7, was this aircraft meant to be Delta R.C.40-powered? Has my memory failed me or was an F.5 tested with that air-cooled Isotta-Fraschini?

Red Admiral: thanks for the clarification.

This is great stuff folks. Cheers!

 

[Maveric]

Hi all,

for you Apophenia the C.R.35 was a Rosatelli design, the C.R. stand for Celestino Rosatelli or stand C for fighter ( Caccia )?

Servus Maveric

 

[Andrewjs2007]

CV F.7

Dear All


I have vague but persistent memories from early 1980s of one of those "part-works" being published which showed a side-view of the Caproni-Vizzola F.7. This may have been a mis-remembering I suppose, it was a long time ago, but it has stayed with me over the years.

I suppose it may have been an F.6 or a Delta powered variant I remember seeing but it definitely was talking about the F.7.

Andrew

 

[red admiral]

The C.R. stands for Celestino Rosatelli, similar to the G in G.50 standing for Gabrielli, the Z in Z.501 standing for Zappata, the MC in MC.200 standing for Mario Castoldi (sometimes just C.)

The Caproni-Vizzola F.6Z had the Isotta-Fraschini Zeta engine. More or less a double Delta engine in an X configuration. It was aircooled and produced 1250hp with a two-stage supercharger... I think. The Italian wikipedia page on Reggiane projects speaking of the Re 2004 (also Zeta engined) states that it was turbocharged and liquid cooled. This doesn't agree with anything I've seen previously - if liquid cooled where is the radiator on the F.6Z? and Italian turbochargers???

The CR.35 looks like it might have been the fastest biplane ever....but that isn't saying much.

 

[Skybolt]

Er, no... C.R. stands for Caccia Rosatelli, (B.R. is Bombardiere Rosatelli, an F.R. , like in the F.R. 23, Fotografico Rosatelli, photorecon).
The Zeta was a coupled Isotta Fraschini Gamma, not Delta.
C.S. 38 (Caccia Stiavelli, but C.S. 15 is Corsa Stiavelli...), ok, but I'll do a new post with some pre G-55 design too. They are worth of it...

The F-7 had a DB-605, AFAIK.
Will check for the Re-2004. This evening.

 

[hesham]

Hi dear skybolt,

But I heard that the Fiat CR.23 was fighter bomber.

 

[Skybolt]

Sure, the R-23 project was a multipurpose airplane. There we FR, BR and CR versions. The idea is the same as the Breda BZ-301, 302, and 303 (same basic design derived from the CANT Z-1018) and of a Caproni-Taliedo project (I cannot say more, unfortunately.. )

 

[Skybolt]

Checked on the Re-2004: the engine was to be the I.F. Zeta like on the F-6MZ. Only difference was in the intended configuration of the exhausts. In the Re-2004 they were grouped in a single row on each side of the engine cover. This could have mislead someone in thinking there was a liquid cooling. AFAIK, all late war X-configuration I.F. engines projects were air-cooled (Sigma included, that was to give 1900 HP... : )

 

[Nick Sumner]

Sure, the R-23 project was a multipurpose airplane. There we FR, BR and CR versions. The idea is the same as the Breda BZ-301, 302, and 303 (same basic design derived from the CANT Z-1018) and of a Caproni-Taliedo project (I cannot say more, unfortunately.. )

May I ask why you can't say more?

 

[Skybolt]

Writing a book on it

 

[Nick Sumner]

Writing a book on it

Splendid news!

Is it just on Fiat designs or is it the long hoped for 'Italian Secret Projects'? That is a book that I for one would buy!

 

[Andrewjs2007]

Dear Skybolt

Just wanted to say many thanks for your excellent on-going submissions to the list.

I think there's quite a few of us here who look forward to your forthcoming book!


Andrew

 

[Skybolt]

The idea is something on late-war (circa 1942-1944) Italian projects. This time period hasn't been well covered by historians (apart the occasional sensationalistic item, like the mixed propulsion aircrafts), probably because they judged what was going on knowing what happened (the Armistice etc.), so even interesting concept was deemed flight of fantasy. If the German design activity had received the same type of attention, everything from 1943 on would have been considered trash. But the Italian designer and Regia generals and technicians weren't fancy dreamer, they really thought that their work would have been useful.

 

[Nick Sumner]

That sounds extremely interesting - any idea when the manuscript will be complete?

 

[Skybolt]

It's a long way to Tipperary...

 

[Nick Sumner]

It's a long way to Tipperary...

Well, best of luck with it and please keep us posted!

 

[hesham]

My dear skybolt,

I know that the Avia (later Lombardi) CO.2 single seat
fighter was submitted to interceptor competition of 1938-
1939,was that right ?.

 

[Skybolt]

Uh, yes, that's right. It was eliminated almost immediately, and when you'll see the drawing, you'll understand why.. :
I'll start a new thread on it in a few minutes. BTW, it wasn't Avia, but A.V.I.S. , that stands for Avio Industrie Stabiensi. It was one of the smaller companies of the Caproni Group. The Co designation was assigned probably because the former owner of AVIS was a Mr. Catello Coppola.

 

[hesham]

here is a hint for Nardi FN.530 fighter Project.

http://www.italia-resistenza.it/wp-content/uploads/ic/RAV0053532_1992_186-189_19.pdf

 

[Hardrada55]

Nardi FN 530

 

[hesham]

Nardi FN 530

Thank you Hardada.

 

[Apophenia]

The Nardi FN 530 was submitted with two engine options. In Hardrada55's 3-view is the Isotta-Fraschini L.120 R.C.35 Delta. The other engine option - the Gnome-Rhône Mars 14M R.C.40 - explaining the FN 530's circular fuselage-section

BTW, in March 1937, the Centro sperimentali at Guidonia received a drawing set for an 'FN 305D'. I assume that to be a reference to the Delta-powered variant. Perhaps there was also an 'FN 305M' for the Mars version?

 

[hesham]

Thank you for the Info my dear Apophenia.