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A very British Flogger Type 584/585

zen

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Firstly
Type 584/585 was proposed to NMBR.3 and while it elicited interest, because of the expensive and complex VTOL elements of the concept it was pretty much doomed against the P1154 and the Mirage with it's multiple lift jets.

But during this the Type 585 was proposed to the RN......

So if one took a reasonable view to remove the V/STOL elements of NMBR.3 and focuse only on STOL....
If one was driving the need to produce a 'research machine' for the use of VG wings....

Then the Type 585 is not far from a reasonable answer.

And in quick order one comes to a Very British Flogger.
With VG wings
Single large Medway engine
internal bay for two AAMs or a WE.177

And in short order one note's this is much more like a Starfighter successor than the larger, more expensive VG machines that ended up dominating the MRCA effort.

One will also note the similarity with the French Mirage G, which actually flew and pretty much proves the logic of a SLEF/A (Single Large Engine Fighter/Attack).
 

Archibald

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The Mirage G was described as "outstanding" by USAF, USN, RAAF pilots. Between 1966 and 1973 the French Navy very badly wanted it in a F-4K role, but there was no money. Also the TF-30 was a rotten engine. SNECMA burned a lot of time and energy trying to make it work, yet in the end the TF-306E had to go and the M53 was born.

I do know there isn't much love for Dassault on the other side of the Channel, for historical reasons. But you can't deny that a Spey-powered, Mirage G in a F-4K livery flying out of a revamped HMS Eagle, and blowing Argie Mirage IIIs out of the sky, would have been pretty cool to see.

In an ideal world, Mirage G merged with Type 585 in 1963, in place of both Jaguar and AFVG. No Crusaders, no F-4K either. Would the Germans join the fest ? no idea. They really wanted two engines and longer range. Dassault tried pretty hard to place either the G or G4 / G8 into the MRCA requirement, but this went nowhere.

By the way, the Mig-23 was a flying piece of junk. I have no doubts that an Anglo-french team could do far better.
 

zen

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Could there be some middle way here?
Some split on AFVG?
Single engine for the MRI and Fighter missions. As per F4 and Jaguar.
Twin engines for semi-strategic strike.

Then a navalised single engine machine....
The Anglo-French effort then widening out to take in various Starfighter users? Licence to Germany.

?
 

Archibald

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Well, with a single hugely powerful Olympus (borrowed from concorde) why not ? Kind of VG wing, 60's Hawker P.1121. Or a Franco-British F-105 Thunderchief. You mentionned internal weapon bay as desirable, and the F-105 had such a thing.
 

uk 75

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I am a great fan of unbuilt projects from the 60s because they were much more exciting than the aircraft that actually worked for the customers.
Both the UK and France had some wonderful drawing board and even flying prototypes.
BAC and Dassault were at the top of their game, and a joint project would be the stuff of dreams. A family of stostovl or vg fighter/strikers merging Mirage and TSR2 expertise. Bit like Bridget Bardot and Dirk Bogarde.
 

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I think had the RAF not gotten so V/STOL obsessed and P.1154 had never been a project, then a Hunter replacement using Vickers VG wing knowledge seems likely to have been highly favoured.
The 580-series might have had more chance of being a more feasible joint-services design. If a single Olympus or Medway wasn't possible then a twin Spey layout might have worked out well. Saying that, developing the VG wing would not have been cheap and the ultimate cost may not have been that cheap. It also might have been over-engineered for the need, Jaguar performed well and did the job.
 

uk 75

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I agree about the Jaguar. Once Tornado arrives as the Canberra replacement, the Jaguar becomes the Hunter replacement in three squadrons in the UK.
The P1127RAF was forced on the RAF by the Government, they wanted more Phantoms.
It is not until 1970 that the UK Jaguar buy was changed from Trainers to mainly Fighter Ground Attack. The Phantoms were needed to replace Lightning's and MRCA was in hand to replace the Jaguars in the Germany based strike squadrons in due course.
BAC had offered its mini Tornado P 45 for the Hunter and Gnat trainer role and hoped it might also be paired with the Harrier in the FGA role. Jaguar was probably a safer bet, but P45 was the UK Mig27.
 

zen

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Range.....this design 'with lift jets and clang-box diverter was projected at over 350nm ROA low level.
 

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The soviets experimented with STOL (not VTOL) lift-jets aircrafts, I think there was a MiG-23 and an early Su-24. The lift jets were supposed to cut into the takeoff run. The results were... not very good.
 

zen

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Yeap.
But pull out the loft jets and diverter and not only does the machine weigh less, but the volume is there for more fuel, and thus more range.
 
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