A modern frigate?

[SSgtC]

The closest thing to your concept is the Coast Guard's NSC and new OPCs. They are very capable in the show-the-flag, anti-piracy and anti-smuggling roles but are so lightly armed as to be not very useful in peer naval conflict.

To be fair, the NSCs were designed to have both their sensors and weapons upgraded should the need arise. The publicly available info says that the CIWS can be replaced with the SeaRAM and other "non line of sight missiles" can be added as well. I'm not 100% sure if that means they can have a Mk41 VLS installed, or if they're referring to bolting on a quad launcher for Harpoon (or NSM). My gut says it means Harpoon, but they don't say for sure one way or another.

 

[Jimmo952]

To be fair, the NSCs were designed to have both their sensors and weapons upgraded should the need arise. The publicly available info says that the CIWS can be replaced with the SeaRAM and other "non line of sight missiles" can be added as well. I'm not 100% sure if that means they can have a Mk41 VLS installed, or if they're referring to bolting on a quad launcher for Harpoon (or NSM). My gut says it means Harpoon, but they don't say for sure one way or another.

They were designed to accommodate ESSM in VLS behind the 57mm.

At some point the Coast Guard converted that space into extra sleeping quarters.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Not for the US Navy, though? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Instead, FFG(X) turned into the FREMM derived Constellations.

I never said the US navy was getting it, just pointed out that with slight alterations to the freedom’s design it could be turned into a light GP FFG

 

[johnpjones1775]

Experiments were performed with LCS and towed arrays but the results were not positive. The Navy has abandoned any hope of using LCS with towed array.

The Navy deemed LCS as not suitable for anti-submarine work but did not give a detailed explanation.

The rumor is they are just too loud.

The water jets actually broke the towed array systems, and my former LCS officer buddy has said generally they are too loud for reliable ASW

 

[Jimmo952]

The water jets actually broke the towed array systems, and my former LCS officer buddy has said generally they are too loud for reliable ASW

Thanks.

 

[SSgtC]

They were designed to accommodate ESSM in VLS behind the 57mm.

At some point the Coast Guard converted that space into extra sleeping quarters.

Thanks. Probably pretty simple to convert it back to VLS space then. Obviously it would take some yard time, and it would make the ships more crowded, but they would still be doable. At least giving the ships ESSM and RIM-116 would provide them with a viable self defense capability

 

[Desertfox]

The Heritage-class cutters is exactly what I had in mind (should be doable to add SeaRAM and Hellfire). The NSC is obviously more capable and can easily be upgraded into a proper warship, but at that point you are better off just buying more Constellations.

 

[Jimmo952]

Thanks. Probably pretty simple to convert it back to VLS space then. Obviously it would take some yard time, and it would make the ships more crowded, but they would still be doable. At least giving the ships ESSM and RIM-116 would provide them with a viable self defense capability

I have not heard about the Harpoons before but I don't doubt it. It makes a lot of sense.

I know tests were done recently operating a Navy Seahawk from an NSC.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Hardly small or cheap though, and was originally planned with the an Aegis-derived combat system that you think is too expensive.

Of course this implies that a petro-state and absolutist monarchy like Saudi Arabia is actually capable of making wise military procurement decisions.



Right, but LCS is not really a frigate and I don't think it should be compared to the frigates of other countries (or to anything like the Constellations). I don't view them as an alternative or replacement for General-Purpose frigates, I don't think they are capable enough to perform that role. They're great minesweeper replacements though, and I suppose they could act as competent combined Towed-Array tugs and platforms for ASW Helicopters when performing ASW for a fleet. Provided they're covered by DDGs to protect them from submarine-launched Anti-Ship Missiles though.



Said program was mostly a costly mistake, almost without without any form of redemption until a useful niche could be found for it, pushed into production by an overly technologically-optimistic Secretary of Defense and Admiral working in concert. Of course the original Streetfighter concept was unworkable, which is why LCS swelled form a displacement around 1000-tons to 3500-tons, I to something that wasn't just an overgrown FAC.

There were 2 mistakes made. 1 was the navy’s decision to build the ships before modules were ready 2 was congress’ mistake trying to save money and switching the freedoms to a cheaper combining gear that caused all those problems.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Thanks. Probably pretty simple to convert it back to VLS space then. Obviously it would take some yard time, and it would make the ships more crowded, but they would still be doable. At least giving the ships ESSM and RIM-116 would provide them with a viable self defense capability

May not make the ship’s more crowded, for the navy’s purposes. That extra berthing space may have been added to accommodate LEDET or SAR recoveries from major shipping incidents.

Thus the navy would have little use of that space during a conflict

 

[johnpjones1775]

I have not heard about the Harpoons before but I don't doubt it. It makes a lot of sense.

I know tests were done recently operating a Navy Seahawk from an NSC.

Hamiltons had been tested with harpoons, so it would make sense for the NSC to be able to mount them as well.


I’d lean towards harpoon over NSM so those could be saved for the LCSes to use since they’re already meant to carry them.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Can we get back to discussing next generation frigates?

LCS was seriously considered as a next generation frigate.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The ocean-going corvette would be built to handle multiple patrol requirements, including replacing the OPC cutters in peacetime. In wartime, they would escort replenishment vessels and ships from the continental US, patrol off naval bases (Pearl Harbor, San Diego, Guam etc), cover the Indian and Atlantic oceans etc.

Patrolling chokepoints would be just one of many missions… personally I doubt that allies or undersea sensors would be sufficient especially given the need to also do VBSS to interdict merchant shipping and enforce trade sanctions.

There is a one area where cheap simple corvettes/OPVs could be very useful. That is the myriad of peacetime commitments (showing the flag, piracy patrols, interdicting drug runners, etc) the USN has to conduct but don't require a Burke or even a Constellation for. Note that this is not for boosting the navy in wartime. If you had a bunch of cheap OPVs for peacetime duties, you could then keep the higher end combatants in port for much longer saving on maintenance and making sure your high end fleet is not worn out when a war with a peer combatant breaks out. The OPVs would not actually have a wartime role and their crews would go to beef up the higher end ships in combat.

Those are both roles that an Independence class LCS is quite capable of doing, due to that huge helo deck and mission bay.

Any ship I'd want to use for that role would also need a large helo deck, probably larger than what the Freedom class LCS have or any of the Coastie designs.

Experiments were performed with LCS and towed arrays but the results were not positive. The Navy has abandoned any hope of using LCS with towed array.

The Navy deemed LCS as not suitable for anti-submarine work but did not give a detailed explanation.

The rumor is they are just too loud.

Based on how loud the HSVs were, I'd believe it.

We were on the surface, coast in view. One of the HSVs went the other way past us, between us and the coastline, and I had to shout to be heard by the OOD standing 4 feet away. In another instance, we were submerged and tracking targets. Had one at 15kyards, and an HSV at 30k. HSV completely drowned out the contact at 15k, and the contact at 15k wasn't quiet. This was 2002, before the Lincoln went on her cruise of doom(tm).

 

[uk 75]

The Falklands conflict seems to bear out the view that ships would have a hard time surviving a shooting war.
Anyone who had played the few wargames issued before 1982 about modern naval warfare (Sixth Fleet and Task Force by SPI, SSN by GDW and Seastrike from UK) was not surprised at how vulnerable surface ships were.
The annual exercises by the US Naval War College have been published for the late 80s and show that all NATO and Soviet carriers were either sunk or severely damaged.
While no modern fleets have engaged one another in combat the continuous training of NATO units for a "come as you are" naval war from 1948 to 1990 comes pretty close. The cumulative experience of the US and UK navies is something China and Russia do not have.

 

[Jimmo952]

The Heritage-class cutters is exactly what I had in mind (should be doable to add SeaRAM and Hellfire). The NSC is obviously more capable and can easily be upgraded into a proper warship, but at that point you are better off just

LCS was seriously considered as a next generation frigate.

You are correct. The Navy even wrote the requirements in a way that would allow LCS derivatives to compete.

In the end though, we saw what happened. The Navy passed on the LCS derivatives and the HI patrol frigates and went with the FREM-based heavy frigate that is basically a mini-Burke.

 

[johnpjones1775]

LCS was seriously considered as a next generation frigate.

MMSC were technically different lol

 

[johnpjones1775]

You are correct. The Navy even wrote the requirements in a way that would allow LCS derivatives to compete.

In the end though, we saw what happened. The Navy passed on the LCS derivatives and the HI patrol frigates and went with the FREM-based heavy frigate that is basically a mini-Burke.

Yep, that’s what happened but doesn’t mean it was the right choice.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Now that we all seem to be in agreement that no ship class would realistically survive a modern (near) peer naval war, can we stop crying about cheaper ships not being survivable enough?

 

[Jimmo952]

Yep, that’s what happened but doesn’t mean it was the right choice.

It was a great choice. The Navy will have some very capable, multi-role ships.

 

[johnpjones1775]

It was a great choice. The Navy will have some very capable, multi-role ships.

Some.
And we already have 60+ muktirole ships that by your criteria are significantly better than they are.

 

[Jimmo952]

Some.
And we already have 60+ muktirole ships that by your criteria are significantly better than they are.

I'm sorry but I believe you are delusional.

 

[SSgtC]

Some.
And we already have 60+ muktirole ships that by your criteria are significantly better than they are.

And the Navy has been extremely clear that they need more than they have. But budgets being what they are, they aren't ever going to get enough Burkes to fill their needs.

 

[johnpjones1775]

And the Navy has been extremely clear that they need more than they have. But budgets being what they are, they aren't ever going to get enough Burkes to fill their needs.

And the Connie’s aren’t cheap enough to get the USN to their goal size either.

 

[SSgtC]

And the Connie’s aren’t cheap enough to get the USN to their goal size either.

They get them a hell of a lot closer

 

[Jimmo952]

Once again, the US is currently constrained by it's ability to build ships. There is only so much capacity to build.

It's not like if we built austere frigates without SPY-6 and Aegis we could crank them out like doughnuts.

I am all for increasing industrial capacity. We need to.

Today though, if we want to get the second tier yards fully utilized for naval shipbuilding, we are looking at fairly small corvettes and patrol boats as these yards are not set up to build 4000-7000 ton frigates.

A place where this is happening is Swiftships getting the contract to build the 500ton MUSV.

 

[Scott Kenny]

This is going to sound weird, but I think the use case for XLUSV Frigates (2500-3500 ton size) is as carrier and ARG ASW escorts. There will always be that large ship nearby to supply the weekly maintenance crews, and this will let the Navy put 6-8 of them per carrier/phib group.

It will also require a 30knot ASW hull as the base ship, which unfortunately raises costs. Use basic railroad diesel-electric power for propulsion, just properly rafted for quieting. Should be very simple, building basically a railroad locomotive frame for each generator set and using that as the raft. Maybe not as heavy as a locomotive frame, but something like that with the same basic dimensions.

This would leave the Connies for "off by themselves" work, and occasionally group ASW flagship work.

 

[H_K]

And the Connie’s aren’t cheap enough to get the USN to their goal size either.

The Constellations are not that expensive… basically a $600M hull with $300M of weapons & sensors. You could cut those of course, but that’s what brings all the capability (AEGIS, EASR, MK-41, CEC, COMINT, SQQ-89, SEWIP, NIXIE etc…).

LCS is a $450M hull with only $50M of weapons and sensors. It has no wartime utility without adding $$$ for modules and proper sensors and weapons, which it doesn’t have the SWaP-C margins to carry or the endurance to bring to the combat zone.

Notice that the difference in hull cost itself is only $150M. There are ways to build a cheaper general purpose frigate of course, but there’s going to be a capability trade-off and it will be hard to save more than $100-200M per hull while maintaining full spectrum AAW, ASW, ASuW, and EW capability… you’ll definitely lose AEGIS and some AAW capability along the way for example.

To save more than that (say if you want something for 1/2 or 1/3 the cost of an FFG-62), capability and hull-size would need to be drastically cut… see my ocean-going corvette proposal.

 

[Desertfox]

How much does a Heritage-class OPC go for? The goal would not be to add more wartime hulls, but to save the wear and tear on the hulls we already have.

 

[Scott Kenny]

How much does a Heritage-class OPC go for? The goal would not be to add more wartime hulls, but to save the wear and tear on the hulls we already have.

For crew skills you gotta keep the ships at sea.

 

[Jimmo952]

How much does a Heritage-class OPC go for? The goal would not be to add more wartime hulls, but to save the wear and tear on the hulls

The OPC project cost has been creeping up.

The cost of the program for 25 OPCs is now up to 17.6 billion or roughly $700 million a ship.

Not cheap.

The US will have 25 OPCs, 11 NSCc, 21 LCS.
That should give us 57 ships capable of patrol, showing the flag and chasing pirates.

We will also have at least 65 of the smaller Fast Response Cutters.

That's a pretty big fleet of ships that can be used for missions other than war.

It might be fruitful to figure out how to use these assets in an actual peer conflict.

 

[SSgtC]

How much does a Heritage-class OPC go for? The goal would not be to add more wartime hulls, but to save the wear and tear on the hulls we already have.

Not low enough to warrant buying them. A Connie is about 900 million and a Heritage is like 700 million, but far weaker with less than half the sensors or weapons of the Connie

 

[Desertfox]

How are they so expensive? The Mexican Oaxaca class OPVs are ~$40 million and they aren't 20 times less capable than a Heritage.

 

[Scott Kenny]

How are they so expensive? The Mexican Oaxaca class OPVs are ~$40 million and they aren't 20 times less capable than a Heritage.

Sensors and systems.

 

[Jimmo952]

My number of $700 million a ship came from the GAO.

 

[Jimmo952]

I have no idea how Mexico is calculating the cost of their ships. Even without sensors and weapons and factoring in lower labor costs, $40 million seems really cheap.

 

[SSgtC]

How are they so expensive? The Mexican Oaxaca class OPVs are ~$40 million and they aren't 20 times less capable than a Heritage.

The Oaxaca class are 80' shorter, 20' narrower, 3 knots slower and 2,000 tons smaller. That's a huge difference in size before we even begin discussing the fact that the Mexican vessels have a significantly less capable sensor suite

 

[1635yankee]

There were 2 mistakes made. 1 was the navy’s decision to build the ships before modules were ready 2 was congress’ mistake trying to save money and switching the freedoms to a cheaper combining gear that caused all those problems.

Mistake zero was letting a well-placed fanboi write the specifications.

 

[Jimmo952]

Mistake zero was letting a well-placed fanboi write the specifications.

My understanding is the requirements were designed by committee.

It started out as a 1000 ton coastal corvette.
Some admirals were insistent on self deployment.
Some admirals were insistent on aviation support.
Some admirals wanted speed...

It went from a 1000 ton coastal corvette to something that the world had never seen before and for good reason.

 

[Scott Kenny]

My understanding is the requirements were designed by committee.

It started out as a 1000 ton coastal corvette.
Some admirals were insistent on self deployment.
Some admirals were insistent on aviation support.
Some admirals wanted speed...

It went from a 1000 ton coastal corvette to something that the world had never seen before and for good reason.

I honestly disagree.

That big helo deck makes an awesome ship for "showing the flag" missions and anything not involving getting shot at.

If the mission modules had been developed properly, it had extra flexibility in what and how it was used. Though I honestly think that the ASuW configuration with a pair of 30mm turrets should have been the default.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Once again, the US is currently constrained by it's ability to build ships. There is only so much capacity to build.

It's not like if we built austere frigates without SPY-6 and Aegis we could crank them out like doughnuts.

I am all for increasing industrial capacity. We need to.

Today though, if we want to get the second tier yards fully utilized for naval shipbuilding, we are looking at fairly small corvettes and patrol boats as these yards are not set up to build 4000-7000 ton frigates.

A place where this is happening is Swiftships getting the contract to build the 500ton MUSV.

budget for building ships is probably an even bigger hurtle than the industrial capacity.

If congress won’t approve the funds to build these high end ships it doesn’t matter what our industrial base looks like.
If congress approves funding then ships get built, just slowly.

I’m all for getting smaller yards geared up and producing corvette-esque ships.

When a real naval conflict comes for us I think we’ll be happy we have LCSes, and after the conflict I think we’ll want to build more of them, and maybe even upgrade to MMSCs