A-7 versus A-10 evaluation, CAS role for Army support discussion

aim9xray said:
A big No. You'd take a severe hit in CNbeta (directional stability); i.e. you are adding destabilizing area in the very worst place (as far forward as possible on the A-7 airframe). Which is why you take the components out of the pod and and package into the airframe as best as possible. And add the pointy A-7F fin cap.

Please see Bill's post.
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Thank you.

But man is that an ugly install. Need to have the Doc check those warts out!!! ;)
 
How about in the nose, in place of the radar . . . ?

cheers,
Robin.
 
Here is a close look at the Pave Penny installation under the intake of an A-7D - note that the Lockheed-Martin AN/AAS-35(V) Pave Penny is a laser spot tracker carried by the A-7D and other USAF aircraft to enable them to track a laser spot on the ground. It is a receiver only, allowing the pilot to see which targets may be attacked by any LGBs they carry. Pave Penny does not produce a laser beam and cannot be used to designate targets. It was designed to be used with designators on the ground or on other aircraft.

You would still need a FLIR to see targets at night, and a laser designator transmitter to self-designate targets.


A-7D with Pave Penny under intake.jpg
 
Scott Kenny said:
Thank you.

But man is that an ugly install. Need to have the Doc check those warts out!!! ;)
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You think that is ugly... here is the first FLIR (the Trails, Roads Interdiction Module (TRIM)) on an A-6C... initially as a wing pod then mounted under the central fuselage (blocking the belly ordnance station).

TRIM was used in Vietnam to attack VC night supply movements.


TRIM at China Lake.jpg


A-6C 517NE.png


A-6C Operational Pod Lightened.jpg
 
The AN/AAS-33 DRS (Detecting and Ranging System) for the A-6E TRAM upgrade (Target Recognition Attack Multisensor) was under development at the same time as the under-nose FLIR for the A-7D mentioned above (the TRAM system was approved for full production in 1978).

Externally it was an elegant system, but required a lot of volume in the nose of the A-6E, and the addition of a 1/4" tape recorder in the aft fuselage "birdcage" seen opened in the 4th photo so that Battle Damage Assessment could be made without need for a follow-up recon flight.


DRS nose layout.gif


RG.gif


a-6e-DN-SN-90-06268.jpg


VMA(AW)-121 A-6E.jpg


A-6E_Intruder_landing_on_CVN-69.jpg
 
For reference, Here are two of the smaller pods of the 1980s (in white). I believe that's a Nitehawk at the bottom. The olive drab behemoth behind is the Pave Tack pod, also known as "Pave Drag", which was only carried by F-111s and occasionally, Air Force F-4s in the centerline position instead of the customary 600 gallon fuel tank.

Successful integration with the A-7 under the nose is left as an exercise for the viewer. (Pro tip: the Pave Tack might be better considered as a wingman.)

1693932082497.jpeg
 
BlackBat242 said:
Here is a close look at the Pave Penny installation under the intake of an A-7D - note that the Lockheed-Martin AN/AAS-35(V) Pave Penny is a laser spot tracker carried by the A-7D and other USAF aircraft to enable them to track a laser spot on the ground. It is a receiver only, allowing the pilot to see which targets may be attacked by any LGBs they carry. Pave Penny does not produce a laser beam and cannot be used to designate targets. It was designed to be used with designators on the ground or on other aircraft.

You would still need a FLIR to see targets at night, and a laser designator transmitter to self-designate targets.
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A-10s also carried Pave Penny pods up till the -C upgrade, it was bolted to the side of the nose and hung down a foot or more.

aim9xray said:
For reference, Here are two of the smaller pods of the 1980s (in white). I believe that's a Nitehawk at the bottom. The olive drab behemoth behind is the Pave Tack pod, also known as "Pave Drag", which was only carried by F-111s and occasionally, Air Force F-4s in the centerline position instead of the customary 600 gallon fuel tank.

Successful integration with the A-7 under the nose is left as an exercise for the viewer. (Pro tip: the Pave Tack might be better considered as a wingman.)
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IIRC, the F-111 install of the Pave Tack pod took up the entire bomb bay(!).

Now I need to make a 1/144 scale F-4 with the Pave Tack pod on the centerline. Did the Wild Weasels ever carry Pave Tack? (my local Air Guard squadron had Wild Weasels and RF-4Cs in the 1980s, went to A-10s in the 1990s)
 
robunos said:
Ah, I see . . . I was working on the principle that as the A-10 didn't have a radar, an A-7 for the same mission wouldn't need one either . . .

cheers,
Robin.
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No problem!

And honestly, the A-7's radar bombing system made it able to fly and fight when the weather was nasty, while the A-10's lack of radar makes it a fair-weather-only bomber up until the A-10C. And even then I don't think the -C has a Terrain Following Radar!
 
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