1970s Aircraft Carrier Elevator Size Question

[Hood]

I have come across a British carrier-based aircraft project from 1974, it is non-V/STOL and the drawing has a rather intriguing annotation on it which is bugging me.

The maximum wingspan limit is shown as 30ft with the note that it that dimension is the width of the carrier lift, but that the figure is an estimate scaled from a plan drawing of the carrier in question.
The maximum folded length is given as 50ft, although it does not specify whether this is a lift limit or a general stowage limit.

Now, assuming that it is referring to a British carrier, most of the ships remaining in service by that date (Ark Royal, Hermes) had 33-34ft wide elevators. The Invincible then building had 31.8ft wide elevators. But this is definitely not a V/STOL design so could not operate from the Invincibles.
Casting my mind overseas, the Clemenceau's lifts are wider than 30ft, so are those of Minas Gerais and Veinticinco de Mayo (as far as I can tell based on info in Janes) , being around 33ft wide. The only other ship I can think of for that time is Melbourne, but I don't have her lift measurements to hand.
Does anyone have definitive dimensional data for Minas Gerais, Veinticinco de Mayo and Melbourne?

Given that an experienced draughtsman made the aircraft drawing, it feels to me that the scaling of the plan whatever ship it was would not be that far out, a 3-4ft error feels like a lot (plus if it was an RN ship then surely some specific data would already be on hand?).

 

[EwenS]

I'll see what I can dig out later. But an immediate thought is that the aircraft needs to be smaller than the lift to give the deck handling crew some room to manoeuvre the aircraft.

Pre-WW2 the RN liked a couple of feet spacing all around an aircraft on the hangar deck although this reduced to circa 1-1.5ft during the war depending on type. If you take an Essex with lifts designed to take 2 x SB2C you get similar figures.

Fitting a Super Standard onto 25th De Mayo's lift was tricky, with the aircraft angled across it. Needless to say, I can't find that photo just now. IIRC Phantoms on Ark Royal were also a tight squeeze.

The fighter the fit the slower the whole deck operation of getting an aircraft into or out of the hangar.

 

[Hood]

Many thanks EwenS.
Maybe I should add that the max limit is shown over the full wingspan, which is also 30ft. The drawing also features a folded measurement of 25ft - although the wing does not seem to have any fold line or hinging points shown!
The project in question is based on an aircraft that did fly from a French carrier with a span of 28 ft 6 in and therefore required no fold.

 

[Yellow Palace]

Given that an experienced draughtsman made the aircraft drawing, it feels to me that the scaling of the plan whatever ship it was would not be that far out, a 3-4ft error feels like a lot (plus if it was an RN ship then surely some specific data would already be on hand?).

Worth noting that regardless of the skill of the draughtsman, they can't produce a more accurate figure than the drawing they're scaling from. If they're working from (say) Janes, for some reason, with not-terribly-accurate drawings and thick lines, a 10% error is entirely possible.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

I have come across a British carrier-based aircraft project from 1974, it is non-V/STOL and the drawing has a rather intriguing annotation on it which is bugging me.

The project in question is based on an aircraft that did fly from a French carrier with a span of 28 ft 6 in and therefore required no fold.

SEPECAT Jaguar derivative?

 

[orlovsky]

Hobbs says the majestics hat 34x54 ft elevators. With 2 ft clearance that would fit the 30/50 ft.

INS Vikrant still had her catapult in 1974? India was looking at the Jaguar for a long time before the buy, but Jaguar M for Vikrant sounds a bit crazy...

 

[BlackBat242]

Ark Royal & Eagle: Lifts = 54ft long x 44ft wide (fwd lift) & 54ft long x 33ft wide (aft lift) both with a 40,000lb capacity
Victorious: Lifts = 58ft long x 40ft wide (fwd lift) & 54ft long x 34ft wide (aft lift) both with a 42,000lb capacity
Hermes: Lifts = 54ft long x 45ft wide (side lift) & 54ft long x 44ft wide (aft lift) both with a 40,000lb capacity
Centaur: Lifts = 54ft long x 44ft wide [fwd lift 37,000lb capacity] [aft lift 40,000lb capacity]
Albion & Bulwark: Lifts = 54ft long x 44ft wide, both with a 35,000lb capacity

Colossus/Majestic class as built (except Melbourne, Bonaventure, & Vikrant): Lifts = 45ft long x 34ft wide, both with a 15,000lb capacity
Melbourne, Bonaventure, & Vikrant: Lifts = 54ft long x 34ft wide, both with a 24,000lb capacity

25 de Mayo: Lifts = 45ft long x 34ft wide, both with a ? lb capacity (while the same Dutch shipyard modernized Minas Gerais at almost the same time {KD/25M 1955-58, MG 1957-60} overhead photos match this length {the Dutch operated the shorter S-2A - 42'long}).
(Additionally, the S-2Es of Argentina {43' 6" long, 27' wide wings folded} just barely fit on a 45' x 34' lift, while the 47' long SuE would indeed need to be placed diagonally to fit, as described by EwanS)

Minas Gerais: Lifts = 50ft long x 34ft wide, both with a ? lb capacity (Janes said 45' x 34' but on the official plans I have a sample of they measure 50' x 34', and overhead photos support this intermediate length)

 

[BlackBat242]

Hobbs says the majestics hat 34x54 ft elevators. With 2 ft clearance that would fit the 30/50 ft.

INS Vikrant still had her catapult in 1974? India was looking at the Jaguar for a long time before the buy, but Jaguar M for Vikrant sounds a bit crazy...

Vikrant had a refit in 1979-81 in which her boilers, radars, communication systems and anti-aircraft guns were modernised, and basic facilities to operate Sea Harriers were installed. Her French Alizé anti-submarine aircraft continued to operate from her after this refit.

In 1987-89 complete facilities to operate the new Sea Harrier Vertical/Short Take Off and Land (V/STOL) fighter aircraft and the new Sea King Mk 42B Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) helicopters were introduced. A 9.75-degree ski-jump ramp was fitted. The steam catapult was removed during this refit.

 

[BlackBat242]

The Invincible then building had 31.8ft wide elevators.

Invincible class: Lifts: 54.94' x 31.98'

Source: CVS AIRCRAFT LIFTS © Crown Copyright/MoD (1987). BY LIEUTENANT-COMMANDER D. STRAWFORD, R.N. (H.M.S. Ark Royal, formerly staff of C-in-C Fleet) " The lift platforms are 16.75 m long by 9.75 m wide with corners of parabolic form. "

 

[orlovsky]

A 3rd nr for invincible class lifts, from Hobbs, "...Carriers: Design...." : 54ft by 31ft8in.

 

[Hood]

SEPECAT Jaguar derivative?

Yes, a super-souped up Jaguar M no less.

Ark Royal & Eagle:...

Many thanks this is very useful, especially the re-checking of Minas Gerais.

I am becoming convinced that with scaling error etc. that probably the lifts in mind are those of Ark Royal but I'm not ruling out an export contender for one of the Majestic users given the similar sizes and the fact that by 1974 the writing was on the wall for Ark and provision of new aircraft for her were very unlikely, and while it does just predate Sea Harrier, it doesn't make enough sense to be serious RN project.