Canada Future fighter capability project (ex-Next Generation Fighter Capability)

Quite honestly, i always liked the idea of Rafales for Canada, but Dassault and Eurofighter pulled out of the competition due to the NORAD requirements and how expensive integration would be. It makes me wonder how the Saab team will manage with it, or whether a hybrid fleet can deal with this some how.
The official reason wasn't cost of the integration, but rather Dassault Aviation withdrew from the competition in 2018 primarily due to Canada’s interoperability and intelligence-sharing requirements with U.S. networks. As a member of the Five Eyes alliance and NORAD, Canada demanded significant technology transfers and deep integration with U.S. systems, which Dassault deemed impossible to fully meet without compromising its own technological sovereignty.
I think I also remember them saying, on the side of this official reason, that they thought these intelligence sharing requirements were only there to eliminate non US bidders.
If that's the case, and these were just a pretext, then I suppose it would not be part of a new arrangement, and that would make it easier for Saab.
 
... It makes me wonder how the Saab team will manage with it, or whether a hybrid fleet can deal with this some how.

Saab will have a much easier time of it because the GoC now sees wholesale integration with US systems with much less favour. A mixed fleet allows the RCAF to meet NORAD integration demands (ie: nothing acceptable other than the F-35A) while maintaining at least a modicum of independence from the USAF.
 
@Wotan : speaking French language is not equal to liking French culture. This casual assertion is misguided and a bit offensive for the people of those countries.
Canada's Quebec has even grew some resentment from time to time over their over representated French expatriates among immigrants.

Regarding the Gripen, their bid and push for export has been so jammed with grandiose announcements that the program, even if it wins any order, with be jeopardized with over scrutiny years after service introduction. If Saab don't put the rational minded people back in lead with the right language, I fear that any failure would be detrimental for Saab future sales. Canada is not a country isolated. It has the megaphone of the English language press. You would probably not want to trespass there brazenly.
 
It happened many times in the past though; TAF F-35s still sit in the US.

It doesn't change attractiveness of US armaments themselves (if anything, it decreases any merit in considering alternative). It only decreases attractiveness of individual US components on future programs, but US components were chosen with this risk in the first place.

They're chosen because they're good and often hardly replaceable(best/tested/the only suitable option).
Sorry, but imho, they may be good, but some very expensive to operate, comes with lot of strings attached, and are often chosen because you had the whole power of US diplomacy/economic and manufacturing capacity/some time pressures even behind it, and until recently, for close allies like Canada, guaranteed US protection that comes with it, that is/was their main "attractiveness".

but "all the times they are a changin"...
 
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all this talk of re-engining the Gripen E/F is just academic. It won't happen.
A majority of the time an aircraft changes an engine is either when it transitions from a prototype/experimental aircraft to a production aircraft, or a major new variant. The Gripen E/F is relatively recent, and a new engine is basically going to lead to a Gripen G/H, which has an even smaller market to work with.

If Canada absolutely demands an aircraft that has no American engines, then it's much more practical for them to choose either the Rafale or Eurofighter.

For Saab, if they wanted to push an aircraft with a non-American engine, it's more practical for them to start pushing a new design, such as that A3 or whatever comes out of it. Stick an engine from Safran, Rolls Royce, IHI, etc
 
But it's a place that Saab could chase.
At customer cost of course, Saab isn't doing this work off their own back.

And lets be clear with Canada, the legacy hornets do not have the life left in them to wait for Saab to install a new engine into Gripen, flight test it and then bring it into service. Canada would also have to accept less performance from an already underpowered airframe.
 
Nice offert:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/saab-gripen-canada-production-pitch-capacity

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2026/09...gh-as-10000-and-ottawa-still-has-not-decided/

"Roughly 10 major industrial partners and 250 suppliers would build the aircraft. Saab estimates 50 percent of the JAS 39 Gripen and GlobalEye work would land in Quebec, 26 percent in Ontario, 14 percent in Western Canada and 10 percent in Atlantic Canada. A separate July 17 agreement puts pilot training with Montreal’s CAE."
 
Independence from restrictions of a more and more impredictible US would be an interresting thing to have not only for different customers around the world but also for the european states.
https://www.euinsider.eu/news/eu-defense-itar-free-europe-rearm

https://breakingdefense.com/2026/08/europe-wants-itar-free-weapons-us-firms-are-trying-to-adjust/

Anyway, General Electric could try to adjust his offers to the new global situation, as other major american suppliers are doing.
https://www.globalbankingandfinance.com/honeywell-aero-develop-defense-products-europe-outside-us/


And in Canada, the things are not going well for future orders of F-35, beyond the one already beeing in delivery.
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/f-35-the-canadian-fighter-pilo/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-fuhr-canada-defence-procurement-rcaf-f35-9.7333073
 
Independence from restrictions of a more and more impredictible US would be an interresting thing to have not only for different customers around the world but also for the european states.
Engine is not customers independence from US, it's Saab independence from obvious US interference (if US would really want SAAB dead, it'll perform more or less the way Antonov did).

For customer, engine isn't that crucial. Engines are long life items nowadays. What actually matters is supply of weapons in case of war, and that part, at any appreciable scale, is entirely up to US favors.

I.e. you honestly aren't getting far away. But years which could've been spent on next generation fighter would be spent on engine contractor tuning your replacement engine.
For example, around 2 non-US fighter engines already developed in Europe as we speak.

P.s. and overall think contingency plans. Because, turns out(current Ukrainian experience) the only thing which will allow you to take off and intercept anytime, regardless of current supply whoes is a goddamn gun.
 
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Nice offert:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/saab-gripen-canada-production-pitch-capacity

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2026/09...gh-as-10000-and-ottawa-still-has-not-decided/

"Roughly 10 major industrial partners and 250 suppliers would build the aircraft. Saab estimates 50 percent of the JAS 39 Gripen and GlobalEye work would land in Quebec, 26 percent in Ontario, 14 percent in Western Canada and 10 percent in Atlantic Canada. A separate July 17 agreement puts pilot training with Montreal’s CAE."
As already explained, it might be a greater % but it is still a % of a smaller overall number when compared to the F-35.
 
I mostly meant that after engines are procured, they're already yours.
Ukraine flies Soviet aircraft; Iran flies American aircraft (for almost half a century at this point). It's troublesome, but you can engineer your way around OEM.

Ah, but you still need spare parts to keep them serviceable.

Solving maintenance isn't a small thing. I agree with your point re the futility of investing in alternate options though.
These examples are good ones. I would also add the Mig-21 Lancer that Romania modernised and used for a quarter of century without any russian support, because it could extend the service life of the airframes and perform engine repairs locally at Aerostar.

Indeed, if you have already the maintenance facility and the necessary technical documentation you can in most cases produce your own replacement parts and make engines/airframes maitenance and repairs. The GKN Aerospace in Sweden can do this for the RM12 and RM 16 engines.

New developments.
View: https://x.com/business/status/2097343725907169396?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E2097343725907169396%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=


This probably will include also Canada buying more european armament. Maybe, also Gripen?
 
Obama admin blocked several Israeli attempts to sell F-16A/B.
The precedent exists.
Was the Trump admin in 2017, https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-blocking-israeli-sale-of-used-f-16s-to-croatia-report/ but the circumstances were a little different.

But we also have a more relevant block of Gripen, that being the UK preventing export to Argentina. While again those circumstances are different given the UK/Argentine history to a potential Canadian sale it shows that a US block wouldn't be a first for Gripen. It is what Saab/Sweden has to live with given the high foreign content in the design.
 
Was the Trump admin in 2017, https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-blocking-israeli-sale-of-used-f-16s-to-croatia-report/ but the circumstances were a little different.

But we also have a more relevant block of Gripen, that being the UK preventing export to Argentina. While again those circumstances are different given the UK/Argentine history to a potential Canadian sale it shows that a US block wouldn't be a first for Gripen. It is what Saab/Sweden has to live with given the high foreign content in the design.
Thanks for the correction.
 
As already explained, it might be a greater % but it is still a % of a smaller overall number when compared to the F-35.
Depends on how you look at the whole situation.
https://www.thestar.com/business/op...cle_068cc7d4-857a-4cfd-92cc-df62fea0c188.html

"If Ottawa chooses the Swedish option, Canada could have its first military aerospace industry since the Second World War, when Canadian factories turned out hundreds of Allied warplanes.
There is no chance of that with F-35 maker Lockheed Martin of Bethesda, Md. Saab has committed to building its Gripen jet fighters in Canada. Lockheed will continue to assemble its F-35s in Fort Worth, Texas.
Saab proposes a Canadian production line to assemble the Gripens, sourcing of components from up to 250 Canadian suppliers, a reported six new R&D centres across Canada, and Canadian access to the software on which the Gripens operate. Lockheed withholds that code from its customers though it is accessible to Trump’s Pentagon.
Lockheed has not matched Saab’s proposed benefits in part because of the RCAF’s strong preference for the F-35."
 
Depends on how you look at the whole situation.
https://www.thestar.com/business/op...cle_068cc7d4-857a-4cfd-92cc-df62fea0c188.html

"If Ottawa chooses the Swedish option, Canada could have its first military aerospace industry since the Second World War, when Canadian factories turned out hundreds of Allied warplanes.
What a load of crap... Canada manufactured F-104s and F-5s domestically and had 110% offset deals with the F-18 and before the Canadians have even accepted a single F-35 have already received 3 billion in industrial work. They also work extensively across other US fighters as suppliers.
There is no chance of that with F-35 maker Lockheed Martin of Bethesda, Md. Saab has committed to building its Gripen jet fighters in Canada. Lockheed will continue to assemble its F-35s in Fort Worth, Texas.
Saab proposes a Canadian production line to assemble the Gripens, sourcing of components from up to 250 Canadian suppliers, a reported six new R&D centres across Canada, and Canadian access to the software on which the Gripens operate. Lockheed withholds that code from its customers though it is accessible to Trump’s Pentagon.
Lockheed has not matched Saab’s proposed benefits in part because of the RCAF’s strong preference for the F-35."
LM cannot sweeten the deal. The Canadian Givt signed the JSF MOU which outlines clearly there are no offsets allowed. Saab promises on industrial work and cooperation are merely words that have little substance to them given their promises and lack of similar investment in critical industries in Brazil and Thailand.
 
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In the case of Brazil there is clearly an investment in the country`s military industry and capabilities.
https://migflug.com/afterburner/es/brazil-first-gripen-e-assembled-embraer-gaviao-peixoto/

"On March 25, a Gripen E fighter jet — designation F-39E, serial FAB 4109 — rolled out of Embraer’s facility in Gavião Peixoto, São Paulo state. It looks identical to every other Gripen E. But this one was built in Brazil, not Sweden. And that changes everything. Brazil just became the first country in Latin America to assemble a modern supersonic combat aircraft on its own soil. Only a handful of nations on Earth can say the same."

What a load of crap... Canada manufactured F-104s and F-5s domestically and had 110% offset deals with the F-18 and before the Canadians have even accepted a single F-35 have already received 3 billion in industrial work. They also work extensively across other US fighters as suppliers.
And how many fighters are going to manufacture in the present, if they go on with the F-35 deal? Zero. And the function as supplier is very uncertain in the future.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/trump-bombardier-truth-social-post-9.7335014

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gj8xx5010o

"U.S. President Donald Trump said Monday that Montreal-based airplane maker Bombardier would no longer be allowed to sell in the United States unless it starts manufacturing in the states.
"NO MORE SELLING BOMBARDIER IN THE UNITED STATES! Their products aren’t good enough!" Trump said in Truth Social post.
"If they want our Market, they must build here, and stop treating America like a 'piggybank.'""


The americans might very well take first the money for the F-35 and than close the US market for canadian suppliers. They just don`t offer an image of a partner which you can trust anymore.
 
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In the case of Brazil there is clearly an investment in the country`s military industry and capabilities.
https://migflug.com/afterburner/es/brazil-first-gripen-e-assembled-embraer-gaviao-peixoto/

"On March 25, a Gripen E fighter jet — designation F-39E, serial FAB 4109 — rolled out of Embraer’s facility in Gavião Peixoto, São Paulo state. It looks identical to every other Gripen E. But this one was built in Brazil, not Sweden. And that changes everything. Brazil just became the first country in Latin America to assemble a modern supersonic combat aircraft on its own soil. Only a handful of nations on Earth can say the same."
Be realistic here Wotan. How can Saab provide the number of jobs suggested? For example when they were bidding for the entire 88 aircraft order five years ago they only promised 6000 jobs but now it is 10,000...

Problem is no one knows except Saab how they even came up with that number including the Canadian Govt themselves...

A spokesperson for her department, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, said it can’t share the details behind Saab’s estimate because it doesn’t have the information.

“The 10K job estimate has been developed by the company. ISED does not have any details on the methodology underlying the estimate,” department spokesperson Justin Simard said in an email.

When the company was bidding on the contract a few years ago, it offered to create 6,000 jobs. That offer came with a promise to stand up research-and-development aerospace centres in the Montreal area.
https://globalnews.ca/news/11562395/saab-fighter-jets-jobs-canada/

Acknowledging Bezan is an F-35 supporter but his claims ring far more true than the 12,000 jobs claimed for just 34 aircraft in Brazil.

Conservative defence critic James Bezan, who has supported the F-35 purchase, has called the review unnecessary and warns it threatens Canadian jobs in the F-35 supply chain.

Bezan told the Commons defence committee Thursday that Brazil’s partnership with Saab has only led to several hundred domestic jobs, “not the numbers that get thrown around here.”
Same link as above.

And how many fighters are going to manufacture in the present, if they go on with the F-35 deal? Zero. And the function as supplier is very uncertain in the future.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/trump-bombardier-truth-social-post-9.7335014
Why does Canada need to assemble the aircraft themselves? What value is there for Canada to do that. It employs maybe 300 people for about four years while the aircraft is being built and then those jobs go away. Canada despite Saab claims won't be building any for Ukraine, Ukraine has made it quite clear they want to build them themselves and will have a lower cost base than Canada doing so.

Conversely the work on F-35 supports a program that will manufacture more than ten times the number of aircraft compared to Gripen E and then support those aircraft until the 2070s. That is far more valuable to Canada than assembling Gripen E which will be out of service 20 years from now with most operators.
The americans might very well take first the money for the F-35 and than close the US market for canadian suppliers. They just don`t offer an image of a partner which you can trust anymore.
That isn't how the JSF program works. If you don't want to make silly claims then do some research first and back up your claims with factual information.

If you can't trust the US then don't buy an aircraft that has over 30% US content...
 
Why does Canada need to assemble the aircraft themselves? What value is there for Canada to do that. It employs maybe 300 people for about four years while the aircraft is being built and then those jobs go away. Canada despite Saab claims won't be building any for Ukraine, Ukraine has made it quite clear they want to build them themselves and will have a lower cost base than Canada doing so.

It is good to produce your own weapons because in this way you will not be dependant of the decisions of the politicians from other countries. We live in very unstable times.

And why should the jobs go away? Saab and Bombardier have a long and successful cooperation.
https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...n-fighter-jets-globe-mail-reports-2025-11-13/

The expertise created and the specialists can be used at Bombardier to build other products in the future.


Some fresh news from the canadian and EU politicians.
https://www.policymagazine.ca/elevating-europe-canada-and-the-eus-new-ambition/

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...ing-canada-associate-member-of-eu-wsj-reports

We all know how important is the politics in the domain of weapons aquistion...
1789307339774.png
 
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"If Ottawa chooses the Swedish option, Canada could have its first military aerospace industry since the Second World War, when Canadian factories turned out hundreds of Allied warplanes.
There is no chance of that with F-35 maker Lockheed Martin of Bethesda, Md. Saab has committed to building its Gripen jet fighters in Canada. Lockheed will continue to assemble its F-35s in Fort Worth, Texas.
Do the maths. Even if Canada were to purchase the Gripen and also get production of the Ukrainian, Thai and Columbian ones (I am assuming Sewdish and Brazilian ones are off the table) you are at most talking about 250 jets. And that assumes Saab gives up on all those jobs in Sweden. Compare this to another 1500 odd F-35s to be built on top of the components for the 1300 odd already done and for which industry is already tooled up. IF tooling up for new Gripen production, especially a FACO line, who is going to pay for that?
Lockheed has not matched Saab’s proposed benefits in part because of the RCAF’s strong preference for the F-35."
Gee, I wonder why RCAF prefers the F-35?
 
It is good to produce your own weapons because in this way you will not be dependant of the decisions of the politicians from other countries. We live in very unstable times.

And why should the jobs go away? Saab and Bombardier have a long and successful cooperation.
https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...n-fighter-jets-globe-mail-reports-2025-11-13/

The expertise created and the specialists can be used at Bombardier to build other products in the future.


Some fresh news from the canadian and EU politicians.
https://www.policymagazine.ca/elevating-europe-canada-and-the-eus-new-ambition/

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...ing-canada-associate-member-of-eu-wsj-reports

We all know how important is the politics in the domain of weapons aquistion...
Look I understand the emotions at play in situations like Canada and I understand comments such as "good to produce your own weapons" but please try to include a dose of realism in this. A lot of things being written in this thread are showing extreme ignorance of the reality of how things such as aircraft production and the like actually occur.
 
Look I understand the emotions at play in situations like Canada and I understand comments such as "good to produce your own weapons" but please try to include a dose of realism in this. A lot of things being written in this thread are showing extreme ignorance of the reality of how things such as aircraft production and the like actually occur.

All this talk suggesting Saab should re-engine the Gripen with a European engine, developing their own missiles, etc so Canada can be less dependent on the US.

Meanwhile, French aircraft and weapons exist, right now. I don't understand this aversion to French systems.
 
All this talk suggesting Saab should re-engine the Gripen with a European engine, developing their own missiles, etc so Canada can be less dependent on the US.

Meanwhile, French aircraft and weapons exist, right now. I don't understand this aversion to French systems.
Because certain crowds on the Internet have, for years, championed the Gripen as some sort of revolutionary, rugged and capable fighter of the Western Bloc. Even though it's actually not that special, expensive to procure and the fighter of the Western Bloc is the F-16/F-35. These people, a distinct sort of people, have for whatever reason done more marketing for Saab for free than Saab has ever done for themselves.

Meanwhile the Rafale as secured export orders with a multitude of countries from all sorts of global alignments and remained attractive because it has, unlike Saab, zero association to the US and UK and because Dassault/the French MIC has (unlike Saab) always prioritized independence and attractiveness on the export market. Which is why Mirages and Rafales fly in all corners of the world and why Sweden has like a single Gripen E.

Anyone who genuinely believes Canada would drop the F-35 for the Gripen over mean tweets from a temporarily elected official is beyond naive and quite possibly genuinely delusional. It's exhausting that this shit has even taken a hold in this forum beyond YouTube, Twitter, Reddit and TikTok.
 
...Anyone who genuinely believes Canada would drop the F-35 for the Gripen over mean tweets from a temporarily elected official is beyond naive and quite possibly genuinely delusional. It's exhausting that this shit has even taken a hold in this forum beyond YouTube, Twitter, Reddit and TikTok.

You may be right about Gripen fan-boys but you've also swerved 6,750 km out of your lane while trying to gauge Canadian sentiments from Germany. Go ahead and decide for yourself which of your own domestic sovereignty threats signify and which do not. But what qualifies you to second-guess Canada or its government?

The conclusion you deride is being adopted by a growing portion of the Canadian population (the people paying for the aircraft). So it might be best if you stick to gauging the mental health of Germans while Canadians decide for ourselves when we're being "naive [or] delusional".

We are now deep in the political weeds here because that is where events outside of Canada's control have left us all. Ultimately, it is up to Canadians alone whether we succumb to US pressure; cave to DAR 5's preferences; take on a mixed fighter fleet; or buy those less-than-perfect Gripens.
 
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Neither Rafale nor Eurofighter propose something Canada really needs. Gripen does, it (substantially) reduces costs
The call for tender was found biaised from the beginning by the two other eurocanards. No time to spent.
But yes, Gripen offer an affordable solution, with some limitation as range. It is why combined with another longer legs jets it is clever.
 
Gripen E for Canada, as part of a mixed fleet with F-35s, probably causes more cost issues due on the additional logistics, despite having a lower operational cost than F-35s. Not sure if NORAD compliance will be pushed but it could add to costs as well. it also doesn't really give content independence either due to parts from the US. But politically.. the general public doesn't really know or care too much. All they will see is "our leaders are sticking it to the US by buying Swedish", and that increases political support.

If it were me, I'd get the FA-50 instead to serve as a lead in fighter trainer to replace the Hawk, and to do light policing, leaving the remaining F/A-18s and F-35s to do the front line work, as well as giving pilots more flying hours. Long term, invest in GCAP if they still want to reduce dependency on the US.
As Canada use F404 engine, switching to F414 will not be a huge effort. As the engine is a big part of the maintenance cost.
 
As Canada use F404 engine, switching to F414 will not be a huge effort. As the engine is a big part of the maintenance cost.
you're replying to a post I made more than half a year ago. Since then Canada has indicated they're going with Leonardo
 
A game of costs.
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2026/09...t-has-no-stealth-airframe-and-a-handful-of-c/

"Reported unit prices for the Gripen E sit around $85 million, though older program-wide estimates have run higher, and its flight-hour operating cost is widely cited in the roughly $4,700–$9,900 per hour range depending on the source and variant, dramatically below most 4th- and 5th-generation competitors.

-F-35A: Unit prices are commonly cited at around $80–85 million per aircraft, with an hourly operating cost of $38,000–$42,000, though the Pentagon has publicly pushed to bring that closer to $30,000."

"Sensor fusion, all-aspect low observability, and stealth-first mission planning are real advantages the F-22 and F-35 hold.

It’s that the Gripen is optimized for a different equation entirely: buy and fly more aircraft, keep them dispersed and hard to catch on the ground, and let software upgrades, not a new airframe, ensure that it is a viable aircraft through the next decade. "
 
The economies are not lost. There is a huge difference of costs in operating these two different fighters. 5.000$/hour versus 30.000$/hour. If most of the fleet will consist of Gripens then the savings will be significant.
Try numbers that aren't from Saab's marketing department. Also, try comparing apples with apples, not oranges to peaches.

You can pull reasonable data from Legacy Hornets.

Find a breakout that shows cost per engine hour for the F404. Then take the total Legacy Hornet CPFH and subtract one engine's cost per flight hour.

likely around 15k.
 
Try numbers that aren't from Saab's marketing department. Also, try comparing apples with apples, not oranges to peaches.

You can pull reasonable data from Legacy Hornets.

Find a breakout that shows cost per engine hour for the F404. Then take the total Legacy Hornet CPFH and subtract one engine's cost per flight hour.

likely around 15k.
We also have the Finnish evaluation in which all vendors had to fit below a specific yearly operating cost. Saab did it with their fleet of Gripen and Two Globaleye factored in while F-35 achieved it with just the aircraft itself. No one is claiming F-35 and Gripen are the same cost to operate but then they are also vastly different airframes in capability and lethality.
 
Because certain crowds on the Internet have, for years, championed the Gripen as some sort of revolutionary, rugged and capable fighter of the Western Bloc. Even though it's actually not that special, expensive to procure and the fighter of the Western Bloc is the F-16/F-35. These people, a distinct sort of people, have for whatever reason done more marketing for Saab for free than Saab has ever done for themselves.

Meanwhile the Rafale as secured export orders with a multitude of countries from all sorts of global alignments and remained attractive because it has, unlike Saab, zero association to the US and UK and because Dassault/the French MIC has (unlike Saab) always prioritized independence and attractiveness on the export market. Which is why Mirages and Rafales fly in all corners of the world and why Sweden has like a single Gripen E.

Anyone who genuinely believes Canada would drop the F-35 for the Gripen over mean tweets from a temporarily elected official is beyond naive and quite possibly genuinely delusional. It's exhausting that this shit has even taken a hold in this forum beyond YouTube, Twitter, Reddit and TikTok.

So there are a few things which are worth considering EmoBirb.

I'll explain a bit of the political situation:

(1) The American President (and to some extent the Vice President) has expressed a desire to annex Canada, has repeatedly called into question whether our country is sovereign.

(2) The American ambassador has met with separatists (including some who were previously implicated in an attempt to overthrow the government).

(3) The American government has launched a trade war with stated demands to prevent it including Canada violating its Constitutional requirements to protect the French language and Canada giving up sovereignty over foreign trade (making us entirely dependent on U.S. trade and foreign policy in economic matters).

There are all objective facts (I can provide evidence for all of them if necessary). The Canadian response is also an objective fact.

Now here is the key point: At any time the Republican representatives in Congress and the Senate could have stopped this. If even a handful of them could have done so.

So think about what that looks like from a Canadian perspective - it is not a single politician, but an entire political party cooperating with policies explicitly stated as having the goal of removing your country from existence... policies they could stop if they wanted to.

The result is that, even if the U.S. government changes soon it'll take years (perhaps decades) for many Canadians to feel that they can trust that the U.S. government isn't more than one election away from becoming hostile.

I think it is important for everyone to realise, including Republicans, that this is simply the way a lot of Canadians will see this. Regardless of who you support politically, this is the reality of the situation. I'm writing this out mainly because a lot of Americans, and a lot of people Internationally, may not be aware of these factors.



Then we come to question of procurement strategy:

What capability would we lose that we actually need in a foreseeable deployment?

Canadian requirements need to be understood to be similar to naval requirements - for practical purposes most of the Canadian North may as well be ocean (e.g. in terms of resupply, search and rescue)... and one needs to think in terms of operating from airfields that can go below minus 38 degrees centigrade. What is the readiness of the F-35 in Artic conditions operating out of short strips?
(Note: Many of the older generation in Canada would strongly prefer a twin engine design - but the F-35 isn't particularly winning on that count either).

Reduced overall costs of the JAS-39 would allow reserving more funds for buying into FCAS and procuring drone/counter-drone capabilities. At the same time the Gripen could act as a 'bridging' procurement to maintain our manned fighter aircraft capability.

Whereas the U.S. Ambassador threatened Canada with 'consequences' if we didn't buy the F-35, the Swedish proposal offers a technology transfer and a factory - things which would build our economic capability and ties with potential buyers in Europe (and potential for even pivoting towards selling non-ITAR compliant products someday - which could open up global sales if relations with the United States were to continue to decline).

As you can see, the F-35 has many benefits - but it isn't like there isn't a compelling case for the JAS-39 as well... both have considerable merits.
 
Do the maths. Even if Canada were to purchase the Gripen and also get production of the Ukrainian, Thai and Columbian ones (I am assuming Sewdish and Brazilian ones are off the table) you are at most talking about 250 jets. And that assumes Saab gives up on all those jobs in Sweden. Compare this to another 1500 odd F-35s to be built on top of the components for the 1300 odd already done and for which industry is already tooled up. IF tooling up for new Gripen production, especially a FACO line, who is going to pay for that?

Gee, I wonder why RCAF prefers the F-35?

You are assuming there is no technology transfer, no Gripen derived CCA, and no future collaboration...

Admittedly, buying into the JSF program made sense (especially when it didn't involve having to actually commit to buying the airframe), as it opened the door to Canadian subcontractors. Doing something similar with European projects (e.g. a SAAB CCA or FCAS) could have similar knock-on effects.

It is only an issue if the U.S. bans all Canadian subcontractors in retaliation for us not buying only U.S. products... but that might happen anyway at this point... and the main thing preventing it is not wanting to disrupt already integrated U.S. military supply chains.

I agree though that final assembly is secondary to having the capacity to build key components (e.g. avionics, radar)... the question is: Who is more likely going to bring us the opportunities to develop those capacities: The United States or the European Union? The long run picture is more complex.

Fundamentally though, one has to think of it in terms of strategy: If we show that we can buy from other allies, than the United States might have to agree to transfer more technology to keep us militarily integrated... it gives us leverage at the very least.
 
I also don't understand why people are immediately gravitating towards Gripen. It would be procurement malpractice to look at only 1 option for a dual fleet (and one that is likely the least capable).

A proper procurement process would include a competitive evaluation of other off-the-shelf fighters (e.g. KF-21 and Rafale) as well as out-of-the-box solutions such as an interim stop-gap + longer-term solution (e.g. second hand Eurofighters + GCAP). It would look at the pros and cons, risk, cost & capability tradeoffs and try to identify a really strong alternative to the F-35.

Otherwise the most likely outcome is that the Gripen comes up short during the evaluation (higher cost than expected, lower performance etc), leaving Canada stuck with buying more F-35s.
 
I also don't understand why people are immediately gravitating towards Gripen. It would be procurement malpractice to look at only 1 option for a dual fleet (and one that is likely the least capable).

It didn't happen immediately. We did initially purchase the F-35 without a competition.

It was only with a change of government that a decision was made to have a competition - with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, Super Hornet, and F-35 as potential candidates.

Eurofighter and Rafale both withdrew (mainly over compatibility issues with the Americans). The down-select excluded the Super Hornet.

This left the F-35 and the JAS-39 as the two final competitors. So the JAS-39 was the result of a competition once we finally decided to one.
 
Ok, so what are you proposing is on offer? Show some numbers and facts.

I'll leave that up to SAAB to make the pitch. But the point is that these are multi-stage processes involving technology transfers, collaborations, and International cooperation.

There is a lot to negotiate, but it is quite plausible that SAAB could offer a situation that would have long term benefits for Canadian manufacturing and capabilities... especially if SAAB ends up producing a CCA for use alongside future European fighters etc.

As for numbers overall - I don't have a detailed breakdown of workshare involving subcontractors and subsubcontractors on the JSF (or how that might change as a result of tariffs)... so I can't give a picture that is fair to Lockheed.
 
So there are a few things which are worth considering EmoBirb.

I'll explain a bit of the political situation:

(1) The American President (and to some extent the Vice President) has expressed a desire to annex Canada, has repeatedly called into question whether our country is sovereign.

(2) The American ambassador has met with separatists (including some who were previously implicated in an attempt to overthrow the government).

(3) The American government has launched a trade war with stated demands to prevent it including Canada violating its Constitutional requirements to protect the French language and Canada giving up sovereignty over foreign trade (making us entirely dependent on U.S. trade and foreign policy in economic matters).

There are all objective facts (I can provide evidence for all of them if necessary). The Canadian response is also an objective fact.

Now here is the key point: At any time the Republican representatives in Congress and the Senate could have stopped this. If even a handful of them could have done so.

So think about what that looks like from a Canadian perspective - it is not a single politician, but an entire political party cooperating with policies explicitly stated as having the goal of removing your country from existence... policies they could stop if they wanted to.

The result is that, even if the U.S. government changes soon it'll take years (perhaps decades) for many Canadians to feel that they can trust that the U.S. government isn't more than one election away from becoming hostile.

I think it is important for everyone to realise, including Republicans, that this is simply the way a lot of Canadians will see this. Regardless of who you support politically, this is the reality of the situation. I'm writing this out mainly because a lot of Americans, and a lot of people Internationally, may not be aware of these factors.
While the trade war is real what isn't and has never been taken seriously by the Canadian Govt is the annexation claims. Were that to be the case then military cooperation would have ceased, it most certainly hasn't, and the ordering of new military equipment from the US would have ceased, it most certainly hasn't.

Then we come to question of procurement strategy:

What capability would we lose that we actually need in a foreseeable deployment?

Canadian requirements need to be understood to be similar to naval requirements - for practical purposes most of the Canadian North may as well be ocean (e.g. in terms of resupply, search and rescue)... and one needs to think in terms of operating from airfields that can go below minus 38 degrees centigrade. What is the readiness of the F-35 in Artic conditions operating out of short strips?
(Note: Many of the older generation in Canada would strongly prefer a twin engine design - but the F-35 isn't particularly winning on that count either).
This simply isn't accurate. For starters F-35 has been flying in the Artic for a long time. Norway flies the aircraft up that way, the US has stationed F-35s in Alaska for years and bases a whole wing of them at Eielson AFB. Finland has ordered it and intents to operate it from highways.

What short strips does the RCAF use for fighter jets in the Canadian North? The answer is none because there are none. From a Billie Flynn blog here
Dispersed operations on northern roads work in Scandinavia and Germany because the roads are engineered for it: roads made to act as temporary runways. Canada has none of that. Here, it’s a myth. No one in the RCAF takes it seriously. It just makes for good marketing.
He also has a second runway myth here worth reviewing.

As for the two engine concern, you know the Gripen only has one engine right? The F-35 has already flown more total flight hours than the Gripen fleet. Only one F-35A incident has been attributed to engine issues way back in 2014, wasn't inflight and was before the aircraft was IOC.

Reduced overall costs of the JAS-39 would allow reserving more funds for buying into FCAS and procuring drone/counter-drone capabilities. At the same time the Gripen could act as a 'bridging' procurement to maintain our manned fighter aircraft capability.
But in acquiring Gripen the RCAF spends more money. The acquisition cost is little different, the operating cost not enough to make up for duplicating all the things needed to support a dual fleet of fighters and the reason the RCAF went to a single fleet with the CF-18 and why the new Canadian fighter capability was also for a single fleet.

Whereas the U.S. Ambassador threatened Canada with 'consequences' if we didn't buy the F-35, the Swedish proposal offers a technology transfer and a factory - things which would build our economic capability and ties with potential buyers in Europe (and potential for even pivoting towards selling non-ITAR compliant products someday - which could open up global sales if relations with the United States were to continue to decline).
What technological transfer can Saab actually provide? What is unique about the Gripen that Canadian industry does not already understand? The radar isn't Swedish, the engine isn't Swedish, the IRST isn't Swedish. Only about 30% by content is actually Swedish origin. The avionics, sure but Canada knows how to build software so nothing unique here. The fuselage and other hardware, Canada already know how to build planes and Bombardier already has higher yearly production volumes than Saab for aircraft. The EW suite but Canada has a strong domestic industry and know how in the field as well as access to NATO and NORAD knowledge. datalinks but Canada already operates high end data links equivalent to what Saab could provide and Saab giving Canada technology in data links isn't going to light up Canadian industry for the next 20 years.

Saab offering a factory is a false economic claim. It would be to assemble Canadian jets only from essentially foreign made parts. No IRST, no radar, almost certainly not all of the fuselage so it becomes to an extent kit assembly. There will also be no aircraft made for Ukraine who has already stated they want to assemble Gripen themselves.

As you can see, the F-35 has many benefits - but it isn't like there isn't a compelling case for the JAS-39 as well... both have considerable merits.
I honestly cannot see a compelling case for the Gripen. I can see a compelling case for rafale or Eurofighter given they have almost no US dependance. The Gripen is not that and if the intent is to operate a fighter aircraft that isn't dependent on the US then Gripen is not that jet. In the case of the Rafale Canada would also have to adopt a whole new fleet of weapons which would be a hidden cost.

The more compelling case for F-35 is Canadian GCAP acquisition. The GCAP partners are all F-35 operators and are designing the jet to be interoperable with the F-35. If Canada does go the GCAP route which airframe gets replaced by GCAP, a now out of date 4th gen platform or a 5th gen platform the GCAP operators also operate and intent to use for 30+ more years?
 
It didn't happen immediately. We did initially purchase the F-35 without a competition.

It was only with a change of government that a decision was made to have a competition - with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, Super Hornet, and F-35 as potential candidates.

Eurofighter and Rafale both withdrew (mainly over compatibility issues with the Americans). The down-select excluded the Super Hornet.

This left the F-35 and the JAS-39 as the two final competitors. So the JAS-39 was the result of a competition once we finally decided to one.
No initial purchase of F-35 was made without a competition. Yes Canada signed the JSF Memorandum, but no purchase was made until after the competition.

A change of Govt where Trudeau said he will never buy the F-35 but then after a competition ended up buying the F-35... Why was that decision made, well we know the answer, the Gripen was simply not competitive.

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You are assuming there is no technology transfer, no Gripen derived CCA, and no future collaboration...
At the moment Saab does not project the A3 CCA arriving before 2035-40 timeframe and only capable of SEAD/DEAD after 2040 at the earliest...

timeline.png

What does Canada give up by aligning itself with a CCA that is likely going to be 5 years minimum behind US/UK systems and like the Gripen E probably be late into service.
 
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