What if Britian, Australia and Canada joined to build a 30,000t Invincible Class?

[Caryina2642]

This is based off Naval History with Dr Alex video " What if 1970s Britian joined with Australia & Canada to build a 'Maxium' Invincible Class Instead?"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlr3LIEN9l0&t=5034s


Dr Alex poposed specs for this Invicible class are
Displacement: 30,000t light & 38,000t fully loaded, Length: 255m, Beam: 44m, Draught: 9.8m, Power: COGAG 6x RR Olympus TM3B 150,00shp, Speed: 32knots, Range: 8,000nmi at 18knots, Personal: 750 ships company, 450 air crew & 500 Marines, Sensors & Processing Systems: Type 1022 Air Search Radar, Type 996 Surface Search Radar, Type 1006/1007 Navigation Radar, Type 909 Fire Control Radar & Type 2016 Sonar, Armament: Sea Dart Missile System Fwd, Sea Wolf Missile System Fwd Starboard & Aft Port & 4x 20mm Guns, Aircraft: 24x Sea Harrier, 20x Sea King HAS & 4x Sea King AEW & Aviation Facilities: 214m Axial Flight Deck & 10 degree ski jump

I would think any Australian or Canadian vessel would have different radars & Armament, with SM-1 replacing the Sea Dart, i can see them keeping seawolf though. One thing i could see is Ikara M6 being added to these vessels and maybe AShM such as Sea Eagle or Harpoon aswell?

Whats the effect if Britian buys 3-4 to replace its CV fleet, Australia buys 1-2 to replace Melbourne and Canada buys 1-2 to repalce Bonaventure?
Would Australia build the DDL in this scenario, cause the RAN not going to want to escort this carrier with what they considered a 2nd tier escort the OHP?
Does Australia also build HMAS Protector AOE to replenish the Carrier in this scenario?
Does Canada dust off its 60s DDG project instead of building DDHs in this scenario?
What does britian do for escort wise in this scenario?

 

[Archibald]

You could throw Spain and Italy into the mix.
Between the three Invincibles plus Ocean plus Garibaldi and Asturias, European navies had enough budget wiggle room for six ships.

With a little luck - after the nuclear powered, 18 000 tons PH.75 gave way to PA.75 CdG in 1980, France may join the party and buy a single unit to replace the much regretted Arromanches, 1951-1974. That Colossus class carrier become a swiss-knife of a ship in half a dozen roles. PH.75 would have been mostly similar.

 

[uk 75]

The problem is the Sea Harrier does not exist asmetal until the end of the decade. Invincible survived because the RN needed a modern ship to carry Seakings and even HM Treasury accepted this and the role of commanding an ASW task group for SACLANT.

In another thread I suggested that a CTOL carrier about the size of Hermes or better still Eagle.could have been built.instead of Invincible and PH75 if Heath and Pompidou accepted a design.. It would operate Crusaders and Buccaneers or Super Etendard Ks developed with BAC.

But another scenario closer to your one is that Sea Harrier gets built and flown at the beginning of the 70s and work also starts on the Mach 3 one.

 

[GTX]

The problem is the Sea Harrier does not exist asmetal until the end of the decade.

In operational terms, yes. But even in the 1960s trials with the earlier P.1127 were conducted. The Sea Harrier was ordered by the RN in 1975. If there was a more significant requirement underway, it is not inconceivable for the Sea Harrier to become reality slightly earlier. For that matter, if a new, larger Invincible class is developed with multiple users involved, is it not inconceivable that something akin to the Hawker Siddeley P.1154 could be revived?

 

[zen]

44m is 144ft which must be the flight deck.
The practical limit on beam waterline is 36.28m or 119ft at Devonport No10, being 123ft. Giving 2ft each side.

 

[Caryina2642]

For that matter, if a new, larger Invincible class is developed with multiple users involved, is it not inconceivable that something akin to the Hawker Siddeley P.1154 could be revived?

So its possible that a supersonic sea harrier is developed in this scenario? Do we see the sea harrier also carrying skyflash missile instead of just AIM9s?

 

[Scott Kenny]

For that matter, if a new, larger Invincible class is developed with multiple users involved, is it not inconceivable that something akin to the Hawker Siddeley P.1154 could be revived?

Maybe?

It'd still have to be single engined, so P.1154-RAF. Why? Because twin engine VTOL means that either engine failing is a loss of the aircraft. Two engines does not make you less likely to lose the aircraft, it makes you more likely to crash during takeoff and landing!!

And honestly, the P.1154-RAF is about 8000lbs overweight. As designed, the P.1154-RAF absolutely had to take off using PCB. 31klb MTOW while the BS100 only made 26klbs without PCB. Plus, the weapons load is only ~3000lbs (2x Red Top plus 2x 1000lb bombs). I'd really want to get the "new P1154" down to about 18,000lbs empty, only 5000lbs heavier than the p1127 Harrier GR.3. And likely 1000lbs of that increased empty weight is in the BS100, so only 4000lbs airframe weight growth over the GR.3.

 

[Archibald]

From Mr Pryce stupendous Harrier book:
2 x PCB flanking a rear fuselage is kind of hopeless. P.1154 would have had severe vibrations /heat / accoustic issues. Even without PCB the Harrier rear fuselage is a critical maintenance area.

There are only 2 solutions
-P.1216 that is 1xPCB and twin booms
-X-32 that is a 90 degree rotating nozzle

Both keep the Harrier "cold" swivelling nozzles in the front. But they tackle the rear exhaust issue in different ways.

 

[zen]

I'll throw the hybrid Guided Weapon Ship-Carrier from the late 50's and early 60’s into this mix. Who's cancellation was intimately tied into the CVA-01 getting wind in it's sails so to speak.

As that was around 30,000tons. Though steam plant driven.

But was either Seaslug or NIGS armed in terms of SAM.
However had it continued then it would have gained NMBR.11 a.k.a CF.299 a.k.a Sea Dart as part of a revised program.

Not cancelling would allow this to bridge the transition from CATOBAR to STOVL.

There is a study of a Pegasus powered Kestrel/Harrier for higher transonic and low supersonic speed. Though area ruling a longer fusilage with a more swept wing.

 

[Stellerfella]

We (Aus) were going to buy Invincible, but... Then... The Falklands happened.

 

[GK. Dundas]

This is based off Naval History with Dr Alex video " What if 1970s Britian joined with Australia & Canada to build a 'Maxium' Invincible Class Instead?"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlr3LIEN9l0&t=5034s


Dr Alex poposed specs for this Invicible class are
Displacement: 30,000t light & 38,000t fully loaded, Length: 255m, Beam: 44m, Draught: 9.8m, Power: COGAG 6x RR Olympus TM3B 150,00shp, Speed: 32knots, Range: 8,000nmi at 18knots, Personal: 750 ships company, 450 air crew & 500 Marines, Sensors & Processing Systems: Type 1022 Air Search Radar, Type 996 Surface Search Radar, Type 1006/1007 Navigation Radar, Type 909 Fire Control Radar & Type 2016 Sonar, Armament: Sea Dart Missile System Fwd, Sea Wolf Missile System Fwd Starboard & Aft Port & 4x 20mm Guns, Aircraft: 24x Sea Harrier, 20x Sea King HAS & 4x Sea King AEW & Aviation Facilities: 214m Axial Flight Deck & 10 degree ski jump

I would think any Australian or Canadian vessel would have different radars & Armament, with SM-1 replacing the Sea Dart, i can see them keeping seawolf though. One thing i could see is Ikara M6 being added to these vessels and maybe AShM such as Sea Eagle or Harpoon aswell?

Whats the effect if Britian buys 3-4 to replace its CV fleet, Australia buys 1-2 to replace Melbourne and Canada buys 1-2 to repalce Bonaventure?
Would Australia build the DDL in this scenario, cause the RAN not going to want to escort this carrier with what they considered a 2nd tier escort the OHP?
Does Australia also build HMAS Protector AOE to replenish the Carrier in this scenario?
Does Canada dust off its 60s DDG project instead of building DDHs in this scenario?
What does britian do for escort wise in this scenario?

As for the Canadian variant I suspect that the any area missile system is quietly strangled in its crib . Vertical launch sea sparrow. possibly, Phalanx CIWS certainly.
Radars are a topic I'm less familiar with and will leave that discussion to others until I'm more familiar with it.
The real fun part involves interservice politics as to who flys the Sea Harriers.
Air Command had some real issues on this
If this had ever happened in real life I could honestly see the Airforce GOFOs outside the Billy Bishop building in Winnipeg threating airstrikes on Halifax and Shearwater.