SCALP / Storm Shadow / MdCN

timmymagic said:
I think SCALP Mk.2 is effectively new production SCALP-EG MLU, perhaps with some minor enhancements, as opposed to the re-manufactured SCALP-EG MLU.
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The Meretmarine article is quite specific that SCALP Mk2 uses French components shared with MdCN Mk2. Perhaps some of the capabilities are similar to Storm Shadow MLU, but its unclear whether any of the upgraded components have been carried over from MBDA UK to MBDA FR.
 
H_K said:
The Meretmarine article is quite specific that SCALP Mk2 uses French components shared with MdCN Mk2. Perhaps some of the capabilities are similar to Storm Shadow MLU, but its unclear whether any of the upgraded components have been carried over from MBDA UK to MBDA FR.
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Some minor components...they're not replacing the body, engine, warhead, control systems etc.
 
No Stratus RS in sight …
https://twitter.com/x/status/2074827714909901143

RS is referenced here -> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...trike-capabilities-as-uk-leads-new-initiative
Working with France and Italy, the UK is also designing the next generation successor to the battle-proven Storm Shadow missile.

Called Stratus, the trilateral project is developing both stealth and high-speed missile variants, which will be able to defeat high-value targets, destroy enemy ships, and suppress enemy air defences. The UK is investing £1.4bn into the project over the next four years.

The Stratus project already sustains more than 1,300 jobs in the UK at MBDA in Stevenage and Bolton.
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Titus K said:
Of course not, why bother ?
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Because this was never intended as competition because they know what they want.
Titus K said:
That said, Germany is also a member of ELSA, under which MBDA is offering the LCM...
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Has / is ELSA even there and actualy offering something? Even then ELSA developments where allways intended to operate alongside Tomahawk.
 
I don't know what to tell you, you literally posted this yourself…
kqcke for you said:
Wasn't LCM an ELSA contender?
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I'm simply pointing out that there is a European (France is in Europe) ground-launched alternative that would have been available through ELSA (of which Germany is a member) as early as 2029 in the Mk1 version and 2030 for the Mk2.
 
Titus K said:
I don't know what to tell you, you literally posted this yourself…
I'm simply pointing out that there is a European (France is in Europe) ground-launched alternative that would have been available through ELSA (of which Germany is a member) as early as 2029 in the Mk1 version and 2030 for the Mk2.
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Let me change my wording:
Is / has there been an official offering under ELSA for this procurement (because it doesn't seem like that) and if so has this satisfied the requierments?

Yes i know you likely can't give the answer that would clear this up and again this development was run even back then independ of ELSA and does not mean that they wont procure any future weapons like LCM or similiar under ELSA for the same / similiar job.
 
kqcke for you said:
Let me change my wording:
Is / has there been an official offering under ELSA for this procurement (because it doesn't seem like that) and if so has this satisfied the requierments?
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https://forcesoperations.com/le-mis...rme-pour-une-frappe-longue-portee-europeenne/
Unveiled in June at the Eurosatory trade show, the LCM has, four months later, become an option capable of rapidly addressing the requirement expressed by France, Italy, Germany, Poland and, more recently, Sweden and the United Kingdom. Presented as “a possible short-term contribution to ELSA” by French Minister of the Armed Forces Sébastien Lecornu, this land-based version of the Naval Cruise Missile could indeed be available “very quickly”, MBDA confirmed this week at the Euronaval exhibition.
...
“We are proposing to take this NCM missile and, essentially, integrate it onto a truck and present it as an almost immediately available capability for Europe,” says an industry executive whose teams are ramping up efforts on the subject. “When we were not in this period of a potential return to high-intensity conflict, firing a missile like this from a truck was not an obvious choice. Now, it is clearly a requirement that is emerging everywhere,” he adds.
...
MBDA states that the NCM and the LCM are the only European solutions available in this capability segment and able to address the challenges of sovereignty and supply-chain independence. Rather than relying on support from the United States, which has become more uncertain, “customers of the LCM or the NCM will belong to an exclusive club of countries possessing a very long-range precision strike capability from land, or from above or below the surface,” explains the European group.
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kqcke for you said:
The first battery is expected to be ready for this task force in 2029.
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So a stop-gap delivered as late as the European solution ...
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/eurosato...tem-for-the-lcm-the-land-cruise-missile-mk-ii
MBDA will make available the first GLS in 2029, the launcher being developed on company funds.
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I'm even confident that with German industrial participation, the LCM Mk1/2 could have been avaible even quicker
https://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda-unveils-naval-cruise-missile-land-cruise-missile-mk2-eurosatory
Open to European cooperation, the NCM-LCM MK2 is as a flagship innovation from MBDA.
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I wonder whether the tooling and equipment from the UK Storm Shadow production line will be transferred to Ukraine, given that the UK is abandoning plans to restart production and Macron has announced licensed production in Ukraine.

Also, could we see SCALP integrated on the Gripen E one day, since Taurus seems to still be unavailable?
 
Agreed Titus K since the Ukrainian's managed to integrate the Storm Shadow/SCALP onto the Su-24 without any problems so I would think that given time they could be able to do likewise the same to the Gripen E.
 
FighterJock said:
Agreed Titus K since the Ukrainian's managed to integrate the Storm Shadow/SCALP onto the Su-24 without any problems so I would think that given time they could be able to do likewise the same to the Gripen E.
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Su-24m is integration with a huge *.
Gripen should be a proper one...
 
Gripen E should be relatively straghtforward to intergrate Storm Shadow/SCALP compared to the Su-24 Ainen, just like what we did to get the Storm Shadow intergrated to the Typhoon.
 
There are middleware solutions to platform integration now adays, where a pylon adapter handles the translation/configuration differences of the weapon and pretends to be something else already configured in the carrier aircraft’s inventory. The U.S. recently created a Harpoon integration for F-16 as an experiment. These solutions probably limit the flexibility of the weapon and in some cases require settings and data to be loaded on the ground, but for something like SCALP a mission would be heavily pre planned anyway.
 
FighterJock said:
Gripen E should be relatively straghtforward to intergrate Storm Shadow/SCALP compared to the Su-24 Ainen, just like what we did to get the Storm Shadow intergrated to the Typhoon.
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You know if someone would pay for it then you could do it already until Gripen arrives
 
Burnham to hand long-range missile blueprints to Zelensky as he visits Kyiv

Crucially for the war effort, he will announce his government has agreed to allow defence company MBDA to declassify information on UK components for the long-range Scalp missile – the French equivalent of the UK's Storm Shadow.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyqypkrzq5o
 
Seeker components include limited run of lab grown crystals. Made in Taiwan.
UK labs struggling to meet standards and administrative procedures and stay viable. Such is the lack of financial support to domestic production.
Likely similar for France.
Who would jump through these hoops without financial loss?

UK content Likely BROACH and certain navigation elements.
 
zen said:
UK labs struggling to meet standards and administrative procedures and stay viable. Such is the lack of financial support to domestic production.
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That needs to change and they need to be given the needed funding for this.
 
question?:

license mean can unlocked 550km(300 miles+)? or stick to 150-160miles (under 300km<)? MCTR

and Ukraine part etc use French and British blueprint minus USA sat data (so could they if use japan super advanced SAT SAR data as replacement? as they supply Ukraine data

uk has two soon in service (No sure about French they have plan 2026-2030) also german has one sar

2027; 2x UK SAR - Oberon’s satellites (near advanced as Japanese as they has better resolution + 2 band x & l compared to Oberon’s satellites band x only)

+ 1x tyche sat (day only)

once they running mean no more rely or require usa permission or use usa data.
 
If Ukraine gets local production of the Storm Shadow going soon I wonder if they will also develop a ground-launched variant?
 
BonPlan2 said:
Interesting the range information : At the beginning the SCALP Naval missile was said to have "around 1000km" range. Now it is 1400km. Maybe an engine or fuel improvement.
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Pretty sure everything between 1.000 to 1.400km was stated forever and solely depended on the launch system
 
kqcke for you said:
Pretty sure everything between 1.000 to 1.400km was stated forever and solely depended on the launch system
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Depends on warhead, not launch system. The sub-launched variant just happens to have a 300kg warhead instead of a 500kg one. Or was it the other way round? Either way, it's 1400km with 300kg warhead, or 1000km with 500kg.
 
1,000km is the sub launched version range and 1,400km is Sylver cell ship launched version, both have a 300kg warhead. The missile itself is identical with no extra or enlarged booster for the underwater version (or rather the original kick booster is retained by the later ship launched version), but there is a protective torpedo casing for the sub launched variant "Dispositif de Changement de Milieu" or DCM. The missile itself weighs 1,400kg, the DCM another 600kg.

MBDA-MdCN-002[1].jpg

MBDA-MdCN-012[1].jpg
 
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If it's the same missile, why would range be reduced by 400km? This has been discussed here before, there is a link somewhere, stating that the shorter-ranged version has a 500kg warhead and the longer-ranged version has a 300kg warhead. Otherwise I can't see how simply launching it from slightly underwater would wipe 400km from the range, since the DCM is rejected after it reaches the surface.
 
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Forest Green said:
If it's the same missile, why would range be reduced by 400km? This has been discussed here before, there is a link somewhere. The shorter-ranged version has a 500kg warhead and the longer-ranged version has a 300kg warhead.
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As a reminder MdCN=NCM … also now offered in a ground launched version as LCM (land cruise missile) (MdCT in French?)

All versions of the MdCN (sub & surface-launched), as well as the MdCN Mk2 that will replace it, carry a 250 kg warhead.
This was confirmed again at eurosatory 2026
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/defe...le-mdcn-et-derniere-ligne-droite-pour-le-fman
Presented at Eurosatory, the MdCN Mk.2 takes up the shapes and dimensions of the current MdCN. Internally, however, the missile is very different. The obsolescences were indeed dealt with on the three main parts of the machine: the propulsion system at the rear, the military charge at the centre, and the navigation and attack system at the front. A hundred of these missiles have already been ordered by the DGA, with the Mk.2 to take the place of the current MdCN on MBDA's production lines in the coming years, for delivery to the National Navy in 2030.

Concretely, the missile should be able to carry further, and practice more complex evasive manoeuvres to circumvent opposing defences. On the DGA stand, we continue to display a range "over 1000 km" for this Mk.2, the same official range as the current MdCN. In fact, it is already likely that the MdCN will be around 1300 or 1400 km. The Mk.2 could therefore have an operational range probably close to 1700 or 1800 km.

The military charge of NCM/LCM Mk.2 retains the mass and format of that present in the basic MdCN, but "its lethality would be significantly increased, allowing it to treat a wider range of targets". As a reminder, where the Scalp/Storm Shadow carries a BROACH tandem load of more than 400 kg, that of the MDCN, similar in its operating principle, has been reduced to 250 kg. By using new explosives, for example, it would be possible to increase the destructive power of the missile without increasing the weight of its payload.
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One of the possible explanations i've read behind the difference in range between the sub-launched and the surface-launched versions is their flight profile.

The sub-launched version would fly at a very low altitude throughout the entire flight to avoid revealing the submarine's position, whereas the frigate-launched version could fly at a significantly higher altitude in the early phases… Thus burning much less fuel
 

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