Aérospatiale / MBDA EUROSAM Aster missile family

Aegrotare said:
That seems like a low number of intercepts to me, lets hope they painted the rest on the other side
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Given lack of known fixed wing interceptions before(this is a high profile event), even what's here smells...paint.

Overall samp/t is limited by aster supply. No way around.
 
IIRC Ukraine has 2 SAMP FUs. Only ABTs were downed by this FU, meaning if BMD is done at all, it's by a single FU.

Does anyone have good numbers on Aster production?
Googling gives me results on multiplication of past production figures but doesn't cite any concrete baseline.
 
Big_Zukini said:
IIRC Ukraine has 2 SAMP FUs. Only ABTs were downed by this FU, meaning if BMD is done at all, it's by a single FU.

Does anyone have good numbers on Aster production?
Googling gives me results on multiplication of past production figures but doesn't cite any concrete baseline.
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FU?
 
The CdG will be fitted with Aster 15EC after the 2027-28 overhaul
The combat system of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier is being upgraded to deploy the ASTER missile in its modernized “Enhanced Capability (EC)” version, pending the arrival of the next-generation aircraft carrier, whose construction is beginning and whose offensive power will be strengthened by a third catapult rail and a data-centric combat management system.
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https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/17/textes/l17b2630_projet-loi
The Aster 15EC is also included in the MLU of the 4 Horizon class destroyers of the French and Italian navies (2027-2030)
https://www.occar.int/our-work/programmes/horizon-mlufremm-multi-mission-frigates
 
I was reading some weird takes online on the cost of the SAMP/T NG system, so I’d like to point out that in the case of Denmark for example, all the contract notices are public, so anyone can look them up.

No Denmark is not paying 7-8 billion € to order 8 and even less 4 SAMP/T NG systems.
That’s their entire air defence procurement budget, which already includes :
These are complete systems with missiles and spares/training/maintenance packages.
Btw there’s also a good article from Hartpunkt covering these numbers.
https://www.hartpunkt.de/daenemark-...ng-der-luftverteidigung-mittlerer-reichweite/


Now as for the SAMP/T NG, Denamark has ordered 4 batteries (+4 options) for 1.5 billion € —> https://ted.europa.eu/en/notice/-/detail/269132-2026
Again, that also includes the missiles and the support package.


For comparison we can look at Italy. The SAMP/T NG program + Aster 30 B1NT comes to around €5.5 billion €, but that covers:
  • 5 modernized batteries for the Army (only the TELs and the reloaders are modernized, the rest is brand new)
  • 5 new batteries for the Air Force
  • In total, that’s 10 batteries: 60 TELs, 30 reloaders, 10 radars, 10 engagement modules, 10 direct support units etc.
  • ~700 missiles (mix of new missiles and upgrades i believe)
  • Integration of the CAMM-ER missile into SAMP/T NG (France pays for VL MICA integration)
  • Modernization of the Italian Navy's missiles, with Aster B1NT and Aster 15EC
  • investment in production capacity

    Source -> https://en.ilsole24ore.com/art/ital...-53-billion-for-new-generation-sampt-AIciUdUB

France is in roughly the same ballpark cost-wise.


Also Thales has recently stated that a SAMP/T NG battery with it's missiles and the support package costs around 500 million €.

Why Denmark appears to be paying less isn’t entirely clear, but they may simply be procuring a small initial batch of missiles and planning to order more later... Especially if they select Aster for their frigates.
 
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Danemark now has.
Pepin said:
Just noticed that since the war in Ukraine started, more than 1000 days ago, a grand total of 0 (that’s zero) Aster missiles have been ordered by Europeans countries.
I’m excluding the 3 existing users : Italy, France & United Kingdom.
Talk about a failure
Btw, Belgium seems more and more likely to order patriot instead of SAMP/T NG for commonality with Netherland
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The SAMP/T NG appears to be the front-runner in Switzerland, as Patriot deliveries have been delayed by 5+ years.

https://www.ft.com/content/730666c8-0821-4e7f-a928-74a3ff973492

Markus Mäder, state secretary for security, pointed to the French-Italian SAMP/T air and missile defence system as Europe’s main offer while Bern awaits US arms maker Raytheon to deliver its system, which was due in 2027 but has been pushed back to 2032 or later.

“We want to be interoperable with our environment, and that’s Europe,” he said in an FT interview. “We’re not saying we change from one horse to the other, but [if] one horse is not fast enough . . . let’s try [to] find a second horse.”

...

The Swiss government said last month it had received responses from France, Germany, Israel and South Korea as part of its search for a second long-range air and missile defence system.

...

Switzerland’s Patriot order — five air and missile defence units acquired under the Air2030 programme in 2022 — was originally valued at about SFr2.3bn ($2.9bn). The deliveries were planned for 2027 and 2028 but Bern now faces potential cost overruns and delays of up to five years or more.

The SAMP-T NG manufacturers — European missile champion MBDA and its partners, the radar makers France’s Thales and Italy’s Leonardo — are planning the first deliveries to France and Italy by the end of the year.
Denmark last year became the first country to sign a contract to buy the SAMP-T NG, with first deliveries expected in 2028.

While Switzerland remains outside both Nato and the EU, Mäder said Bern wanted to deepen defence co-operation and interoperability with neighbours, insisting the country considered itself “an integral part of European security”.
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MihoshiK said:
Dutch sources are hinting that our navy with the new Air Defense Frigates will be moving to an ESSM/Aster 30 mix. No more SM-family missiles.
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Makes sense to go for Aster since the Netherlands (TNO, Thales and Fokker) are also part of the Hydis/Aquila program led by MBDA with France and Italy.

Given the rapid technological advancements in weapons systems and the growing diversity of air threats, future LC frigates will need to be capable of countering multiple types of threats, such as advanced anti-ship missiles and cruise missiles capable of reaching high speeds. The Ministry of Defense therefore intends to equip these LC frigates with a layered air and missile defense system for short-, medium-, and long-range capabilities, including an endo-atmospheric (within the atmosphere) intercept capability against ballistic missiles. The “Maritime Air and Missile Defense Armament” project focuses primarily on defense against other air threats, and to a lesser extent on drones. These LC frigates must also be able to defend themselves against, for example, large numbers of drones (swarms) launched simultaneously. This is being taken into account in the design of the LC frigates.
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https://forcesoperations.com/eurosa...ales-pour-muscler-lalerte-avancee-europeenne/
https://www.thalesgroup.com/fr/catalogue-de-solutions/defense/aerienne/deepfinder

Thales is developping a family of radars operating in UHF band called Deepfinder.
3 versions are being worked on from the same UHF modules :
  • Strategic Deepfinder : a fixed version similar to SSPARS/BMEWS for early warning over 120º with a range of 5.000km
  • Tactical Deepfinder : a mobile/deployable version ( ~ 6m x 2.4m )
  • Space Deepfinder : ordered by france to replace the GRAVES radar, for space surveillance

Tactical Deepfinder is of particular interest here, because it should be integrated into SAMP/T NG systems.

It uses the same UHF modules, but packaged into a 20-foot container/ mounted on 8×8 vehicles. The system should be air transportable in A400M.
The target setup time around 30 minutes to preserve the tactical mobility of the SAMP/T NG.

The most interresting feature is that 3 identical radar panels can be aligned and electronically merged into one larger sensor
Thales presents this as a first in radar implementation.

Tactical Deepfinder : 22x4=88 modules (6mx2,4m)
image.png

The DRTLP demonstrator (same uhf modules) : 60x6=360 modules
image.png

Space Deepfinder (called Aurore in france)
image.png
 
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Both the Aster 15 and Aster 30 use launch boosters however I'm wondering if a short-range version of the Aster has been considered by not using a launch booster?
 
NMaude said:
Both the Aster 15 and Aster 30 use launch boosters however I'm wondering if a short-range version of the Aster has been considered by not using a launch booster?
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I think the Aster 30/15 dart only got a sustainer motor, probably not powerful enough to accelerate the missile from zero speed on its own. Even if the motor on the dart was changed i doubt it would have any benefits over the boosted Aster 15. Or VL Mica/CAMM for that matter.

Anyone knows if the booster on the Aster 30 got a "sustainer stage" also? The Aster 15 booster burns for about 2 seconds, and the missile got a max range of 30-40km, The Aster 30 booster burns for about 3,5 seconds and max range is claimed to ~120km. Seems unreasonable that an extra 1,5 seconds of boost extend the max range by 80-90km over the Aster 15.
 
IRT said:
Anyone knows if the booster on the Aster 30 got a "sustainer stage" also? The Aster 15 booster burns for about 2 seconds, and the missile got a max range of 30-40km, The Aster 30 booster burns for about 3,5 seconds and max range is claimed to ~120km. Seems unreasonable that an extra 1,5 seconds of boost extend the max range by 80-90km over the Aster 15.
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Updated missiles have the same range gap.
Aster 15 EC >60 km
Aster 30 B1NT >150 km
The dart is exactly the same between 15 and 30, so the sustainer is the same.

Aster 30 B1NT has been succesfully fired at max range late last year.
 
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IRT said:
I think the Aster 30/15 dart only got a sustainer motor, probably not powerful enough to accelerate the missile from zero speed on its own.
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If its' sustainer motor does have a boost-sustain burn-profile like the Mk-104 DTRM then it should be powerful enough to launch the Aster missile but it would have a dramatically reduced range.
 
Titus K said:
Updated missiles have the same range gap.
Aster 15 EC >60 km
Aster 30 B1NT >150 km
The dart is exactly the same between 15 and 30, so the sustainer is the same.

Aster 30 B1NT has been succesfully fired at more than max range late last year.
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I like the Aster missile. But how is it possible that a booster that burns for 3,5 seconds and send the missile away for maybe 3-4 km, and then the 110kg missile/dart carries enough fuel to fly another 145km and still have the energy to hit a somewhat manuvering target. Other missiles that have 150km range weighs 800-900kg like the SM2 and PAC2, the Aster 30 is only 450kg.
 
IRT said:
I like the Aster missile. But how is it possible that a booster that burns for 3,5 seconds and send the missile away for maybe 3-4 km, and then the 110kg missile/dart carries enough fuel to fly another 145km and still have the energy to hit a somewhat manuvering target. Other missiles that have 150km range weighs 800-900kg like the SM2 and PAC2, the Aster 30 is only 450kg.
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They are both single stage missiles and a PAC-3, also single stage, manages 105km at 300-320kg.
 
Forest Green said:
They are both single stage missiles and a PAC-3, also single stage, manages 105km at 300-320kg.
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Not the CRI right? I think more like 60-70 km.. and that motor still burns for like 20 seconds The MSE can do 120km but thats a dual pulse motor and an overall heavier missile than the CRI.
 
IRT said:
Not the CRI right? I think more like 60-70 km.. and that motor still burns for like 20 seconds The MSE can do 120km but thats a dual pulse motor and an overall heavier missile than the CRI.
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Yeah i mean MSE is bigger too
 
IRT said:
I like the Aster missile. But how is it possible that a booster that burns for 3,5 seconds and send the missile away for maybe 3-4 km, and then the 110kg missile/dart carries enough fuel to fly another 145km and still have the energy to hit a somewhat manuvering target. Other missiles that have 150km range weighs 800-900kg like the SM2 and PAC2, the Aster 30 is only 450kg.
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Full disclosure, i went and asked our Aster specialist ( —> https://x.com/letmepickthat )

That line of reasoning is a bit flawed on several levels.
  • It ignores the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, and more generally the advantages of multi-stage/boost-sustain architectures in terms of mass fraction and delivered delta-v.
  • It overlooks the fact that systems like the SM-2 or MIM-104 Patriot PAC-2 do not use a terminal DACS like the Aster 30 does, which fundamentally changes how maneuverability is achieved in the endgame. In Aster’s case, a lot of agility is not “carried energy” but active control.
  • SM-2 and Pac-2 also lack the option of optimising ignition timing and flight profile in the terminal stage. That’s essentially what dual-pulse concepts try to achieve, but Aster combines that with a lighter endgame vehicle due to booster separation, reducing both mass and drag.
  • The Aster’s dart is extremely small in diameter (~18 cm) and short (~2.6 m)…. this dramatically reduces drag compared to missiles like PAC-2 (41cm diameter and 5,3m long). The difference is not incremental, it’s closer to comparing a compact car to a bus in terms of aerodynamic drag.
  • Finally, the cited numbers (burn time, separation distance, etc.) are not really consistent with how these systems are documented in practice anyway.
You could also flip the logic: does the AIM-260 JATM use “magic” to outrange the AIM-54 Phoenix while being significantly lighter and smaller? Especially when it doesn’t benefit, unlike Aster, from the mass/drag savings of a separated booster architecture.

And similarly, how does the PAC-3 MSE achieve its performance envelope despite being a much smaller, single-stage interceptor compared to something like Aster 30?

Bonus question: how does David’s Sling manage to reach even longer ranges than the Aster 30 Block 1NT, even though both missiles have exactly the same mass at launch ?
 
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IRT said:
I like the Aster missile. But how is it possible that a booster that burns for 3,5 seconds and send the missile away for maybe 3-4 km, and then the 110kg missile/dart carries enough fuel to fly another 145km and still have the energy to hit a somewhat manuvering target. Other missiles that have 150km range weighs 800-900kg like the SM2 and PAC2, the Aster 30 is only 450kg.
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A) The booster sends the missile an awful lot longer than "3-4 km's", the kinetic energy provided by the booster is the difference between having a 30 km range (Aster 15) or a 100+ km range (Aster 30)

B) PAC-3 MSE weights 320 kg's, Rafael Stunner weights around 400 kg's - If you build a "hitile" then you can have a much smaller warhead

C) PIF-PAF. ASTER final engagement is heavily dependent on PIF PAF, not just on fins and kinetic energy gained from the rocket engine launch

ps - Titus answer right above this one kills/nails it much better than mine

Cheers
 
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BonPlan2 said:
and what about S400 ???
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Gathering dust under lock and key. There hasn't been anything officially outlined as of yet to what will be done with the S400, but I'm sure there will be some progress into the removal aligning with US administration requirements

Big_Zukini said:
What about the Siper?
These can coexist for a while. Just assign different targets or sectors between these.
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Siper still be at the forefront of Turkey's air defence developments, but has a long way to go before it receives anti-ballistic missile deterrence, current timeframe outlined for that capability was said to be around mid-2030s. Siper does have a decent radar set with ALP 300-G & AKREP 1000-G , perhaps integration of ASTER into that system could be an option ?
 
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news...e-production-and-industrial-investment-across

4. SAMP/T Air Defence system: Thales scaling up its share of production five-fold ​


As part of the SAMP/T NG NATO mission proven air defence system, for which Thales supplies key components, the Group is targeting a two-fold increase in production, in order to meet accelerating demand from European armed forces. The French variant of the system includes a Thales Ground Fire radar, which offers unmatched performance: a range of up to 400 km and panoramic coverage at 360° and 90° elevation. Thales also acts as the integrator of the fire control system (the command, control and fire control system: the ME-NG – Next Generation Engagement Module), developed in partnership with MBDA. SAMP/T NG is at the core of SkyDefender, the multi-layer, multi-domain Integrated Air and Missile Defence system launched by Thales this year. Built on an open, modular architecture, SkyDefender integrates easily with existing defences and can be further developed as threats evolve.
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IRT said:
I like the Aster missile. But how is it possible that a booster that burns for 3,5 seconds and send the missile away for maybe 3-4 km, and then the 110kg missile/dart carries enough fuel to fly another 145km and still have the energy to hit a somewhat manuvering target. Other missiles that have 150km range weighs 800-900kg like the SM2 and PAC2, the Aster 30 is only 450kg.
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Why Ariane or Space X or Apollo rockets are made of several stages ? You have the answer.
 

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