Sukhoi T-75 LTS (CheckMate)

[Ainen]

The Su-75 and Su-57 don't really compete for the same operational niche I'd say. Especially as the Su-75 can be a cheaper complement and used for missions that don't require the Su-57s massive tandem bay and associated volume of ordnance.

Su-75 has exact same bay though. Just one, not two, so it carries less heavy ordnance.

 

[ComradeVortex]

Who thinks that the country of interest will be India?

Algeria, Vietnam, Belarus, and perhaps the DPRK as well. Maybe some Central Asian country like Kazakhstan if we're really optimistic?

some countries in SE asia like indonesia or malaysia.

Doubt it. Both countries have shown much greater interest in the Su-57. Also don't see why go for the Su-75 when the KF-21 exists. Different, I know, but for the operational requirements of those two countries, I can see the Korean fighter much more likely due to political and financing reasons, in addition to regional commonality given Indonesia and maybe Philippines.

 

[EmoBirb]

Su-75 has exact same bay though. Just one, not two, so it carries less heavy ordnance.

Yes, just one, half the capacity of the Su-57. Thus it's a cheaper and lighter aircraft which also has lesser flight performance than the Su-57. The Su-75 offers a low end stealth fighter to a customer which operates the Su-57 as a high capability "do-it-all" aircraft. Arguably though the Su-75 might have better stealth characteristics, so it may be preferred for high precision, close in, strikes with guided munitions. Like the F-35.

 

[Ainen]

Arguably though the Su-75 might have better stealth characteristics

It's literally written in patent.
It also comes with internal targeting pod.

Yes, just one, half the capacity of the Su-57.

Still, it means there's only quantitive difference; both aircraft in principle deliver this capability.
More so since there's also a 2-bay S-70.
Even more so as T-75 is specifically a supercruiser with significant claimed range; though for that part we shall better wait when/if it ever flies.

The unique aspect of Su-57 right now is sensor/ew/defense suit. No T-75 materials to date claimed anything similar.
T-75 is just a normal fighter bomber everyone expects in this generation. Without reinventing the wheel.

 

[Null]

The Su-75 production is going to be a super far date that is maybe in the mid 2030s for the following 2 reasons.

Some of the following aircraft below also have undergone modernization in radars and EW.
1)priorities of what gets produced.
-100-120 Su-35s ongoing production
-100-110 Su-34s ongoing production.
-130-140 Su-30s
-110-115 Su-27s
-100-130 Mig-31s
-4 Su-70 prototypes ongoing project.
-4 A-50s ongoing production.
-48 Su-57s (KnAAZ handed over four Su-57 aircraft to the Russian Aerospace Forces in 2020-2021, and six more in 2022 (two in May and four in December ), in 2023 - 11 Su-57 aircraft (in two batches in September and December ), and in 2024 - 13 aircraft (in three batches - in September , November and December, 14 units delivered in 2025 ). ongoing production.

The 76 Su-57s in 2028 contract still remains. However, this year they expect the 2nd stage engines to arrive in the coming years, no idea if those engines will be for the separate order or the older order of replacing the engines on the existing 76 Su-57s. Then there is the flat nozzle design which I wonder if they will take account into the older Su-57s or a separate contract order for Su-57s. But the introduction of the 2 pilot cockpit definitely guarantees more orders for Su-57s coming up soon.

2) Technology progression that the UAV then pilot version of Su-75 would be more necessary.

They are currently making alot of efforts to combine an air force with aircrafts and UAVs in completing assigned mission objectives. Drones have many uses, some can use air to air missiles, some can carry air to ground bombs/missiles, some can serve as decoys, some may even relay passive radar tracking to aircrafts by functioning as receivers.

Satellites to control UAVs then just aircraft commands from pilots.


A.I. self-decisions getting raised to the next level.



Progress still being made for lithography and production.
350nm mastered, now its 130nm for end of year goal, then more set times dates for further progression in node downsizing.

 

[Ainen]

The Su-75 production is going to be a super far date that is maybe in the mid 2030s for the following 2 reasons.

Su-57 took 9 years from flight to production, and more like 15 to IOC (though it entered combat earlier), and that's for a fully funded program (though admittedly with a major engineering delay).
2027+9=2036, for 15 it's 2042.

 

[snne]

@Ainen @EmoBirb As a 3rd-party observer to your exchange regarding the utility of the operating the Su-75 compared to the -57, I can say that both of you are mostly right in your analyses; you're just approaching the topic from different POVs.

Su-57 took 9 years from flight to production, and more like 15 to IOC (though it entered combat earlier), and that's for a fully funded program (though admittedly with a major engineering delay).
2027+9=2036, for 15 it's 2042.

To be fair, that was their first clean-sheet fighter design in a very long time, and their first LO one at that (it also suffered from quite a bit of bad luck during testing). In fact, not just the low-observable airframe, but nearly every major subsystem from the sensors-avionics to the engine and even the actuators, had to be developed from scratch rather than based on mature systems.

By now, Sukhoi has finally mastered LO design development with the Felon, as well as with the Okhotnik and the ongoing Checkmate. They’re yet to reveal a true masterpiece like a tailless 6th generation fighter, but it’s not an exaggeration to say they’ve learned it.

Incidentally, Checkmate also happens to inherit most of its subsystems (whether avionics, sensors, engine, or even its main weapons bay) from the Felon, all of which were painstakingly developed over the better part of a decade. I'd personally expect LRIP to commence sometime around 2031, assuming no major setbacks along the way, such as a major crash.

 

[Ainen]

To be fair, that was their first clean-sheet fighter design in a very long time, and their first LO one at that (it also suffered from quite a bit of bad luck during testing). In fact, not just the low-observable airframe, but nearly every major subsystem from the sensors-avionics to the engine and even the actuators, had to be developed from scratch rather than based on mature systems.

S-70 also took at least 7 years (2019-2026), and while Russia is more secretive now, I don't think it will be fully operational this year...
Plus, bad luck in development happens all the time, unless design is highly conservative (which T-75 is not); it's a rare exception to not run into some.
J-20 apparently had some, so did F-35 (almost the same, actually, alcoa alloy story comes to mind).

 

[AGS-1787]

Well the su-57 shares a lot with the su-75, they don’t have to develop the front part of the fuselage, no need to design cockpit, sensors might be the same, arguably the radar could be a downgraded version of the su-57’s, it could use the same engine? Same flight control actuators, same wing except for ailerons, same ejection seat, central weapons bay might be the same as the su-57, same internal and external weapon hard points, same vertical tails. On the other hand, the aerodynamics are very different so the flight control programming will have to be different so I’m not sure they will build the su-75 faster than the su-57 after all. One also has to take into account sanctions and if the Russian economy will be able to survive their current war. One thing that I’m wondering is if using the su-57 wing was a good idea after all? I was under the impression aircraft designers first design the wing then they do the rest of the airplane. Is the wing design ideal for a single engine medium/light fighter? Will the current wing design hinder performance by not being 100% optimized or a clean sheet design?

 

[Ainen]

One thing that I’m wondering is if using the su-57 wing was a good idea after all? I was under the impression aircraft designers first design the wing then they do the rest of the airplane. Is the wing design ideal for a single engine medium/light fighter? Will the current wing design hinder performance by not being 100% optimized or a clean sheet design?

Well, per the Sukhoi book, it's evident they're running into some trouble making it work; the 2021 planform is the only one that worked, and they spent several years refining it further.

One also has to take into account sanctions and if the Russian economy will be able to survive their current war.

In ironic twist, it will be interesting if Su-75, at some point, will displace Su-57 from production rather than just complement it.
It's indeed a cheaper aircraft, with better stand-in/offensive potential (signature, EOTS).

 

[Avimimus]

In ironic twist, it will be interesting if Su-75, at some point, will displace Su-57 from production rather than just complement it.
It's indeed a cheaper aircraft, with better stand-in/offensive potential (signature, EOTS).

I do suspect that the old "PVO" roles will continue to necessitate the range and twin-engined capabilities of the Su-57... so it will have a role in replacing the Su-35 and Mig-31 in many of their traditional roles. As for the VVS roles such that aircraft like the Mig-23 used to fulfill... there the Su-75 is more of a threat, yes.

 

[LMFS]

These topics have already been explained by Sukhoi. Su-57, LTS and Okhotnik complement each other and are their proposal of an ideal (economically speaking) future force structure for the VKS. The queen, the horse and the pawn.

 

[Geo]

These topics have already been explained by Sukhoi. Su-57, LTS and Okhotnik complement each other and are their proposal of an ideal (economically speaking) future force structure for the VKS. The queen, the horse and the pawn.

Yes.
"Extensive work is underway to further improve the Su-57's capabilities, infuse it with new capabilities, and integrate new weapons systems. These solutions will soon enable a confident step toward developing a next-generation combat system, with the Su-57 potentially becoming its central component."
© Sukhoi Design Bureau - 85th anniversary

 

[Ainen]

These topics have already been explained by Sukhoi. Su-57, LTS and Okhotnik complement each other and are their proposal of an ideal (economically speaking) future force structure for the VKS. The queen, the horse and the pawn.

Of course Sukhoi wants everyone to buy their full ecosystem and theirs only. They're a manufacturer.

But role of su-57 is such that up to debate you really need more than a certain number of them. For most tasks, you don't need 5 radars. And for most tasks where you need radars, you don't bring it on a fighter, rather, you want a larger, better radar.

 

[flateric]

Of course Sukhoi wants everyone to buy their full ecosystem and theirs only.

remember that new logo on -57D tail?

 

[Scott Kenny]

These topics have already been explained by Sukhoi. Su-57, LTS and Okhotnik complement each other and are their proposal of an ideal (economically speaking) future force structure for the VKS. The queen, the horse and the pawn.

With MiG-41 being Rook and Bishop. Your choice as to which role is which piece, Interceptor or Kinzhal-thrower.

 

[Squirrel]

priorities of what gets produced.
-100-120 Su-35s ongoing production
-100-110 Su-34s ongoing production.
-130-140 Su-30s
-110-115 Su-27s
-100-130 Mig-31s
-4 Su-70 prototypes ongoing project.
-4 A-50s ongoing production.
-48 Su-57s

It's not the right topic but ...

If I may friend, about 150 Su-35S were produced so far, about 200 Su-34/NVO so far, ≈ 140 Su-30SM/SM2 ( for the VKS/MA VMF),only 24 Su-27SM3 ( for the VKS only from the ex-Su-27SK unfinished airframes), about 150 MiG-31BM ( overhauled and modernised aircraft of the versions B,BS and the basic version) ,than about 30 MiG-31K modernised from the version DZ only , 8 A-50U so far overhauled and modernised from the old serial A-50 (2 were shot down,six are operational ,first of them ''47 red'' was overhauled and delivered to the VKS several days ago) and more than 50 Su-57 so far.

 

[LMFS]

Of course Sukhoi wants everyone to buy their full ecosystem and theirs only. They're a manufacturer.

For the VKS there is no other realistic proposal, and the endorsement of the triad by the government is more than obvious I think. Plus Sukhoi has been right on the money for the last decades, leading the development of tactical aviation and proving extremely competent and innovative. Why would MoD not allow them to show what they can do?

With MiG-41 being Rook and Bishop. Your choice as to which role is which piece, Interceptor or Kinzhal-thrower.

Strelets never mentioned that one

 

[Ainen]

For the VKS there is no other realistic proposal, and the endorsement of the triad by the government is more than obvious I think. Plus Sukhoi has been right on the money for the last decades, leading the development of tactical aviation and proving extremely competent and innovative. Why would MoD not allow them to show what they can do?

Well, I'm very much looking forward to VKS embracing this aircraft, but it hasn't happened to date.
As such, development speed and ambitions are unavoidably constrained.

 

[FighterJock]

Same here Ainen, I do wish that the VKS would just bite the bullet and buy the Su-75 and have a new fifth generation high/low mix just like the Su-27/MiG-29 pair.

 

[Event_Horizon]

Same here Ainen, I do wish that the VKS would just bite the bullet and buy the Su-75 and have a new fifth generation high/low mix just like the Su-27/MiG-29 pair.

I don't think that the МиГ-29 / Су-27 were initially designed as part of a high/low mix. Rather than that they were intended for different roles in different services. The Су-27 was designed for the needs of the ПВО (Soviet Air Defense) which at the time was a separate service from the ВВС (Soviet Air Forces) and was tasked with defending the Soviet Union from all kinds of aerial threats, but primarily long range bombers and cruise missiles as well as air policing. The МиГ-29 was designed for the needs of the ВВС (Soviet Air Force) which needed a capable front line fighter for a potential war in Europe. This is also reflected in their deployments - the МиГ-29 was deployed heavily abroad and in Soviet puppet states, while the Су-27 was deployed mostly domestically.

If we're looking for a high/low mix, I would say in the ПВО that would be the МиГ-31/Су-27 who complemented each other with the МиГ-31 having much higher capabilities.

 

[Squirrel]

I don't think that the МиГ-29 / Су-27 were initially designed as part of a high/low mix. Rather than that they were intended for different roles in different services. The Су-27 was designed for the needs of the ПВО (Soviet Air Defense) which at the time was a separate service from the ВВС (Soviet Air Forces) and was tasked with defending the Soviet Union from all kinds of aerial threats, but primarily long range bombers and cruise missiles as well as air policing. The МиГ-29 was designed for the needs of the ВВС (Soviet Air Force) which needed a capable front line fighter for a potential war in Europe. This is also reflected in their deployments - the МиГ-29 was deployed heavily abroad and in Soviet puppet states, while the Су-27 was deployed mostly domestically.

Hm ,Su-27P/UBP were part of the Voyska PVO but the Su-27S/UB were part of the VVS-FA just as the MiG-29( 9.12/9.13). Of course ,Su-27S was heavy frontline/tactical fighter and MiG-29 was lighter one.If I remember well, in the Europian part of the USSR ,they was 227 Su-27P/UBP and 138 Su-27S/UB by the end of the 1990.

Example, in the 4 VA VVS-FA were two regiments with the Su-27S/UB stationed in Poland ( 159 GvIAP in Stargard/Klucewo and 582 IAP in Choyna).Main task for those Su-27S/UB was not only air defence but the escorting of the Su-24M/M2 (MR/MP) on combat missions.

 

[LMFS]

Well, I'm very much looking forward to VKS embracing this aircraft, but it hasn't happened to date.
As such, development speed and ambitions are unavoidably constrained.

As in any program proposed out of the manufacturers' own initiative, VKS can play 'diva' and allow Sukhoi to refine the product and really convince them, getting more for less and not being responsible for the development and its eventual problems (i.e. paradigm changes due to the rise of UAV warfare, just to name one major disruptive topic). BUT:
- This is basically what already happened with the Su-35, before becoming the mainstay of the VKS
- Sukhoi means UAC, means Rostec, means the government, with endorsement from the government and funding from Industry Ministery too. Assuming that there is no fundamental alignment with MoD is a bit naive I think

 

[Ainen]

- This is basically what already happened with the Su-35, before becoming the mainstay of the VKS

Su-35 could be largely financed like a private endeavor to the final product. It was a cheap development under conditions, where sukhoi had plenty of money and a firm foreign customer.

T-75 is a gamble - it's a fully new aircraft, it can't be financed by Sukhoi even to the prototype stage(Minpromtorg eventually did, but with a rather thin and vulnerable stream of money, barely sufficient for 1+1 prototypes). There is no firm customer at all, even a domestic one (which pays to a break even, eventually, if you're lucky). Best Sukhoi has is Belarus interest, but Belarus can't finance something at this scale, and it pays internal price anyway.

As in any program proposed out of the manufacturers' own initiative, VKS can play 'diva' and allow Sukhoi to refine the product and really convince them, getting more for less and not being responsible for the development and its eventual problems (i.e. paradigm changes due to the rise of UAV warfare, just to name one major disruptive topic).

Imho VKS is that diva that first spends her own money on su-34/su-27sm, and then looks for suitors to bail her out.
But it requires wealthy suitors, who are still alive. For example, Russia has basically an ideal modern drone interceptor in form of mig-35(the only one which does all out of the box, and is APKWS(S-8L)-ready).
But, VKS chan successfully dumped this suitor back in the late 2010s, and it isn't inconsequential.

 

[paralay]

Total combat effectiveness:
The Su-27 is superior to the MiG-29 by 7.1%
The Su-35S is superior to the MiG-35 by 20%
The Su-57 is superior to the Su-75 by 20%

 

[lmaoxd]

Total combat effectiveness:
The Su-27 is superior to the MiG-29 by 7.1%
The Su-35S is superior to the MiG-35 by 20%
The Su-57 is superior to the Su-75 by 20%

and How did you arrive at these numbers?

 

[paralay]

line 259

 

[Deino]

line 259

The point is - and I'm pretty sure several here have the same question - how do you calculate a "combat effectiveness" based on purely speculative data and why comparing thsi to the Su-24?
So a speculative combat effectiveness for the J-20 in comparison to the Su-24 is useless ...

 

[lmaoxd]

The point is - and I'm pretty sure several here have the same question - how do you calculate a "combat effectiveness" based on purely speculative data and why comparing thsi to the Su-24?
So a speculative combat effectiveness for the J-20 in comparison to the Su-24 is useless ...

even then why are we comparing them in a 1v1 config? They're never going to be used that way anyway.

 

[paralay]

I've been criticized for this approach to comparison for twenty years, but no one has come up with a better solution
I've come across several comparisons, such as those from the MiG company, and the results are close to mine

 

[Avimimus]

The point is - and I'm pretty sure several here have the same question - how do you calculate a "combat effectiveness" based on purely speculative data and why comparing thsi to the Su-24?
So a speculative combat effectiveness for the J-20 in comparison to the Su-24 is useless ...

I think the deeper issue is taking all of the metrics for an aircraft and reducing it to a single number - without considering its tactical use and role etc.

If one missile with a high PK better than three missiles with a slightly lower PK? What if they have better jam resistance? What is more important - better sensors or better kinetics? A lot of this is situational, related to tactics and employment... and a design with worse metrics in some areas can end up being decidedly superior if employed well.

Reducing it all to a single number is impossible.

 

[Avimimus]

I've been criticized for this approach to comparison for twenty years, but no one has come up with a better solution
I've come across several comparisons, such as those from the MiG company, and the results are close to mine

I suspect that, at the very least, breaking it down into different numbers for different roles would make more sense, no? A single number just can't work reliably. It might be useful for marketing, but it doesn't tell us about real world performance.

 

[Null]

I see the Mig-35 argument still keeps getting pushed here and elsewhere but Mikoyan is basically dead. Mig-35 flew 9+years ago and no significant order for production has been made. Either the Russian air force just doesn't want single stage engines, or they prefer single stage engines that need stealth as a cheap solution, its either one or the other on this choice.

 

[GTX]

I've been criticized for this approach to comparison for twenty years, but no one has come up with a better solution
I've come across several comparisons, such as those from the MiG company, and the results are close to mine

That’s not answering the question

 

[Ainen]

I see the Mig-35 argument still keeps getting pushed here and elsewhere but Mikoyan is basically dead. Mig-35 flew 9+years ago and no significant order for production has been made.

To be fair, the only "true" mig-35 is bn747 and it's a 2020s aircraft.
Prospects are indeed grim after VKS effectively ghosted them with the promised 37 a/c order.
Back then it was the only fully multirole aircraft available to Russia (now you can order Su-57 as well, for x4 the price), and given later events, now that decision looks quite controversial.

 

[LMFS]

Su-35 could be largely financed like a private endeavor to the final product. It was a cheap development under conditions, where sukhoi had plenty of money and a firm foreign customer.

T-75 is a gamble - it's a fully new aircraft, it can't be financed by Sukhoi even to the prototype stage(Minpromtorg eventually did, but with a rather thin and vulnerable stream of money, barely sufficient for 1+1 prototypes). There is no firm customer at all, even a domestic one (which pays to a break even, eventually, if you're lucky). Best Sukhoi has is Belarus interest, but Belarus can't finance something at this scale, and it pays internal price anyway.

I see a lot of statements there that I am not sure I can agree with. Su-35 was a no-brainer then, the same LTS is now. Best ROI in the industry through genius use of synergies. IMHO it would be a crime to waste this opportunity.

Imho VKS is that diva that first spends her own money on su-34/su-27sm, and then looks for suitors to bail her out.
But it requires wealthy suitors, who are still alive. For example, Russia has basically an ideal modern drone interceptor in form of mig-35(the only one which does all out of the box, and is APKWS(S-8L)-ready).
But, VKS chan successfully dumped this suitor back in the late 2010s, and it isn't inconsequential.

I think VKS is more than capable of properly defining what force composition they need, and Su-34 for instance are performing just fantastic. MiG-35 as drone hunter is simply not required (the problem demands other approaches in order to reach a favorable economical ratio per kill) and would create great operational complications. It is clear the military is not impressed with what they see from MiG in that regard.

 

[Austin]

Which aircraft will Su-75 replace in Russian Airforce eventually ?

 

[trose213]

Which aircraft will Su-75 replace in Russian Airforce eventually ?

Nothing, because it'll never fly.

 

[NovaGA]

Which aircraft will Su-75 replace in Russian Airforce eventually ?

Replacing is a wrong word here. It will substitute for MiG-27K and Su-17M, which Russia lacks because of not-so-good decisions in 1990-ies. I want to believe it will also replace MiG-29SMT or M, but so far kinematic characteristics of the airframe leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Null]

Nothing, because it'll never fly.

2030-2040?