But inevitably our enemies would respond by building more missiles, leaving us no safer than we were before.
Less money for conventional warfare on their part and the system seems built to deal with a large number. Possibly 600-1200 ICBMs/SLBMs by SBI means alone by a rough calc.

And the enemies are building more missiles anyway.
 
Less money for conventional warfare on their part
Which makes it more likely that if wars start, nuclear escalation will follow. Wars are fought with the weapons available.
A way out - or a logical consequence whether we want it or not - might be raising global defence spending. An arms race. How would that end?
 
Last edited:
Okay, with the help of DeepSeek and ChatGPT, I pondered a bit about surface-orbit-surface laser. I.e. powerful ground laser, bouncing its beam from orbital mirror to hit a target on surface:

I mean they did do relay mirror studies for SDI

GPT image 2 seems superfluous for this
1778749387751.png 1778749409415.png
 
Less money for conventional warfare on their part and the system seems built to deal with a large number. Possibly 600-1200 ICBMs/SLBMs by SBI means alone by a rough calc.

And the enemies are building more missiles anyway.
It also means less money for conventional warfare on our part.

And the problem is those missiles (rather drones) are far cheaper than the interceptors we'd be using to stop them. Also, if they were launched from submarines, they'd be able to bypass 3 of the 4 defense layers in the CBO concept system

It's the cost-exchange ratio and it has been the stumbling block of all ABMs for 60 years
 
It goes back to Stanley Baldwin (he was right about this, if not about other things)... instead of defending a boundary along a surface (as in land/naval surface warfare) you have to defend a volume.

Because the aggressor knows what it is doing but the defender does not, the aggressor always has the initiative.

This means that the defender has to have more maneuvering capability, which means a more capable platform (and often more numerous in order to be in a position to intercept).

Back when four engine bombers were intercepted by single engine fighters it was theoretically possible to have more defenders in more locations for the same cost... but now that costs of attack platforms cost the same price or less than the interceptors...
 
Which makes it more likely that if wars start, nuclear escalation will follow. Wars are fought with the weapons available.
A way out - or a logical consequence whether we want it or not - might be raising global defence spending. An arms race. How would that end?
Or it could be that the aforementioned Agents of Aggro reduce their aggro due to insufficent funds for said aggro.
 
It also means less money for conventional warfare on our part.
Not if spending is at 4-5% of GDP instead of 2-3%. Also means conventional warfare is less likely if enemies have less to spend on it.
And the problem is those missiles (rather drones) are far cheaper than the interceptors we'd be using to stop them. Also, if they were launched from submarines, they'd be able to bypass 3 of the 4 defense layers in the CBO concept system
Your maths is way out. KKVs on satellites put into space using RLVs are several orders of magnitude cheaper than ICBMs. I mean nuclear MIRVs are like $100m each, so a missile will 10 is ludicrously expensive before you even factor in the huge missile.
It's the cost-exchange ratio and it has been the stumbling block of all ABMs for 60 years
Nah, it was the technology ratio. ICBMs are just way simpler than the interceptors designed to stop them. Even 50 years ago it required a nuclear warhead to stop a nuclear warhead and that was at like 20-30km range. 20 years ago it cost ~$30k/kg to orbit (and twice than for the Space Shuttle), now it's like $500/kg with Falcon 9 (internal costs not customer prices).
 
Which makes it more likely that if wars start, nuclear escalation will follow. Wars are fought with the weapons available.
A way out - or a logical consequence whether we want it or not - might be raising global defence spending. An arms race. How would that end?
Feels to me (born in 1961) like the Cold War never really ended.
 
Last edited:
Less money for conventional warfare on their part and the system seems built to deal with a large number. Possibly 600-1200 ICBMs/SLBMs by SBI means alone by a rough calc.

And the enemies are building more missiles anyway.
I distinctly remember footage of anti-war protests in England...protesting against the fighters used by the Few.

I can't locate it---but I remember it was on the Discovery Channel a couple of decades back or so.

The space-based lasers could aid beam propulsion---so there is a scientific use for that that planes just don't have.
 
Inconsistent with what I replied to earlier.
Wars are less likely to start if the Agents of Aggro have less money for aggro and it would be a real gamble to start a nuclear war when the result might just be that only their country gets obliterated. This is even more the case for smaller adversaries with less nukes and it may lead to other small adversaries not even bothering with nuclear programs when they know they have no chance of getting anything through with small numbers.

Also, as I mentioned, adversaries are building more nukes anyway so the options are building more nukes and/or building a defeat system. It would be expensive for the US to match Russia and China and DPRK on nuke numbers given warhead costs, so this system may well be more frugal.
 
Last edited:
The numbers game doesn't look good, according to the latest Iran war reports the US (and allies) blew threw 50% of its weapons offensive and defensive, while Iran still has 70% of theirs left. And Iran spends far less that the US, without counting everyone else involved. Offense is always cheaper.
 
This is even more the case for smaller adversaries with less nukes
Defence just against smaller adversaries does not appear to be what Golden Dome is projected to deal with.
Golden Dome sized for defence against PRC's and Russia's missiles will be expensive. More expensive still when missile numbers are increased in reaction to Golden Dome's construction.
The history of the old ABM treaty bears looking into.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty
 
The numbers game doesn't look good, according to the latest Iran war reports the US (and allies) blew threw 50% of its weapons offensive and defensive, while Iran still has 70% of theirs left. And Iran spends far less that the US, without counting everyone else involved. Offense is always cheaper.
The % changes at every telling of the story. First it was 30%, now it's 50%.

Actual numbers:
View: https://x.com/johnmdonnelly/status/2046677772060197189?s=20


What did that 30% of Iran's munitions hit relative to what the US ones hit, i.e. pretty much everything? What was the resulting exchange ratio in enemies killed and assets destroyed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Iran_war

CENTCOM Commander Dismisses Reports That Iran Retains Most Of Its Missile And Drone Arsenal (Updated)​

https://www.twz.com/news-features/c...retains-most-of-its-missile-and-drone-arsenal

Defence just against smaller adversaries does not appear to be what Golden Dome is projected to deal with.
Golden Dome sized for defence against PRC's and Russia's missiles will be expensive. More expensive still when missile numbers are increased in reaction to Golden Dome's construction.
The history of the old ABM treaty bears looking into.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty
If smaller adversaries use nuclear weapons, that's absolutely what it will be used for. As such it is a deterrent in many ways.

Looking at numbers so far:

7,800 satellites with 10 interceptors/KKVs each - that's a heck of a lot of missiles destroyed even allowing for a 95% (adsentee+redundacy+miss) quantity. 3,900 to be precise.

180 NGIs. If they are 12 MOKVs each, that's a further 2,160.
 
Last edited:
If smaller adversaries use nuclear weapons, that's absolutely what it will be used for
That is not what will drive the cost of Golden Dome, because GD is expressly sized to deal with PRC's and Russia's missiles. That GD size will provoke a reaction from both countries, with particularly the PRC's industrial and economic power easily sufficient to sustain such an effort.
That, in turn, will drive increased US spending on GD.
But I feel I am repeating myself.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/golden-dome-for-america.46088/post-908596
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/golden-dome-for-america.46088/post-908880
An arms race. How will that end?
Then there's the long term prospect of former allies turning first to neutral actors, then to actual new rivals after being pissed off left, right and centre with the US left standing alone, needing even more effort on GD.
 
Last edited:
That is not what will drive the cost of Golden Dome, because GD is expressly sized to deal with PRC's and Russia's missiles. That GD size will provoke a reaction from both countries, with particularly the PRC's industrial and economic power easily sufficient to sustain such an effort.
That, in turn, will drive increased US spending on GD.
But I feel I am repeating myself.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/golden-dome-for-america.46088/post-908596
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/golden-dome-for-america.46088/post-908880
An arms race. How will that end?
Then there's the long term prospect of former allies turning first to neutral actors, then to actual new rivals after being pissed off left, right and centre with the US left standing alone, needing even more effort on GD.
I don't disagree with the purpose of Golden Dome but go back and read my original point.
This is even more the case for smaller adversaries with less nukes and it may lead to other small adversaries not even bothering with nuclear programs when they know they have no chance of getting anything through with small numbers.

Golden Dome will evolve over time, SBIs using KKVs first and then lasers and/or GBI lasers with spacve mirrors.

By China increasing nuclear warheads and refusing to join START protocols and with Russia pulling out and DPRK building up, an arms race was already started. It's not like Golden Dome started it. Golden Dome is the response not the trigger.

Don't see how GD would alienate allies. You'll have to explain that one.
 
go back and read my original point
Nuclear arms are a very real option for smaller powers to discourage superpowers from waging war against them.
I doubt even full-fat GD will discourage smaller powers from deploying nuclear arms.
It will encourage any superpower to respond in kind.
 
I don't disagree with the purpose of Golden Dome but go back and read my original point.


Golden Dome will evolve over time, SBIs using KKVs first and then lasers and/or GBI lasers with spacve mirrors.

By China increasing nuclear warheads and refusing to join START protocols and with Russia pulling out and DPRK building up, an arms race was already started. It's not like Golden Dome started it. Golden Dome is the response not the trigger.

Don't see how GD would alienate allies. You'll have to explain that one.
GD didn't start it, pulling out of ABM did... Note that Russia and China assumed the US would go with a GD program back when ABM died and began planning against it since then. So they already have a hug head start on defeating GD. We are going about this all ass backwards.
 
What I'm getting from this is what I've been saying all along: we need lasers. They're cheap and have an unlimited magazine as long as there's electricity. We just need to work out the problem of thermal bloom (which AI is in principle capable of doing)
 
Less money for conventional warfare on their part and the system seems built to deal with a large number. Possibly 600-1200 ICBMs/SLBMs by SBI means alone by a rough calc.

And the enemies are building more missiles anyway.
It's not built to deal with a large number.

You can saturate every layer of the system by simply launching >18 R-36 ICBMs in a single salvo.

Let's say you want to conduct a nuclear strike on the US, and that your goal is to deliver 100 warheads.

To achieve this, you simply need to fire 28 R-36 ICBMs in a single salvo.

10 of these ICBMs are intercepted and destroyed by the space based boost phase interceptor layer, which is fully saturated by the attack. The other 18 ICBMs slip through the ensuing coverage hole.

The 18 remaining ICBMs are now approaching the midcourse phase. Each ICBM ejects 10 RVs and 40 decoys. Each ICBM emits a threat cloud of 50 objects. Across all 18 ICBMs, a combined total of 900 objects are now on ballistic trajectories towards CONUS targets.

Because the US foolishly economized on the cost of the LRDR by swapping out the originally planned X band radar with an inferior (but much cheaper) S band radar, the GBI/NGI system is completely incapable of performing high-fidelity decoy discrimination. The S band radar system is sophisticated enough to detect and track each of the 900 incoming objects, but it is utterly blind to the fine details of each incoming object. All 900 tracked threats appear identically hazardous to the LRDR radars. Therefore, all 900 must be intercepted.

There are three GBI/NGI sites in the plan. Two host 60 NGI interceptors. One hosts 40 GBI interceptors and 20 NGI interceptors.

Based on public information, the 140 NGI interceptors appear to be capable of carrying three EKVs per interceptor, while the 40 GBI interceptors carry one EKV per interceptor.

This results in a total of 460 EKVs available for use.

Current doctrine for GBI requires the use of four EKVs per target to achieve a near-certain (>97%) probability of kill. Under shoot-look-shoot scenarios (which the current system is not capable of), you would only fire two EKVs per target, then re-fire a further two (or four) interceptors if the initial two fail to take out the target. Based on the CBO report, shoot-look-shoot targeting is assumed to be the default strategy, so we will assume only two EKVs are allocated per target.

180 silos across the three GBI/NGI sites open and 180 interceptor missiles roar into the air. 460 EKVs are on their way to engage 230 of the 900 incoming threats.

We will naively assume a 100% probability of kill for each pair of EKVs. This is extremely unrealistic (the actual probability of kill would be far lower), but it makes the math easier. Therefore, 230 of the 900 incoming threats are neutralized by the EKVs.

We have successfully eliminated 230 possible threats. However, there are still 670 threats inbound.

It's time for the four Aegis Ashore systems to earn their keep. Each system has 48 SM-3 Block IIA interceptors. In total, there are 192 SM-3 Block IIA interceptors available.

SM-3 Block IIA interceptors have only a single EKV, therefore the 192 SM-3 Block IIA interceptors translate to 192 EKVs.

We will assume that SM-3 Block IIA performance is similar to NGI/GBI performance, and that similar targeting parameters are used.

192 SM-3 Block IIA missiles are fired in rapid succession from the 48 VLS cells at each of the four Aegis Ashore installations. 192 SM-3 Block IIA EKVs are on their way to target and destroy 96 of the 670 incoming threats.

We will once again naively assume impossibly perfect performance from each pair of EKVs. Therefore, 96 of the 670 incoming threats are neutralized by the EKVs.

We have successfully eliminated 96 more possible threats. However, there are still 574 threats inbound.

None of the remaining systems have the performance to engage ICBM class threats. The 574 remaining threats fall unopposed towards their targets. As the threats enter the upper atmosphere, the 459 decoys burn up, leaving 115 RVs spread across up to 115 discrete aim points. 115 nuclear warheads detonate over American soil, each with a yield of 500 kt. The nation is devastated. The military is crippled. The economy collapses. The US is no longer a superpower. We have lost the war.

For $1.1 trillion dollars, we destroyed only the equivalent of roughly 17 ICBMs. Each ICBM cost $65 billion dollars to destroy. And in the end, we still got hit by 115 warheads. What a bargain /s.

But inevitably our enemies would respond by building more missiles, leaving us no safer than we were before.
Exactly. And the cost to build and field more missiles, RVs, and decoys is far cheaper than the cost of expanding the interceptor pools to counter them. For every extra target the enemy fires at us, we must have a bare minimum of 2–4 additional EKVs (and a proportionate number of interceptors) ready to counter it. Each NGI intercept costs a minimum of >$80 million. A single superheavy ICBM with 10 RVs and 40 decoys requires >$4 billion of interceptors to counter.

It's an endless arms race.

And the enemies are building more missiles anyway.
Not at anywhere near the scale that they would be if we actually deployed Golden Dome.

Your maths is way out. KKVs on satellites put into space using RLVs are several orders of magnitude cheaper than ICBMs. I mean nuclear MIRVs are like $100m each, so a missile will 10 is ludicrously expensive before you even factor in the huge missile.
Not according to the CBO.

The orbital boost phase layer is also obscenely expensive due to the way the number of required interceptors to intercept simultaneously launched missiles scales, which is a limitation of orbital mechanics. It doesn't matter how cheap the interceptors are when you have to add 780 additional interceptors for every additional simultaneous missile interception capability you add. Then even worse, every single one of these interceptors have to be replaced every 5 years. So you have to factor in the cost of the additional replacements every 5 years until the end of time. To keep 7800 interceptors in orbit for 20 years, you will have to build and launch a total of over 30,000 interceptors.

Other countries manufacture warheads for far cheaper than the US does. Heck, we used to manufacture them for far cheaper as well. So your cost projections are useless. Just because we neglected our industry for 30+ years doesn't mean that other countries did the same. Other counties have far cheaper cost of goods and labor, way less overhead, drastically laxer safety standards, and no ability for citizens to gum up the works with endless lawsuits. They don't have anti nuclear politicians forcing them to build pit manufacturing piecemeal at multiple sites. They don't have EPA raids shutting down pit factories over environmental crimes. They don't have endless political debate over funding nuclear weapons programs, or decades-long delays in approving critically needed new nuclear weapons program facilities/capabilities/weapons/systems. They can literally dump reprocessing waste into public waterways with no fear of the EPA coming to stop them or federal lawsuits ordering them to stop, and no need to worry over the impact on affected citizens downstream consuming radionuclide-contaminated water. The US is an outlier, not the norm.

Decoys are dirt cheap and only require a tiny amount of additional throw weight and volume. The planned US system has little to no capability to discriminate decoys.

Nah, it was the technology ratio. ICBMs are just way simpler than the interceptors designed to stop them. Even 50 years ago it required a nuclear warhead to stop a nuclear warhead and that was at like 20-30km range. 20 years ago it cost ~$30k/kg to orbit (and twice than for the Space Shuttle), now it's like $500/kg with Falcon 9 (internal costs not customer prices).
And yet, as per the CBO, the overwhelming majority of the cost is the cost of the interceptor, not the cost of the launch. Therefore even if launch costs fell to $0, orbital boost phase intercept constellations would still remain unaffordable. Additionally, launch costs for interceptors are dramatically different than costs for bulk commercial launches. And even commercial launch costs alone are still drastically higher than sticker launch costs.

7,800 satellites with 10 interceptors/KKVs each
Per the CBO, each would only have one interceptor.

180 NGIs. If they are 12 MOKVs each, that's a further 2,160.
Per public reports, only three EKVs are expected to be carried aboard each NGI. There are no indications that more than three EKVs will be carried (or could even fit) aboard the NGI, and the expected price of the NGI is incompatible with having anywhere near that number of EKVs carried on each interceptor.

Golden Dome will evolve over time, SBIs using KKVs first and then lasers and/or GBI lasers with spacve mirrors.
That would cost even more money.

By China increasing nuclear warheads and refusing to join START protocols and with Russia pulling out and DPRK building up, an arms race was already started. It's not like Golden Dome started it. Golden Dome is the response not the trigger.
Why should China join START? Their arsenals are tiny. They are right to claim that they have the right to build up their arsenals to peer levels. We have absolutely no right whatsoever to demand that they limit themselves to historic arsenal sizes. Our arms control agreements with Russia targeted equal levels of strategic weapons for each party to the agreement, not massively asymmetric levels.

The DPRK is a joke. We have nothing to fear from them. Their nukes guarantee the regime's security, and they are not stupid enough to use them.

The DPRK also literally can't afford to build an arsenal large enough to truly threaten the US.

Golden Dome would be the start of an entirely new arms race, one that would quickly grow to Cold War proportions if allowed to proceed unchecked.

Don't see how GD would alienate allies. You'll have to explain that one.
Because it incentivizes us to shift money away from nuclear and conventional military spending in order to fund golden dome. Golden dome only protects the CONUS. It does nothing to protect our allies, which rely solely on US nuclear sharing agreements, US nuclear umbrella promises, and the might of US conventional forces to protect them. Golden Dome stinks of isolationism, and that is an ill omen for any nation that is currently dependent on the United States for security guarantees.
 
Last edited:
Nuclear arms are a very real option for smaller powers to discourage superpowers from waging war against them.
I doubt even full-fat GD will discourage smaller powers from deploying nuclear arms.
It will encourage any superpower to respond in kind.
It absolutely will discourage smaller powers from investing in the pointless. It would be like investing in bow and arrows made of cheese during WWII.

Not all superpowers have RLVs.
 
It's not built to deal with a large number.

You can saturate every layer of the system by simply launching >18 R-36 ICBMs in a single salvo.
Don't see how that equates will 7,800 satellites with 10 interceptors and 180 NGIs with 12 KKVs. That's 9,500 SBIs per quadrant of Northern hemisphere.
Let's say you want to conduct a nuclear strike on the US, and that your goal is to deliver 100 warheads.

To achieve this, you simply need to fire 28 R-36 ICBMs in a single salvo.

10 of these ICBMs are intercepted and destroyed by the space based boost phase interceptor layer, which is fully saturated by the attack. The other 18 ICBMs slip through the ensuing coverage hole.
10 are destroyed by a single satellite of which there are 950/quadrant. 10 interceptors per satellite.

Assuming, for simplicity, a single layer, with each interceptor only capable of covered it's own area (no overlap).

Earth's Area = 500m km^2
Each sat covers ~63,000km^2 or ~250x250km square or 140km radius circle.

Last I checked Russian silos were spreach out over thousands of km, with TELs further still and SSBNs are unlikely to be swimming around in a little paddling pool, which would make them vulnerable for other reasons.

There's also the possibility that taking out several produces a nice debris field for the rest to fly/crash through.

Based on public information, the 140 NGI interceptors appear to be capable of carrying three EKVs per interceptor, while the 40 GBI interceptors carry one EKV per interceptor.
Source for 3? I've seen images for 6 and 12.

1778919339010.png 1778919359147.png

This suggests 7.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7494090B2/en
1778936774275.png

This even more:

https://www.patentsencyclopedia.com/imgfull/20120001015_01
1778936909563.png

So we're looking at 1080, 2160, 1260 or more.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/mkv.htm
During an engagement with the enemy, the divert and attitude control component will maneuver the carrier vehicle, with its bandolier of 8-20 small kill vehicles, onto the path of the in-bound threat complex. With the enemy now in its sights, the carrier vehicle dispenses the kill vehicles guiding them to destroy their designated targets.

I would also expect the GBIs to be replaced by NGIs eventually.

Not according to the CBO.

The orbital boost phase layer is also obscenely expensive due to the way the number of required interceptors to intercept simultaneously launched missiles scales, which is a limitation of orbital mechanics. It doesn't matter how cheap the interceptors are when you have to add 780 additional interceptors for every additional simultaneous missile interception capability you add. Then even worse, every single one of these interceptors have to be replaced every 5 years. So you have to factor in the cost of the additional replacements every 5 years until the end of time. To keep 7800 interceptors in orbit for 20 years, you will have to build and launch a total of over 30,000 interceptors.

Other countries manufacture warheads for far cheaper than the US does. Heck, we used to manufacture them for far cheaper as well. So your cost projections are useless. Just because we neglected our industry for 30+ years doesn't mean that other countries did the same. Other counties have far cheaper cost of goods and labor, way less overhead, drastically laxer safety standards, and no ability for citizens to gum up the works with endless lawsuits. They don't have anti nuclear politicians forcing them to build pit manufacturing piecemeal at multiple sites. They don't have EPA raids shutting down pit factories over environmental crimes. They don't have endless political debate over funding nuclear weapons programs, or decades-long delays in approving critically needed new nuclear weapons program facilities/capabilities/weapons/systems. They can literally dump reprocessing waste into public waterways with no fear of the EPA coming to stop them or federal lawsuits ordering them to stop, and no need to worry over the impact on affected citizens downstream consuming radionuclide-contaminated water. The US is an outlier, not the norm.

Decoys are dirt cheap and only require a tiny amount of additional throw weight and volume. The planned US system has little to no capability to discriminate decoys.

Nukes need refurbishing and re-fuelling too, it costs $10-20m/unit to refurbish B61s for instance. One KKV takes out 10 warhead missile, at $100m/warhead plus $100-200m ICBM. I question the CBO's maths and several voices in the military have too. Ultimately it boils down to whether you can build an ICBM complete with nuclear warheads (at $100m/warhead) for less than the cost of a KKV plus booster. Even if each SBI is a full SM-3 BlkIIA, that's still only $12m vs $0.5-1.2bn in relative terms.

Not at anywhere near the scale that they would be if we actually deployed Golden Dome.
No way of knowing how many China is building, or Russia (now START has collapsed). Build will ultimately be limited by cost.

Per the CBO, each would only have one interceptor.
Source?

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/golden-dome-could-cost-1-2-trillion-over-20-years-cbo-says/
  • A space-based constellation of 7,800 satellites designed to take out up to 10 intercontinental ballistic missiles launched near simultaneously as well as hypersonic glide vehicle threats
To me that says 10 per sat.

That would cost even more money.
Post-development, it would cost less to maintain and much less per shot.

Why should China join START? Their arsenals are tiny.
Not based on what many experts are saying. Their declared arsenals are tiny(ish) but growing. Most say at least 1,000 minimum, some say 5x what they've declared. The 600 figure does not compute vs silo or launcher number.
They are right to claim that they have the right to build up their arsenals to peer levels. We have absolutely no right whatsoever to demand that they limit themselves to historic arsenal sizes. Our arms control agreements with Russia targeted equal levels of strategic weapons for each party to the agreement, not massively asymmetric levels.
Nobody asked them to limit themselves to historic levels, simply to join the treaty/discuss maximum levels and submit to verification of said levels as per START.
The DPRK is a joke. We have nothing to fear from them. Their nukes guarantee the regime's security, and they are not stupid enough to use them.
At the moment...
The DPRK also literally can't afford to build an arsenal large enough to truly threaten the US.
With only 40-60 single KKV interceptors, there's no hard guarantee that even 1-2 wouldn't get through.
Golden Dome would be the start of an entirely new arms race, one that would quickly grow to Cold War proportions if allowed to proceed unchecked.
A second Cold War has already begun.

Because it incentivizes us to shift money away from nuclear and conventional military spending in order to fund golden dome. Golden dome only protects the CONUS. It does nothing to protect our allies, which rely solely on US nuclear sharing agreements, US nuclear umbrella promises, and the might of US conventional forces to protect them. Golden Dome stinks of isolationism, and that is an ill omen for any nation that is currently dependent on the United States for security guarantees.
Space-based boost-phase intercept and mid-course intercept would benefit every ally and last I read allies weren't as isolated from it as you make out.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...new-missile-defense-bargain-with-us-partners/

We clearly have a different read on the figures at this point, so futile going further.
 
Last edited:
I agree the DPRK would lose catastrophically in an all-out war with the USA.
I do not expect the DPRK is going to look for that particular fight. To rule out the DPRK using whatever it has in its armoury once such a war starts smells of terminal optimism to me.
Not too long ago, the DPRK lacked all means to strike at US territory. I assume their nuclear weapons were aimed at targets closer to home. Japan. ROK.
 
The USA is not the only adversary, and even the USA would hesitate before military action against any nation with nuclear weapons.
View attachment 812380
It works both ways.
Do the maths on it. If you have say 20ish ICBMs like maybe DPRK and your adversary has 7,800 SBI with 10 KKVs that can intercept during boost-phase and during mid-course followed by 180 NGIs with 6-12KKVs each, followed by 48 SM-3 IIB guarding important targets are you seriously going to push your luck?

I bet the US would feel a whole lot luckier than they would.

I agree the DPRK would lose catastrophically in an all-out war with the USA.
I do not expect the DPRK is going to look for that particular fight. To rule out the DPRK using whatever it has in its armoury once such a war starts smells of terminal optimism to me.
Not when you examine the maths. Although a war is unlikely unless DPRK attacks ROK. At this point I doubt the US wants to remove the DPRK and China doesn't want to either I suspect. It's a useful wall.
 
Last edited:
Numbers, statistics. And then real life rears its head.
Never mistake your model of reality for reality itself.
Tell that to the CBO.

Pentagon Pushes Back on CBO’s Trillion-Dollar Golden Dome Estimate​

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/pentagon-cbo-trillion-dollar-golden-dome-estimate/
Congressional Budget Office estimate that pegs the 20-year cost of the Pentagon’s Golden Dome program at $1.2 trillion dollars is based on inaccurate assumptions about the advanced missile shield’s architecture, according to the general in charge of the project.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Look at how Ukraine fared after it signed away its nuclear weapons in a treaty not worth the paper it was written on.
Consider why India and Pakistan acquired nuclear weapons.
Look at Israel's nuclear program.
The USA is not the only threat to smaller nuclear powers.
The CBO are bean counters, not engineers or military.
The Pentagon and its political overlords have a history of overambitious (overly optimistic? downright unrealistic?) planning, so beancounters serve a purpose.
Shooting the bearer of bad news is, and always has been, a really bad idea.
 
Last edited:
Look at how Ukraine fared after it signed away its nuclear weapons in a treaty not worth the paper it was written on.
Consider why India and Pakistan acquired nuclear weapons.
Look at Israel's nuclear program.
The USA is not the only threat to smaller nuclear powers.
Different times, different situation, different adversaries with less comprehensive missile defences.
The Pentagon and its political overlords have a history of overambitious (overly optimistic? downright unrealistic?) planning, so beancounters serve a purpose.
Shooting the bearer of bad news is, and always has been, a really bad idea.
Project managers on an engineering project typically consult the engineers as regards timescales and BoM (Bill of Materials) to calculate man-hours and cost. Here, it appears that didn't happen:
Guetlein agreed that there is a dearth of public detail on the program due to concerns about security and classification, which he said likely explains why CBO’s estimate is seven times the Defense Department’s own $185 billion, 10-year projection. However, according to Guetlein, CBO didn’t consult the program office before releasing its report.

So it's not bad news, it's simply a bunch of made up stuff. Shooting them still seems harsh though.
 
Guetlein agreed that there is a dearth of public detail on the program due to concerns about security and classification
Making proper oversight much harder.
"You are wrong, but I am not going to tell you why. Just trust me.¨
"Riiiight..."
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom