Really old secret projects (1800s and earlier)

Projects of ships with turrets, 1850-1860s, Cowper Coles:
Raft with gun:
Coles 1.jpg
Gun ship:
Coles 2.jpg
First project of full-size ironclad, ten double-barrel turrets (rebuilt of wooden ship-of-the-line)
Coles 3.jpg
Known about later projects with single-barrel turrets, 4000 ton with six 68-pdr guns, later - five 7-inch RML guns, later - four 9-inch RML guns.
Unknown British six-turret twelve-gun ironclad project (1860s?):
IMG_20211224_190154.jpg
 
Wow...

FWIW, the infamous circular Russian river-monitors seem to have been inspired by that formidable English treatise...
 
Nik said:
FWIW, the infamous circular Russian river-monitors seem to have been inspired by that formidable English treatise...
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Sigh.

1. They weren't.
2. They weren't river monitors, they were coastal defense ships.
3. They weren't exactly "infamous", because they done their main function - deter enemy ships from attacking important ports and harbors - perfectly well. Their whole concept was basically caused by poor state of Russian Black Sea shipyards by 1870s; after Crimean War, Black Sea was demilitarized, so Russia have no reason to spend much on military shipbuilding here. So after limitations were removed, the shipyards on Black Sea were in rather outdated condition and struggled to build modern ironclad warships.

The Popovka's were the solution. Due to their simple hull shape - all frames and plates are the same - they could be constructed even by unexperienced workers. And they could carry much more guns & armor in limited displacement than "proper" ironclad of same size. Considering that Ottoman Empire have a massive ironclad fleet in Med, and Russia just started to rebuild Black Sea fleet, unorthodox solution was the only way to deter Ottomans.
 
A lessor known Confederate submarine project of the ACW was the Bayou St. John submarine found in 1878 in the bayou it is named for.

ConfederateSubmarine_SpanishFort_Mugnier_blocks.jpg


On display about 1890.
Today it's on display at the Louisiana state museum

1024px-BRStateMuseumJuly08SubmarineD.jpg


www.nola.com

Today a picturesque waterway, Bayou St. John once harbored a Civil War submarine

Imagine this. It’s Bayou Boogaloo and you’re on the raft you built with your buddies. You plunge your oar into the waters of Bayou St. John and feel it scrape
www.nola.com www.nola.com

Nothing is known of the designer(s) or builder(s) and the sub was scuttled towards the end of the Civil War and likely any documentation was destroyed at the same time. But the sub itself does still exist so there's that...
 
Another example of mid-19th century technological madness, a proposal for a telescopic (automated?) rig for turret ships, circa 1869:

Mast, Telescopic | Royal Museums Greenwich

www.rmg.co.uk www.rmg.co.uk

1746537301680.png


Mast, Telescopic | Royal Museums Greenwich

www.rmg.co.uk www.rmg.co.uk

1746537400782.png

with even some hints to hull form and machinery:

1746537549035.png


Mast, Telescopic | Royal Museums Greenwich

www.rmg.co.uk www.rmg.co.uk

1746537439650.png

1746537450233.png

Unfortunately, there are no discernible details as to who invented this but apparently it was proposed to the admiralty since the plans are found in it's archives.
 
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There might be a hint as to who designed this on the detail drawing of the telescopic mast. There is a signature below the line "Below the Deck" in the lower right-hand corner.
 
What I find additionally interesting in those plans is the presence of a proto-anti-torpedo bulge.

Overall a stark example of period retro-futurism.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
A lessor known Confederate submarine project of the ACW was the Bayou St. John submarine found in 1878 in the bayou it is named for.

ConfederateSubmarine_SpanishFort_Mugnier_blocks.jpg


On display about 1890.
Today it's on display at the Louisiana state museum

1024px-BRStateMuseumJuly08SubmarineD.jpg


www.nola.com

Today a picturesque waterway, Bayou St. John once harbored a Civil War submarine

Imagine this. It’s Bayou Boogaloo and you’re on the raft you built with your buddies. You plunge your oar into the waters of Bayou St. John and feel it scrape
www.nola.com www.nola.com

Nothing is known of the designer(s) or builder(s) and the sub was scuttled towards the end of the Civil War and likely any documentation was destroyed at the same time. But the sub itself does still exist so there's that...
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I've seen that vessel referred to as Pioneer in old reference books, but even those considered it likely to be something else as Pioneer was described as larger and was scuttled in another waterway. I read somewhere that it was hypothesized to be a prototype of the Pioneer or a parallel development by others.
 
Bottleship said:
Ivanov "three-keel air-swimmer" ("трёхкильный аэроплав"), Russia, 1853
View attachment 670294
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There might be an intentional opening on the rear which allows the air to escape, this is not a good idea. Other than that, it is suprisingly modern, there is a lot of research on concepts to reduce skin friction of ships by using water cushions going on (with little applications in the real world). Most of them are about air bubbles but some (https://www.aircat-vessels.com/principle.html) are more like this old concept here.

I guess, the most promising applications would be river barges/ships with their shallow draught (low air pressure), calm water (little air loss due to waves and ship motion) and a large amount of friction losses of the bottom (about 4 to 5 times the width of the draught).

see also:
 
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Plans of 18th century bombardment ships - with mortars and howitzers.

image.jpg
image (1).jpg

It's interesting that in the 18th and 19th centuries, "howitzer" ships were singled out for special treatment. They were considered more versatile and could be successfully used against enemy fleets, unlike ships armed with mortars.

I think it's rather odd that in the second half of the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries, there was no development of such ships. Almost all ships carried only cannons, which, up until the 1920s and 1930s, typically had very limited elevation angles, including monitors and gunboats. Enormous rifled cannons up to 457 mm (18 inches) already existed in the 1870s. In theory, what prevented the development of mortars or howitzers of this caliber and the creation of a bombardment ship armed with them to destroy coastal fortifications?
 
The Prussian ship, called here "Patache," is essentially a variation of the oar-powered frigate and galleass. Its sails are triangular, more typical of galleys and xebecs, and the ship has a flat bottom to navigate shallow waters. Such ships were typically built by the Swedes and Russians.
IMG_20260424_213937.jpg
 
World B4 said:
Hassan al-Ramah's medieval rocket powered surface torpedo design.'t
warhistory.org

Hassan Al Rammah - WarHistory.org

It was invented by Arab inventor named Hassan Al Rammah between 1270 and 1280, who worked in Syria after the Mongol destruction of Baghdad. He wrote a treati...
warhistory.org warhistory.org

Model, Rocket Torpedo, Hassan er-Rammah or Hasan al-Rammah, ca. 1280 A.D. | National Air and Space Museum

airandspace.si.edu airandspace.si.edu
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The torpedo was named Al-Rammah and it was a point-and-fire weapon far cheaper and more efficient than a fire ship. When activated, the torpedo’s built-in pair of rockets would push it through the water, and tail stabilizers would direct it to the target. A spear on the front would impale itself in the hull of an enemy ship, and then the whole first-of-a-kind torpedo would explode.

Would the tail stabilizers allow for a straight line with thrust from the pair of rockets?? Isn't it more likely to just spin around and then blow up.....although that could be useful in creating confusion.
 
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PMN1 said:
The torpedo was named Al-Rammah and it was a point-and-fire weapon far cheaper and more efficient than a fire ship. When activated, the torpedo’s built-in pair of rockets would push it through the water, and tail stabilizers would direct it to the target. A spear on the front would impale itself in the hull of an enemy ship, and then the whole first-of-a-kind torpedo would explode.

Would the tail stabilizers allow for a straight line with thrust from the pair of rockets?? Isn't it more likely to just spin around and then blow up.....although that could be useful in creating confusion.
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Mythbusters seem to have tried it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cScKs-rrPJI
 
Bottleship said:
Swedish ships-of-the-line "Vasa" and "Kronan" projected with 70+ and 126 guns, but, builted with 64 and 105 guns.
In early 1720th in Russia worked at new ships-of-the-line, with 90, 100 and 110 guns. In Peter I period builted 90-gun ships, and started building of 100-gun ship (later, named a "Peter I and II"). Works at 110-gun ship stopped with death of Peter I.
In Crimean war period, in Russia started worked at new big steam-powered ships. One of early projects - 90-gun ship-of-the-line, with 3-pood (273 mm) bomb guns. But, engineers told the emperor - "It's a very huge ship", and, project reduced to 74 3-pood guns. Later, based on this project created "General-admiral" frigate, with 60 60-pound (196 mm), 6 36-pound and two 3-pood bomb guns.
Engineer A. A. Popov in 1877 projected big armour-vessels for Black Sea fleet, with four 16 inch guns, 24 inch belt and speed 12 knots, and for Baltic fleet, with six 16 inch or four 20 inch guns and 36 inch belt.
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Do you happen to have any images or sorses for popov ships?
 
Dilandu said:
Its a lumber barge, the "belyana", made to move lumber (in its own structure) and other cargo ahd passengers of convenience downriver. It was build near lumberjacks camp, and then moved down the river, where it was dismantled for lumber - essentially one-use ship. Those particular belyana survived because it caught fire and sunk, and was only recently found.
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The US used something very similar for moving wood down the Missouri-Mississippi river basin to New Orleans etc. You can find houses built of "barge wood" still today. Not many, most have been hurricane-blasted off their foundations, but there's still a small number out there.


Dilandu said:
I doubt that Chinese treasure ships have anything in common with belyanas.
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Probably not, a barge has terrible sea-keeping.
 

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