• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Really old secret projects (1800s and earlier)

Pirate Pete

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
133
Reaction score
76
Now that would have been a beast!!
Something in the region of 150 guns Broadside alone, so add in bow chasers and stern guns, not forgetting Carronades, and she must have been designed for something in the region of 160 guns of large sizes.
I would imagine that the practicality of docking and other such 'mundane' tasks would have produced more that a few challenges.
I seem to recall that the Three-deckers, whilst being the 'pin-ups' of the fleet, at least as far as the public were concerned, were outnumbers by the more flexible two-deckers in practice.
 

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,440
Reaction score
143
Many thanks, I had no images from this monster. It was even slighty bigger than "Santísima Trinidad" from Armada Española, the "Yamato of the XVIII Century".
 

Graham1973

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
1,456
Reaction score
201
pometablava said:
Many thanks, I had no images from this monster. It was even slighty bigger than "Santísima Trinidad" from Armada Española, the "Yamato of the XVIII Century".
Where did you find the details for this 170-gun ship?

Didn't the US build something like this?
 

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,440
Reaction score
143
Didn't the US build something like this?
You're right, it was the USS Pennsylvania from 1837


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pennsylvania_(1837)

About the spanish ship, please google "Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad ship of the line"
 

Iron Felix

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
214
Reaction score
445
Swedish ships-of-the-line "Vasa" and "Kronan" projected with 70+ and 126 guns, but, builted with 64 and 105 guns.
In early 1720th in Russia worked at new ships-of-the-line, with 90, 100 and 110 guns. In Peter I period builted 90-gun ships, and started building of 100-gun ship (later, named a "Peter I and II"). Works at 110-gun ship stopped with death of Peter I.
In Crimean war period, in Russia started worked at new big steam-powered ships. One of early projects - 90-gun ship-of-the-line, with 3-pood (273 mm) bomb guns. But, engineers told the emperor - "It's a very huge ship", and, project reduced to 74 3-pood guns. Later, based on this project created "General-admiral" frigate, with 60 60-pound (196 mm), 6 36-pound and two 3-pood bomb guns.
Engineer A. A. Popov in 1877 projected big armour-vessels for Black Sea fleet, with four 16 inch guns, 24 inch belt and speed 12 knots, and for Baltic fleet, with six 16 inch or four 20 inch guns and 36 inch belt.
 
Last edited:

Iron Felix

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
214
Reaction score
445
Experimental 1790 ships, akat (based on acation) - hybryd between xebek (speed, paddles) and frigate (strong shiting, sails). In Russia bulted two akats "Irina" and "№2". Feature - heavy guns.
а_10.jpg
On rostrum - two 3-pood hovitzers (or edinorogs? I see on plan big edinorog), in deck - ten 0.5-pood edinorogs, on quarterdeck - six 8-pound edinorogs.
Russian edinorog (Rus. unicorn) - hybrid between hovitzer and cannon, and can shoot bombs and balls.

3-pood hovitzer - bomb 49.14 kg. One pood - 16.38 kg, or 40 Russian merchant pound, one pound 0.4095 kg.
0.5-pood edinorog - bomb 8.19 kg, or 20 Russian merchant pound. Can shoot ball in 24 Russian artillery pounds, or 11.8 kg - one pound 0.4914 kg. Rate of fire - twice a fast than 0.5-pood hovitzer. Buckshot - four times stronger than 12-pound cannon. Weight and range - 12-pound cannon.
8-pound edinorog - bomb 3.93 kg. Can shoot ball in ~5.5-5.66 kg.
Weight of volley on one board - bombs 52.74 kg, balls - ~76 kg. It's ~167 British pounds, and weight of volley of British fifth-rate ships, ~14 12-pound cannons. But, lenght of akats - 29 m, beam 8 m, dimensions of brig or sloop. Lenght of fifth-rate ~40 m, beam 10-11 m. Many light ships in this period use carronades, but, it's a very short distance, smaller than edinorogs.
Weight of volley on a rostrum - 98.3 kg - bigger, than volley on a board - and, it's bombs, not balls.
...
Other Russian naval wunderwaffe by engineer Vasiliy Korchmin (Peter I era):
- Gun platform for galley, 1.5 time more powerful than standart
- Flamethrowering tubes
- Furnace for heating of balls
- Incendiary rockets
Also, Korchmin with Jacob Bruce, in 1707 projected "long hovitzer" - early variant of edinorog, but, I haven't data about use this gun on ships.
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,308
Reaction score
355
Excuse me but, what are the following:-

Shiting sails.
Edinorog, the only reference I can find is a Russian monitor from the mid 1860's.
Akats.
Pood I think I worked out as "pound".

Not picking holes, curious and wanting to get things straight. Thanks.
 

Iron Felix

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
214
Reaction score
445
Excuse me but, what are the following:-

Shiting sails.
Edinorog, the only reference I can find is a Russian monitor from the mid 1860's.
Akats.
Pood I think I worked out as "pound".

Not picking holes, curious and wanting to get things straight. Thanks.
Edinorog is Russian name of Unicorn. In old Russian laguage - inrog.
Unicorn was a main detail of coat of arms of graf (earl) Shuvalov. Shuvalov in 1750th patronized a creating "new" gun, by engineers Martinov and Danilov - but, actually, it was a "long hovitzer", created in 1707 by Korchmin and Bruce. And, first "new" guns maked with coat of arms of Shuvalov, with unicorn, and the name is fixed.
Akat - it's Russian variant of Roman "Acatium", name of light ships.
Pood (пуд) - in Russia, 40 merchant pounds. Standart merchand pound in Russia - 409.5 g, also, "grivna", and, pre-Peter artillery use "grivna". Peter I reformired army, and, "grivenka" renamed to "funt", based on German "pfund". And, created new "funt" for artillery, 491.4 g, analog of French pound, 491-492 g. But, "pood" it's also 40 merchant pounds, not artillery pounds.
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,308
Reaction score
355
Thank you, much appreciated.
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,157
Reaction score
757
As the thread title is "Really old secret projects (1800s and earlier)" and because I found again an old book of
mine, here are two ships from 30 to 40 years before Christ. Those are reconstructions of Roman capital ships,
known from gems and mentions in contemporary literature and are said to have been used in the battle of Actium
(31B.C.) and during the era of emperor Caligula.
They must have been the Yamatos/Montanas of their time, the Enneris had nine rows of rowers, three for each oar,
total number were about 630 rowers, the Decemremis 10 rows and five rowers for each oar, totalling about 700 rowers.
The number of soldiers, the main weapon of Roman warships, could have been 400 to 500, the turrets were for a number
of catapults (catapultae, ballistas) and flame throwers (siphones).
(from : H.D.L. Viereck "Die römische Flotte", Koehler Verlag 1975)
 

Attachments

MJBurmaster

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
21
Reaction score
7
Thinking that we need a thread for all old (pre-1880s?) projects.

Came across HMS Duke of Kent design for a four-deck ship of the line on Reddit. c1809. Never built. Original source http://collections.rmg.co.uk/

The "architect's eye" suggests to me a great deal of topweight with a ship which is going to heel and obviously a very restricted GMZ angle - even with the best of gunport coatings there's the danger of water entry. Also another point of interest is the absolute lack of boarding ports and grapples - honestly, slinging everyone aboard or clambering up on the hull in cliff-scaling fashion doesn't make sense!
 

natewillcome4you

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
108
Reaction score
58
Would civil war ironclads count? If so, the CSS Muscogee and CSS Mississippi were 2 confederate ironclads that as far as I can tell didn't have sister ships. They were under construction, but were destroyed before entering service. The same story applies to the USS Puritan, a monitor designed with 20 inch guns, but never built, and her incomplete hull was later used as the basis for the late 1800s USS Puritan. The 4 Kalamazoo class monitors, designed to be the most seaworthy monitors in the Union fleet, were never completed. There was a project called the Stevens Battery that was constantly being redesigned from the 1840s to the 1860s, until it was eventually cancelled. All of these have Wikipedia articles.
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,157
Reaction score
757
... Also another point of interest is the absolute lack of boarding ports ...
Not sure, if this is one ?

@ nate: I think, US civil war designs should be posted in a separate thread, especially as they were considerable later,
than the end of the 17th century.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

natewillcome4you

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
108
Reaction score
58
There's the various russian submarine projects on deepstorm.ru, and Fulton's planned second improved version of the Nautilus for the british.
 

Iron Felix

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
214
Reaction score
445
As the thread title is "Really old secret projects (1800s and earlier)" and because I found again an old book of
mine, here are two ships from 30 to 40 years before Christ. Those are reconstructions of Roman capital ships,
known from gems and mentions in contemporary literature and are said to have been used in the battle of Actium
(31B.C.) and during the era of emperor Caligula.
They must have been the Yamatos/Montanas of their time, the Enneris had nine rows of rowers, three for each oar,
total number were about 630 rowers, the Decemremis 10 rows and five rowers for each oar, totalling about 700 rowers.
The number of soldiers, the main weapon of Roman warships, could have been 400 to 500, the turrets were for a number
of catapults (catapultae, ballistas) and flame throwers (siphones).
(from : H.D.L. Viereck "Die römische Flotte", Koehler Verlag 1975)
As far as I know, biggest ancient ships was a 120-150 metres lenght. It's a Roman Kaligula's ships, Egiptian "Tessarakonteres" and Chinese "treasure ships". "Tessarakonteres" was a 130 metres lenght, with 4000 oarsman, 2850 marines and 400 ratings, officers and deckhands.
Arts of "Tessarakonteres":
CRT004_06-680x225.gif
150874210318737920.jpg
Also, one of tradition Russian plot - town or fortress on huge ship:
Gorbatov_Belyany.jpg
21221524.829647.1130.jpg
1190897239.jpg
I don't know, maybe, this idea based on ancient giants. And, in Russia from middle XIV century to WW1 builted huge transport wooden ships, for rivers (Volga, etc), named a "belyana" (Russian "беляна"). Big ship for one navigation, not tarred, and, very primitive construction. Biggest "belyana" was a 120 metres lenght, and carryng capacity to 800 000 poods, or 13 100 ton. I haven't data about using of "belyana" at the war, but, I think, it was a very stable platform for montage a guns. Maybe, on "belyana" builted a primitive wooden fortress, and, based on this river battleships, in Russian culture appeated a "town/fortress on huge ship".
(Kaligula's ship at the photo :))
9be865942422976672e426373cc1e6b6.jpg
149967454816174906.jpg
-3-e1426175104938 (Копировать).jpg
 

MJBurmaster

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
21
Reaction score
7
... Also another point of interest is the absolute lack of boarding ports ...
Not sure, if this is one ?

@ nate: I think, US civil war designs should be posted in a separate thread, especially as they were considerable later,
than the end of the 17th century.
Thanks, Jemiba, certainly that port is not outstanding!
I still wonder about the gunnery on the topdeck, would need light weaponry just to acheive some stability. Although estimation of such was still in the infancy, the "gut feeling" of the naval designer in those times would have been toward conservatism and avoiding heavy heights so high above the waterline. What was the beam of the ship? Again, keeping in mind the docks available, you don't have much room for play on beam.
 

Hardrada55

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
78
Reaction score
14
As the thread title is "Really old secret projects (1800s and earlier)" and because I found again an old book of
mine, here are two ships from 30 to 40 years before Christ. Those are reconstructions of Roman capital ships,
known from gems and mentions in contemporary literature and are said to have been used in the battle of Actium
(31B.C.) and during the era of emperor Caligula.
They must have been the Yamatos/Montanas of their time, the Enneris had nine rows of rowers, three for each oar,
total number were about 630 rowers, the Decemremis 10 rows and five rowers for each oar, totalling about 700 rowers.
The number of soldiers, the main weapon of Roman warships, could have been 400 to 500, the turrets were for a number
of catapults (catapultae, ballistas) and flame throwers (siphones).
(from : H.D.L. Viereck "Die römische Flotte", Koehler Verlag 1975)
As far as I know, biggest ancient ships was a 120-150 metres lenght. It's a Roman Kaligula's ships, Egiptian "Tessarakonteres" and Chinese "treasure ships". "Tessarakonteres" was a 130 metres lenght, with 4000 oarsman, 2850 marines and 400 ratings, officers and deckhands.
Arts of "Tessarakonteres":
View attachment 621697
View attachment 621696
Also, one of tradition Russian plot - town or fortress on huge ship:
View attachment 621689
View attachment 621690
View attachment 621691
I don't know, maybe, this idea based on ancient giants. And, in Russia from middle XIV century to WW1 builted huge transport wooden ships, for rivers (Volga, etc), named a "belyana" (Russian "беляна"). Big ship for one navigation, not tarred, and, very primitive construction. Biggest "belyana" was a 120 metres lenght, and carryng capacity to 800 000 poods, or 13 100 ton. I haven't data about using of "belyana" at the war, but, I think, it was a very stable platform for montage a guns. Maybe, on "belyana" builted a primitive wooden fortress, and, based on this river battleships, in Russian culture appeated a "town/fortress on huge ship".
(Kaligula's ship at the photo :))
View attachment 621692
View attachment 621694
View attachment 621693
You can see why they came to call the control center of a ship, the "bridge".
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,308
Reaction score
355
Thanks for posting these, fascinating.
 

Iron Felix

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
214
Reaction score
445
Also, messages of European travelers about Russian ships, XVI-XVII century (I don't know if they can be trusted):
- (in the north of Russia) - "We saw 500-ton Pomors's lodia"
- (on Caspian sea, 1600th) - "Big merchant ships, with diceplacement 2000 ton, like a galleon"
Unfortunately, today the topic of the development of pre-Petrine (pre-1690s) Russia is covered by a large number of rumors and conjectures, including the connection of the Slavs with the “gods” - aliens, miracle technologies, etc.
...
Projects from XIX century (project review dates, Russian Marine Scientific Committee):
Titular Advisor I. P. Shengelidzev:
- Extendable keel, 13 July - 23 August, 1849
- Safety rafts, 20 June - 16 August, 1849
- Machine for fast firing bullets and cannonballs, 26 July - 26 August, 1849
- Propulsion mechanism for small ship, 1 November 1849 - 25 November 1850
- Suberic "pantsir" (Rus. панцырь) + protect of marine fortresses, 9 June - 22 Jule 1854
("pantsir" - in Medieval Russia - name of chain male variant, in Tsarist's Russia in XIX - early XX century, this name used for many different objects, scale armour, bulletproof vests, etc. And, suberic "pantsir" may be a suberic vest or, also, for example, armour for ships)

Employee V. A. Andreev:
- Shooting method for guns under water, 11 June 1849 - 12 May 1854

Colonel Konstantinov:
- Battle rockets for navy, 1854

Peasant P. Yudin:
- Machine movement without steam, 5 November 1852 - 3 October 1857 (ICE?)

Naval engineer Burachek:
- 20-gun brig with iron ship frame, 9 February 1854 - 17 February 1856

Lieutenant/midshipman I. P. Belavents:
- Iron battery, 1 November 1855 - 23 January 1856

Furniture master Englund (Finn):
- 6-rounds gun, 8 May - 20 August 1856

Peasant A. Hitrov:
- Breechloading gun, 25 May - 5 November 1856

Lieutenant colonel Obukhov - steel floating battery sheating, 13 June 1857 - 21 June 1859 (ironclad?)

Lieutenant Livenstern - rotated thrusters, 30 December 1857 - 14 April 1858

Engineer-mechanic A. M. Perkins (British? American?) - use of steam machine for gun firing, 27 Marth - 2 April 1857

Merchant A. Samoylov - 4-rounds gun, 1 November 1858 - 19 January 1859

Silversmith I. Martinen (Finn) - floating battery, protected for shelling, 21 September 1859 - 25 September 1865

College assessor N. A. Plechko - trellised armour + rifled shell, 9 April - 28 June 1865

Locksmith M. Davidov (Rus. Давыдов) - model of gun, 25 June - 11 August 1866

Odessa resident Kogan - special way to move ships, 31 August - 25 October 1866

K. Tokarskiy - water walking gear, 30 June - 29 Jule 1869

Math candidate Yakubenko - ship-ram, 26 May 1871 - 8 January 1875

Peterburg resident Alesandrova (woman) - new driving force for steamboats, 15 May - 23 May 1874

E. A. Lohovits (Rus. Э. А. Лоховитц) - new type of ships, 14 Marth - 4 May 1877

Mechanic P. Izhboldin - "Struekhod" ("struya" - water jet + "khod" - walker), 22 April - 15 May 1878 (water-jet engine? - I know about other water-jet project, Shestunov 1677-ton submarine, 1877-1879)
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,206
Reaction score
824
Fantastic thread (wonder if land or early balloons not to mention rivals to Leonardo DV might also yield some interesting kit?)
Two factual but maybe never-weres that always intrigued me:
how big and with how many banks of oars did classical Mediterranean galleys grow?
Was the famous Chinese fleet of yore as impressive as claimed?
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,157
Reaction score
757
Cracking book shelves can have a positive side effect ! I rediscovered "Die Römische Flotte" by H.D.L. Viereck (The Roman Fleet), which to my opinion gives
quite a good insight into ship building around the time of the beginning of our calendar.

The biggest Roman warships shown, that perhaps actually may have been used in action are the Enneris and the Decemremis, both known from Roman cameos.
Apart from mentions in contemporary sources, their dimensions were deduced from wrecks found in the Lake Nemi.

1589386768730.png

The Enneris would have had a length of about 66 m, a width of 19 m, and no ram bow. It's assumed, that it was meant to simply push enemy ships under water
with its upwards curved bow. It may have had about 630 oarsmen, handling 210 oars, and up to 400 soldiers.

1589386599763.png

The Decemremis had a length of about 71 m, width of 20 m, about 700 oarsmen, handling 140 oars, and maybe up to 510 soldiers.

1589386809608.png

From wrecks recovered oars show, that for bigger ships half of the oarsmen were pulling, the other half pushing the oars.

1589386852220.png

Sources mention even bigger ships with up to 4000 oarsmen and 1850 soldiers, but that certainly were pure show pieces and not actually used in action.
The most plausibel reconstructions of that Tessakontere show it as a kind of very big barge with a length of about 124 m.

1589386878984.png
 

Attachments

Top