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Really old secret projects (1800s and earlier)

covert_shores

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Thinking that we need a thread for all old (pre-1880s?) projects.

Came across HMS Duke of Kent design for a four-deck ship of the line on Reddit. c1809. Never built. Original source http://collections.rmg.co.uk/
 

pf matthews

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Now that would have been a beast!!
Something in the region of 150 guns Broadside alone, so add in bow chasers and stern guns, not forgetting Carronades, and she must have been designed for something in the region of 160 guns of large sizes.
I would imagine that the practicality of docking and other such 'mundane' tasks would have produced more that a few challenges.
I seem to recall that the Three-deckers, whilst being the 'pin-ups' of the fleet, at least as far as the public were concerned, were outnumbers by the more flexible two-deckers in practice.
 

Antonio

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Many thanks, I had no images from this monster. It was even slighty bigger than "Santísima Trinidad" from Armada Española, the "Yamato of the XVIII Century".
 

Avimimus

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Any idea how big the rudder would be?
 

Graham1973

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pometablava said:
Many thanks, I had no images from this monster. It was even slighty bigger than "Santísima Trinidad" from Armada Española, the "Yamato of the XVIII Century".
Where did you find the details for this 170-gun ship?

Didn't the US build something like this?
 

Antonio

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Didn't the US build something like this?
You're right, it was the USS Pennsylvania from 1837


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pennsylvania_(1837)

About the spanish ship, please google "Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad ship of the line"
 

Iron Felix

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Swedish ships-of-the-line "Vasa" and "Kronan" projected with 70+ and 126 guns, but, builted with 64 and 105 guns.
In early 1720th in Russia worked at new ships-of-the-line, with 90, 100 and 110 guns. In Peter I period builted 90-gun ships, and started building of 100-gun ship (later, named a "Peter I and II"). Works at 110-gun ship stopped with death of Peter I.
In Crimean war period, in Russia started worked at new big steam-powered ships. One of early projects - 90-gun ship-of-the-line, with 3-pood (273 mm) bomb guns. But, engineers told the emperor - "It's a very huge ship", and, project reduced to 74 3-pood guns. Later, based on this project created "General-admiral" frigate, with 60 60-pound (196 mm), 6 36-pound and two 3-pood bomb guns.
Engineer A. A. Popov in 1877 projected big armour-vessels for Black Sea fleet, with four 16 inch guns, 24 inch belt and speed 12 knots, and for Baltic fleet, with six 16 inch or four 20 inch guns and 36 inch belt.
 
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Iron Felix

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Experimental 1790 ships, akat (based on acation) - hybryd between xebek (speed, paddles) and frigate (strong shiting, sails). In Russia bulted two akats "Irina" and "№2". Feature - heavy guns.
а_10.jpg
On rostrum - two 3-pood hovitzers (or edinorogs? I see on plan big edinorog), in deck - ten 0.5-pood edinorogs, on quarterdeck - six 8-pound edinorogs.
Russian edinorog (Rus. unicorn) - hybrid between hovitzer and cannon, and can shoot bombs and balls.

3-pood hovitzer - bomb 49.14 kg. One pood - 16.38 kg, or 40 Russian merchant pound, one pound 0.4095 kg.
0.5-pood edinorog - bomb 8.19 kg, or 20 Russian merchant pound. Can shoot ball in 24 Russian artillery pounds, or 11.8 kg - one pound 0.4914 kg. Rate of fire - twice a fast than 0.5-pood hovitzer. Buckshot - four times stronger than 12-pound cannon. Weight and range - 12-pound cannon.
8-pound edinorog - bomb 3.93 kg. Can shoot ball in ~5.5-5.66 kg.
Weight of volley on one board - bombs 52.74 kg, balls - ~76 kg. It's ~167 British pounds, and weight of volley of British fifth-rate ships, ~14 12-pound cannons. But, lenght of akats - 29 m, beam 8 m, dimensions of brig or sloop. Lenght of fifth-rate ~40 m, beam 10-11 m. Many light ships in this period use carronades, but, it's a very short distance, smaller than edinorogs.
Weight of volley on a rostrum - 98.3 kg - bigger, than volley on a board - and, it's bombs, not balls.
...
Other Russian naval wunderwaffe by engineer Vasiliy Korchmin (Peter I era):
- Gun platform for galley, 1.5 time more powerful than standart
- Flamethrowering tubes
- Furnace for heating of balls
- Incendiary rockets
Also, Korchmin with Jacob Bruce, in 1707 projected "long hovitzer" - early variant of edinorog, but, I haven't data about use this gun on ships.
 

Foo Fighter

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Excuse me but, what are the following:-

Shiting sails.
Edinorog, the only reference I can find is a Russian monitor from the mid 1860's.
Akats.
Pood I think I worked out as "pound".

Not picking holes, curious and wanting to get things straight. Thanks.
 

Iron Felix

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Excuse me but, what are the following:-

Shiting sails.
Edinorog, the only reference I can find is a Russian monitor from the mid 1860's.
Akats.
Pood I think I worked out as "pound".

Not picking holes, curious and wanting to get things straight. Thanks.
Edinorog is Russian name of Unicorn. In old Russian laguage - inrog.
Unicorn was a main detail of coat of arms of graf (earl) Shuvalov. Shuvalov in 1750th patronized a creating "new" gun, by engineers Martinov and Danilov - but, actually, it was a "long hovitzer", created in 1707 by Korchmin and Bruce. And, first "new" guns maked with coat of arms of Shuvalov, with unicorn, and the name is fixed.
Akat - it's Russian variant of Roman "Acatium", name of light ships.
Pood (пуд) - in Russia, 40 merchant pounds. Standart merchand pound in Russia - 409.5 g, also, "grivna", and, pre-Peter artillery use "grivna". Peter I reformired army, and, "grivenka" renamed to "funt", based on German "pfund". And, created new "funt" for artillery, 491.4 g, analog of French pound, 491-492 g. But, "pood" it's also 40 merchant pounds, not artillery pounds.
 

Foo Fighter

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Thank you, much appreciated.
 

Jemiba

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As the thread title is "Really old secret projects (1800s and earlier)" and because I found again an old book of
mine, here are two ships from 30 to 40 years before Christ. Those are reconstructions of Roman capital ships,
known from gems and mentions in contemporary literature and are said to have been used in the battle of Actium
(31B.C.) and during the era of emperor Caligula.
They must have been the Yamatos/Montanas of their time, the Enneris had nine rows of rowers, three for each oar,
total number were about 630 rowers, the Decemremis 10 rows and five rowers for each oar, totalling about 700 rowers.
The number of soldiers, the main weapon of Roman warships, could have been 400 to 500, the turrets were for a number
of catapults (catapultae, ballistas) and flame throwers (siphones).
(from : H.D.L. Viereck "Die römische Flotte", Koehler Verlag 1975)
 

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MJBurmaster

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Thinking that we need a thread for all old (pre-1880s?) projects.

Came across HMS Duke of Kent design for a four-deck ship of the line on Reddit. c1809. Never built. Original source http://collections.rmg.co.uk/

The "architect's eye" suggests to me a great deal of topweight with a ship which is going to heel and obviously a very restricted GMZ angle - even with the best of gunport coatings there's the danger of water entry. Also another point of interest is the absolute lack of boarding ports and grapples - honestly, slinging everyone aboard or clambering up on the hull in cliff-scaling fashion doesn't make sense!
 

natewillcome4you

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Would civil war ironclads count? If so, the CSS Muscogee and CSS Mississippi were 2 confederate ironclads that as far as I can tell didn't have sister ships. They were under construction, but were destroyed before entering service. The same story applies to the USS Puritan, a monitor designed with 20 inch guns, but never built, and her incomplete hull was later used as the basis for the late 1800s USS Puritan. The 4 Kalamazoo class monitors, designed to be the most seaworthy monitors in the Union fleet, were never completed. There was a project called the Stevens Battery that was constantly being redesigned from the 1840s to the 1860s, until it was eventually cancelled. All of these have Wikipedia articles.
 

Jemiba

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... Also another point of interest is the absolute lack of boarding ports ...
Not sure, if this is one ?

@ nate: I think, US civil war designs should be posted in a separate thread, especially as they were considerable later,
than the end of the 17th century.
 

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