DCNS A3SM anti-aircraft self-defense for submarines

[Triton]

"DCNS introduces a new weapon system for submarines: anti-aircraft self-defense"

Currently, submarines have no alternative but to flee when detected by helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft. But thanks to a new air defense system developed by DCNS in cooperation with MBDA, the game is about to change.

Indeed, to meet the needs of navies to protect their submarines from air threats, The DCNS-designed A3SM comes in two versions, both fully integrated with Subtics® combat systems:

http://youtu.be/jIGl42ELB_A

Mast version: Comprises a missile housing (that remains watertight throughout the submarine’s operating range and down to maximum diving depth) mounted on a hoistable mast and containing several short-range Mistral missiles that can be fired from periscope depth.

http://youtu.be/gJZf7scDnQ0

Underwater vehicle version: Comprises a torpedo-like capsule containing a medium-range (20 km) Mica missile that is tube-launchable at any depth. The capsule is similar to the type developed for submarine-launched Exocet anti-ship missiles.

Source:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=714

 

[Jemiba]

The mast version isn't very different from SLAM, proposed and tested around 1974. So, there
actually was an alternative for just fleeing and hiding, but it seems not to have been considered
worthwhile. Maybe because at least the mast mounted version gives away the subs position, when
it needs stealth more, than every thing else. And a shot launched from a torpedo tube probably
isn't that much better.
(for SLAM see http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1722.0/highlight,blowpipe.html )

 

[Useful Dave]

The Mica variant is pretty much IDAS, then?

 

[Odysseus1980]

In general layout indeed. An anti-aircraft missile launched by torpedo tube from a submarine. But MICA has IR guidance, while IDAS is optic fibre guidance.

Here is a link for IDAS

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/05/update-on-idas-submarine-launched-missile-with-tkms/

 

[Odysseus1980]

https://en.topwar.ru/amp/160189-pod...i-kovarnyj-ohotnik-s-vozmozhnostjami-pvo.html
Here there is a link of the DCNS A3SM showing the container of the MICA missile. And this photo is into the link. Probably holds a single missile.

 

[Scott Kenny]

In general, the best option for a submarine is to get deep and run away from any MPA. So the only place where it would be a reasonable tactical option for a submarine to shoot at MPAs and absolutely confirm its presence is in a situation where the sub cannot run away. Shallow water with lots of islands around. Like the Baltic Sea, North Sea/Dogger Bank, the chunks of the Bay of Biscay close to France, etc.

So for a European submarine typically operating in coastal waters, it makes sense to consider the idea.

I know that after being trapped under what felt like every P-3 in the Pacific ocean one exercise I wanted to shoot back! (I still flinch hard every time I hear a 68hz P3/C130 roar, and that was one time more than 20 years ago!)

https://en.topwar.ru/amp/160189-pod...i-kovarnyj-ohotnik-s-vozmozhnostjami-pvo.html
Here there is a link of the DCNS A3SM showing the container of the MICA missile. And this photo is into the link. Probably holds a single missile.

I agree that the description does suggest a single missile inside the capsule. That said, MICAs are roughly sidewinder-sized, I think it'd be possible to pack 4 of them into a 21" tube. And a tiny launch capsule would be a lot better for purposes of magazine capacity than having 2x SubMICA per heavyweight torpedo stow.

 

[Grey Havoc]

In general, the best option for a submarine is to get deep and run away from any MPA. So the only place where it would be a reasonable tactical option for a submarine to shoot at MPAs and absolutely confirm its presence is in a situation where the sub cannot run away. Shallow water with lots of islands around. Like the Baltic Sea, North Sea/Dogger Bank, the chunks of the Bay of Biscay close to France, etc.

I would have to disagree with that at least partially. There will always be scenarios where a sub has to engage a MPA or anti-submarine helicopter even in open / deep water. Whether because the enemy aircraft endangers the mission (e.g. a time critical extraction or recovery) or because the destruction of or a mission kill on said aircraft is the mission. And it would not just ASW aircraft that a sub might be expected to interdict. Buoy launched missiles and the like would reduce the submarine's exposure compared to direct launch missiles though both broad categories would have their place.

 

[timmymagic]

I would have to disagree with that at least partially. There will always be scenarios where a sub has to engage a MPA or anti-submarine helicopter even in open / deep water. Whether because the enemy aircraft endangers the mission (e.g. a time critical extraction or recovery) or because the destruction of or a mission kill on said aircraft is the mission. And it would not just ASW aircraft that a sub might be expected to interdict. Buoy launched missiles and the like would reduce the submarine's exposure compared to direct launch missiles though both broad categories would have their place.

I'd agree. I could well see something like the Blackwing UAS (a derivative of Switcblade) being used as an anti ASW helo weapon...its fired out of the countermeasure tubes and pops to the surface and releases the drone. Quite discretely as well....With some Machine Learning/AI it could identify a helo quite easily and engage. Anything that makes an ASW helo nervous around a contact is a good thing...

 

[Odysseus1980]

MICA is a small missile, but larger than Sidewinder (dimensions 3.1 m long, 16 cm diameter and 56 cm wingspan). Each Sylver VLS cell contains one MICA. Inner size cell is 60 centimetres (24 in) long and 56 cm (22 in) wide. There was a quad pack Crotale NG VT1 container, although this missile didn't go anywhere. VT1 wingspan is only 2 cm smaller than MICA's, I am not sure what can be done.