US Navy 6th Gen Fighter - F/A-XX

Scott Kenny said:
You are aware that a 16" HE shell only had 154lbs of HE as the bursting charge, right?
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It had 2000lb of steel - splinters, including thick rear/frontal slugs weighting hundreds of kgs.

But yes, in both postwar evaluations of Japan bombardment, as well as multiple single (unfollowed) hits on light ships during ww2 - effects could be sometimes quite underwhelming.
 
Ainen said:
It had 2000lb of steel - splinters, including thick rear/frontal slugs weighting hundreds of kgs.

But yes, in both postwar evaluations of Japan bombardment, as well as multiple single (unfollowed) hits on light ships during ww2 - effects could be sometimes quite underwhelming.
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Only about 1750lbs of steel. (1900-155=1745)

But yes, the KE of something impacting at 1500ish FPS (~450mps) was a not-insignificant part of the effect of ye olde 16" HC shell. It's likely why the LRASM has a 1000lb titanium SAP warhead with more HE than a 16" HC shell. It's also why Talos and Standard have such devastatingly effective impact on unarmored ships.
 
In the case of LRASM, it just inherited the WDU-36 from AGM-158B, which was designed for bunker busting. It probably is pretty pointless from an anti ship point of view; I suspect a lot of the weight separates as a single chunk in the nose and titanium is not the cheapest way to general a frag pattern. I am guessing that the 158C3 ER version buys the range back by just using Harpoons warhead, or something similar. I am guessing that is why it will be AShCM only with no land attack capability.
 
Josh_TN said:
It also took dozens of bombers to bomb a single factory in WWII. I wonder if that has changed?
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If the measurement is "hitting the target", it hasn't, unless 8" shells have suddenly become 10x more capable or something (they haven't).
 
I feel like at this point the USN should just build a new US-sourced fighter with modular, off-the-shelf tech and not compromise the growth of its naval fleet or industrial base by going after another expensive, expendable toy. It can still be CCA-centric but culturally, the DOD & Congress need to learn to come down from the opulence and focus on sustainability. Most people are completely in the dark over how vulnerable DOD supply chains are and how quick the US military can come to a halt when the raw materials & parts stop coming in from overseas.
 
Reddington777 said:
What makes Hegseth let alone Trump himself think they know better than the people who are doing the fighting?
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To be fair, neither USN nor NAVAIR have much of a reputation in executing anything nowadays.
But whatever the case, F/A-XX is protected from DoW. Secretprojects victory!
 
dark sidius said:
This time it will move on...
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Apparently not, while saying in the fact sheet accompanying the NDAA by the House Armed Services Committee that the spending act would provide "Full funding for the Air Force’s F-47 and Navy’s F/A-XX 6th Generation Aircraft programs", the actual text of the act they submitted still only has $76m of funding for F/A-XX, Breaking Defense have updated their article.
 
given the public knowledge about both NGAD, NJAD (soft G), and all three major primes efforts - this thread does feel like a massively parallel, shared hallucination about what should or could the future of US naval aviation should look like - according to the poster.

F/A-XX is real, is doable and speaks with a St Louis accent - totally possible. Money and service tendencies are totally different. People are noticing and the navy doesnt have the Congressional suction is used to, certainly not the surface fleet or NAVAIR.
 
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Just watch. NAVAIR is going to do the ol' start construction before finalizing the design. Then sometime during DJT's third term, they are going to be like "oop heres the trophy boy program for egregious tax dollar wasting" and then cut it right when the design is about to get finalized. Instead, LM pushes out F-35 super ferrari but it still has cooling issues and not enough range. Hornets flying only because in this timeline duct tape and super glue have innovated faster than LM can put out upgrades and lo and behold another decade of pointing fingers, new promises made, new RFI released and we start the cycle all over again.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At this point the Indian navy is doin better
 
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Reddington777 said:
Then sometime during DJT's third term
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That will NOT happen due to it being a) unconstitutional hence illegal b) since he was sworn in on January 20, 2025 he has rapidly deteriorate both mentally and physically, assuming he's still alive on January 2029 and hasn't been removed from office under the 25th Amendment he will NOT be compos mentis.
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Reddington777 said:
Instead, LM pushes out F-35 super ferrari but it still has cooling issues and not enough range.​
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What the F/A-XX needs to be is something new to basically fill in the F/A-18E/Fs role with no requirements creep and NO gold-plating, basically something good enough to do the job.​
 
NMaude said:
That will NOT happen due to it being a) unconstitutional hence illegal b) since he was sworn in on January 20, 2025 he has rapidly deteriorate both mentally and physically, assuming he's still alive on January 2029 and hasn't been removed from office under the 25th Amendment he will NOT be compos mentis.



What the F/A-XX needs to be is something new to basically fill in the F/A-18E/Fs role with no requirements creep and NO gold-plating, basically something good enough to do the job.​
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Sorry I should have added /s. I was making a frustrated joke
 
Forest Green said:

In Limbo F/A-XX Naval Fighter Gets ‘Full Funding’ Nod From Congress, But There’s A Catch (Updated)​

www.twz.com

In Limbo F/A-XX Naval Fighter Gets 'Full Funding' Nod From Congress, But There's A Catch (Updated)

The Pentagon had wanted to put F/A-XX on ice to prioritize the USAF's new F-47 fighter, causing concerns due to the looming China threat.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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Status Quo is still here , it will be a enormous failure for the Naval Aviation in a time of China is flying 2 6th gen demonstrators.
 
jymp said:
Lobbyists people, lobbyists.
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Not in this case.

Hegseth is relying on the strong opinions of this ally. https://www.cape.osd.mil/about He is 'yessing' everyone else.

Not much more complicated than that ... except, if Payne et al think carriers are not for peer/near-peer conflicts then 'why' are they continuing to fund new Ford-class carriers (Enterprise, Miller, Clinton)? Or is this a question of 'when' that shoe drops?
 
Lobbyists still lobby Congress which under Johnson is powerless to do anything Trump does not want without a discharge petition. It would take NG or Boeing bribing Trump to get the FA-XX awarded.
 
allendoc said:
I assume this just keeps the program alive at the two down select candidates, maybe next year kind of thing?
visegradpost.com

Congress Challenges Navy with Minimal F/A-XX Support, Fully Backs Air Force’s F-47: Strategic Priorities Shift

The ongoing debate in Congress over defense spending priorities shines a spotlight on the future of the U.S. military's air capabilities. The latest National
visegradpost.com visegradpost.com
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I think there will be a lot more than this needed if you want to keep the two teams staffed and performing during this waiting phase. The Air Force did this for like six to eight months as Kendall had RAND look at the future path for NGAD. But I'm not sure how much, if any, dollars for FAXX are/were included in the reconciliation funds.

I agree with joewee that this is an OSD hold up. This is consistent with everything that's been reported on the program. If so, then we are really at a stand still here...either OSD gives in and let's the Navy pursue the program, or we wait for changes at the OSD (we did go through four to five acting/confirmed secretaries of defense in the first Trump term).
 
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Any thoughts this could be a front to indicate struggle but then a sudden announcement like the F-47? I mean I felt the future was super uncertain and then in a 2-3 day period we magically had an F-47 with multiple "images".
 
The justification to give room for F-47 accelerated development is also curious. Having two programs that are run in parallel would have provided tiers one and subcontractors down the chain a leverage when negotiating their participation, hence ensure the long term sustainment of the manufacturing base, so dearly spoke in words by this administration.*
But don´t be mistaken, the same actions result in the same effects. When Boeing became the unchallenged airliner manufacturer in the US, it wreaked havoc on US suppliers.

If you are way down the line in the manufacturing chain and somehow was cornered to work exclusively for the Mil industry, brace yourself for the tidal wave of meager profits and carnage of consolidations.

*not concluding here that there is any hidden intend doing so
 
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joewee said:
Not in this case.

Hegseth is relying on the strong opinions of this ally. https://www.cape.osd.mil/about He is 'yessing' everyone else.

Not much more complicated than that ... except, if Payne et al think carriers are not for peer/near-peer conflicts then 'why' are they continuing to fund new Ford-class carriers (Enterprise, Miller, Clinton)? Or is this a question of 'when' that shoe drops?
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It would make sense why Trump used executive power to move away from Electromagnetic catapults and back to steam. Why waste the R&D on something that they gonna scale back. Ford-class will carrry on no matter what if anything for jobs but not all the original 7 (or was it 9?) technologies that would come with it, which EMALS is part of.

It's far fetched and hopefully stay that way.
 
EMALS are supposed to be less violent to the fighter when they are shot off the carrier deck going back to steam catapults after spending over a billion dollars on research I would think that it would be a step backwards for the US Navy since China has developed their own EMALS system for the Fujian carrier.
 
FighterJock said:
EMALS are supposed to be less violent to the fighter when they are shot off the carrier deck going back to steam catapults after spending over a billion dollars on research I would think that it would be a step backwards for the US Navy since China has developed their own EMALS system for the Fujian carrier.
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The decision is independent of what China is doing. As per the POTUS announcement, we are going back to steam. Congress could block this by not providing a single dollar to modify the existing ford class design, and future ships, to go back to steam catapults (thus effectively making this DOA), but based on what we know there is a presidential executive order in the works ordering the Navy to go back to steam.
 
donnage99 said:
It would make sense why Trump used executive power to move away from Electromagnetic catapults and back to steam. Why waste the R&D on something that they gonna scale back. Ford-class will carrry on no matter what if anything for jobs but not all the original 7 (or was it 9?) technologies that would come with it, which EMALS is part of.

It's far fetched and hopefully stay that way.
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No, moving back to steam makes no sense at all. Cancellation of CVN production would at least be internally consistent with the logic that CVNs are too vulnerable; total redesign of Ford and rebuild of the existing ship(s) is batshit crazy.
 
FighterJock said:
Let's wait and see what the US Congress makes of Trumps decision to go back to steam bring_it_on, as far as I am concerned it makes no sense at all since the Ford is already in service and the next carrier the USS Kennedy is already complete and working up to testing.
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I don't agree going back to steam is the way to go but I understand the frustration that carrier construction is well behind schedule which means the oldest carriers must remain in the fleet longer.
 
bring_it_on said:
The decision is independent of what China is doing. As per the POTUS announcement, we are going back to steam. Congress could block this by not providing a single dollar to modify the existing ford class design, and future ships, to go back to steam catapults (thus effectively making this DOA), but based on what we know there is a presidential executive order in the works ordering the Navy to go back to steam.
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i still don't see it happening. I can't imagine the expense of a redesign at this point, let alone ripping them out of at least two carriers and replacing them (and all their systems) with steam.
 
Jimmo952 said:
I don't agree going back to steam is the way to go but I understand the frustration that carrier construction is well behind schedule which means the oldest carriers must remain in the fleet longer.
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dicking around with the design is not consistent with making carriers faster
 
There are many upsides to EMALS which the most obvious is to tailor its shuttle profile to the A/Cs calculated TOW. There are others.

There are downsides too, the three biggest are its new, its complex and steam cats are incredibly well understood from an operational level, which alone is a powerful argument for the incumbent (steam) as the baseline technology. That said, the US needs to see through teething issues of complex systems with patience, education, transparency - esp the ones that don’t fit into the Golden Dome halo. EMALs vs steam is just a subquestion of the relevancy of CSGs in modern high end fights given the proliferation of potent ASMs.

What would be really sad, and very on-type for the USN, is if they decided to design a new steam catapult system that has all of the downsides of both with few of the upsides of either.

At the end of the day the overall stench seems to suggests a US DOW that wants to telegraph its intentions to address a WESTPAC peer fight with new missiles, NGS/NGAD FoS and space-based sensors & effectors, with the Army and Navy relegated to Guam defense and cosplaying Pirates of the Caribbean.
 

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