The Engineering/ CS/ Aerospace Human Resources Problem

[Reddington777]

I can't even count how many undeserving doctors, lawyers and MBA/finance people I know who were hell bent on doing those jobs since high school. I don't know a single aerospace engineer much less a maritime architect. People these days love to manage, to make money from money, and to feel like they are doing something worthwhile instead of actually pursuing jobs producing tangible, useful things. A lot of these jobs are created by a market full of redundancy, disconnect and bureaucracy, and if these were eliminated, half this country would lose their jobs (and arguably, many of these middle management people would find their best use doing menial tasks in a factory if it weren't for their extraordinary ability to bullshit).

A rant I posted elsewhere that probably shouldn't have been posted, but I couldn't help myself. I'll be really really surprised if this doesn't get immediately removed also.

But since I'm always angry and @Training_Dummy finds this topic interesting here goes...

In addition to what I said above, I find my generation (and younger) of people seem to have an extremely deep seated desire for vanity - for jobs that provide them with affirmation, that are completely unproductive especially when done for the wrong reasons. I don't know maybe the older people can attest to the same about their own generation too, but from what I can remember, people wanted to go for those jobs that granted the wealth and status - as portrayed by the media people consume. This is combined with the abject failure of trying to make STEM appealing to young people from the perspective of people who just didn't understand young people.

I can't even blame them, because it's true - healthcare pays boatloads because every time I go see the doctor, the doctor knows goddamn nothing, but the billing department knows goddamn everything - even the care I didn't receive. Bankers, financiers, accountants cry day in and day out because engineering and development costs money but they somehow earn more than the engineers, fly everywhere and stay in the best hotels and have company get-togethers that could probably hire an additional dev or engineer per year. Salesmen, middle/upper management will write everything and anything to the company bill - stuff like riding a fucking limousine from the airport when there's uber and taxiis aplenty. If it wasn't because these people could verbally polish a turd into gold, the only work they'd be fit to do is to be a urinal cake in a truck stop. But no - it's the devs and the software people that need to get paid less. It's the blue collar nobodies that need to get paid less and have their benefits cut.

As some of you may know, I'm Chinese enough to read speak and write it. My impression of China from what time I've spent living and working there was that people might not be after different things per se nor does blue collar work fare much better, but no matter where you go, efficiency is the name of the game. I'll even say that the overall software / engineering environment there isn't terribly different from here either. Afterall - when you need to push out real and tangible work, there's only so many ways you can do something efficiently. But at the management level, speed and efficiency is the name of the game. Managers are always cracking the whip trying to deliver results because for any given job, there's about 100 people lined up outside the door with equal or more experience than you, and ready to work longer hours for less pay. Financiers and accountants aren't the one making decisions. The acceptable risks in investments come in faster, in larger quantities for longer time periods from the government. There's no "hey we have this idea but lets wait for two months and have forty meetings about it before we implement it". There's no "hey we started this project but we cut it because congressmen dumbass or president jackass thinks its too costly". It may or may not be fun living in a country like that, but goddamn do they get things done.

Here in the US, everything is always "about to change" and people are always "meeting with stakeholders for the change" but when does the change actually happen (with the exception of a handful of highly successful companies, whose workers are certainly much more hardworking than normal). I graduated high school when GTA5 was released and I'm in my 30's now but GTA6 is nowhere to be seen. Ask any immigrant in America and they'll tell you that americans (with many exceptions ofcourse) are lazy and all they do is complain. Need a new mine for rare earth metals? protest and riots. Want us to work a little harder? we're going on strike. I happen to live in a pretty young city and you can guess I have no friends. It's okay. I can't stand them anyway. All I ever hear them talk about in get togethers is inane bullshit about anti capitalism, about having to work extra hours without over time at their nonprofit startup helping people who don't want to be helped, about "sticking it to the man", or about how the government is taking away your rights and the military is fascism. It's not even politically affiliated either. Jesus christ I'll go home and jerk off instead thanks.

In all seriousness, defense companies or not things move too slow here. If we're talking waste, it's more often than not everyone else but the RD&E people and the production line workers. That's the culture that needs to change. As a society, as the government, as companies, we really ought to stop rewarding the middlemen - whether that be middle management, financiers and accountants, politicians, marketeers, salesmen, lobbyists or their lawyers. We should really stop rewarding startups, companies and entire professions that feed off the disconnect between government and various actors in industry. Start paying more the people closest to the RD&E. Start exalting them in the messaging and media. Exalt the people who deserve to be exalted instead of pushing bullshit individualism and individual achievement on kids. Stop telling people they can be a leader because most of them can't and they suck if they tried. Leave the leading to people who earned it through their qualifications. Reform education and foster individual competition. It's hard but really it's not that hard.

It's almost depressing to talk to people my age. Why should I care so much when nobody else seems to give a damn??

 

[publiusr]

Lots of distractions here. I seem to remember that the individual who designed the Verity weld analysis worked in the field all day--and hit the books at night.

I have often wondered---back in the parchment and powdered wig days--that things were advanced enough for study, but slow enough to have time to study.

A sweet spot?

 

[IndustrialWeaponeer]

I am from the generation as you - I'm 38. You are not alone in these frustrations, not by a long shot. Making money by manipulation of money or stock prospecting is something I view with utter disgust. It's also something we have to get over if we want any security in our lives, as you pointed out those who actually invent / produce / do real work are always the ones getting screwed. I do not believe you are special because you're you, or that anyone deserves a ribbon for coming in 17th place. That's not what we should be teaching children and it does them a gross disservice when the real world hits them like a full contact boxing match with a commuter train. Want to be special, want to be somebody? Go forth and ACHIEVE THINGS. BUILD THINGS.

The meeting with stakeholders for change comment hit home - I deal with the same bullshit on a regular basis. There seems to be a gigantic problem in companies in the last couple generations of how leaders are selected. 9/10 people are not leaders and will generally cause damage and chaos when put in such positions as they are unsuited for them. Leaders are born - its a function of personality, not something you can train or synthesize. You can train managers, sure, but Managers != Leaders.

I'll limit my reply to this and just to let you know you're not the only one disgusted with all of the aforementioned nonsense in the working world and with the attitude-behavior of many people close to this age.

Cheers,
IW

 

[EmoBirb]

I'm significantly younger, so I haven't experienced much of the terrible stuff yet myself. Though I have heard about it to be honest.

Now, I study aerospace engineering and I have to admit that I never made myself some grand illusions with regards to payment, especially with regards to my first years. As long as I'm able to secure a decently stable livelihood I'm not concerned, as I don't really have to indulge in many luxuries to satisfy myself on a personal level.

What caught my attention was this though:

This is combined with the abject failure of trying to make STEM appealing to young people from the perspective of people who just didn't understand young people.

It's 100% true. Out of my former class, I'm one of two people who pursued to study in an engineering field afterwards, and the only woman who made that decision. We were 24 people in total, so the picture is pretty clear. What were popular choices? Law, medicine, commercial and business oriented carrers, management, finance. I personally even nudged my own girlfriend to pursue a career in the insurance sector because it's not particularly demanding and she'll get good money out of it (she's difficult to motivate in the first place). Which is kinda the whole issue I suppose? The most popular stuff is what brings in plenty of money with minimal effort. This is great on a personal level, surely, but if the whole economy slowly shifts to reflect that and these ultimately less important jobs become the high paying, people magnets, it leaves the serious fields lacking and open to be overtaken by foreign competition.

Intellectually or physically demanding work is unattractive in the west at large, more so than in the east, although even there people prefer to fill jobs like sales management rather than product design. And then you get people here who wonder why everything tech related these days is sourced from China or Korea. Why the chinese are churning out ships for the world and the Koreans are increasingly undercutting European automotive manufacturers without having to deal with the stigma associated with their Chinese competitors. Why more and more phones are Chinese, or if you have too much money to spent from Samsung (or Apple, produced in China obviously). Ultimately the minimal work, maximum pay way of life is highly encouraged in western service based economies.

And admittedly, if I wouldn't have been exposed to the concept of engineering through my own father, I'm unsure if I would have pursued this line of work on my own. Nobody out there presents engineering as something appealing or something worthwhile. The best job do silly tiktok edits glazing morally dubious military industrial contractors like Lockheed Martin and documentaries about all sorts of heavy mechanical equipment or the engineering behind famous or impressive buildings. But when it comes to schools or society at large? Nobody seriously tries to motivate people to even consider STEM. Buzzwords are thrown around, in advertisements, but reality will ultimately disappoint. The lacking pay compared to less demanding jobs and the complete failure to represent STEM in the wider social subconscious really took their toll on the sector here I think.

And this country (Germany) used to be synonymous with engineering...

 

[Reddington777]

Lots of distractions here. I seem to remember that the individual who designed the Verity weld analysis worked in the field all day--and hit the books at night.

Thats how young people and all people should be. I used to spend so much time debating people on reddit and irl but at a certain point I realized that these people were all talk. If I really wanted to do something about all this, I should just start doing stuff. Start studying, add new skills that might help me be part of the solution.

I wont ever forget the energy of some of the people on a Beijing subway at 4 am - even that early im the morning, they were reading English books and studying english. We were jam packed back to back hustling ti our jobs. Thats how young people should be - hard working, uncomplaining. I dont know what happened to the idea of earning your keep. Nowadays they just sit and demand people to respect them, to tell them they are worth something. And complain when told to work harder.


People are unhappy because they choose the wrong people to compare themselves to. If you choose to surround yourself with people who hustle and hustle hard, you are bouyed by that energy. If you choose to surround yourself with the self absorbed people working their sinecures for their own vanity and self proclaimed virtue, you naturally will become unhappy.

I am from the generation as you - I'm 38. You are not alone in these frustrations, not by a long shot.

Thank you sincerely. I appreciate the kind words. I dont want to be like kids these days are too damn soft, but thats the vibe I get. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody wants to shoulder burden. They will instead hide behind all kinds of self proclaimed and circumstantial reasons not to - whether its on the job or in their private relationships. You know what's hilarious? In the city Im at, I keep seeing the women around me exhibit all sorts of mature behavior while the man boys and finance bros will blame anyone but themselves while thinking they are the big tough strong boyos who do no wrong.

Its that kind of culture that breeds risk aversion too - nobody wants to shoulder blame or responsibility so everyone chooses the safe path forward. In some cases, those who do shoulder responsibility arent given chances to become better but are then scapgoated and axed along with the program they manage. Thats certainly not how the USN trained its destroyer captains in WWII.

As long as I'm able to secure a decently stable livelihood I'm not concerned, as I don't really have to indulge in many luxuries to satisfy myself on a personal level.

Same here. Nothing makes me happier than if I could work in defense. As long as I have enough to raise kids and a family in a small town, im okay. Id gladly work overtime and rush deadlines with no extra pay if it means the hardware can reach soldiers earlier.

the whole economy slowly shifts to reflect that and these ultimately less important jobs become the high paying, people magnets, it leaves the serious fields lacking and open to be overtaken by foreign competition.

Intellectually or physically demanding work is unattractive in the west at large, more so than in the east, although even there people prefer to fill jobs like sales management rather than product design.

And admittedly, if I wouldn't have been exposed to the concept of engineering through my own father, I'm unsure if I would have pursued this line of work on my own.

Ironically my dad was an engineer and thinking back, I would have loved engineering but he, a chinese engineer who graduated from a top university in China, told me he hates his job and hoped for me to be in management so yeah you are absolutely right. Cant blame people for following the money. Can only blame people who created such a system. The only reason I went back to try more intellectually challenging shit was because ... well when I think back to my grandfather, a historian and a scholar, and my father, with his flashy top university degree, I feel a strong urge to not be a goddamn disappointment lol.

Nobody out there presents engineering as something appealing or something worthwhile.

Imagine if Oppenheimer and enigma had focused on the urgency of the situation and the actual endeavors of great scientist instead of some virtue signaling bullshit about morality.

People might follow money, but its hard to explain why so many of these idiots i know work in social work. Clearly, people are also driven by their beliefs. Unfortunately, whether its traditional education or media, if you've been led to beleive that your country and government is evil and doing jobs working on weapons and aircraft is supporting said evil, then they still wouldnt consider it. Added to that, people who's see this stuff in the media also always think these fields are for nutjobs and one off geniuses whereas the rest of the professions are over represented by your average people. Its like some kind of psychosis has washed over society.

People spend their time reading self help books but maybe someone should actually teach westerners about the Qin dynasty conquest of China. Like it or not, the reward system of the early Qin state laid the ground truth for greta power competition and for what builds a powerful nation and its for the same reason China is what it is now. That ground truth is neither moral, comfortable, peaceful or bloodless but no great power competition can escape it.

 

[martinbayer]

Based on my own life experience as a late boomer generation German aerospace engineer working at Boeing, my recommendation is just put yourself out in the job marketplace like a bat out of hell. You gotta play the game, but it never hurts to think and act outside the box. Don't be afraid to punch *way* above your comfort level - most companies appreciate assertiveness, and if they don't, they weren't a good fit anyway.

 

[Reddington777]

In a more positive and less doom and gloomy way, I once got a tuition grant where in the application, one of the essays was asking what I would do to promote CS to get more native US born people to pursue CS and CS PhDs.

In my pre medical and healthcare days, I remember reading a paper from a professor regarding how she planned on promoting western medicine based preventative care to minority groups traditionally resistant and skeptical of western medicine. The framework she gave is broadly applicable to the problem at hand.

1. Identify blockers and hinderences and get to know and understand people's behaviors.

If people think engineering is for geniuses and un reachable for normal people then they likely wont even consider studying for it.

If people arent adequately compensated for their work, then obviously this takes away incentive.

If people are led to beleive that participating in these fields is against their morals, then they will not only avoid it but also vote against your interests. NASA is one of the few government entities that has largely avoided this stigma despite so much defense aerospace stuff is based off their research.

2. Identify and work with stakeholders

Government. Time to reform education and exert pressure both within and outside government to value production rather than management.

Industry. In addition to cutting management and paying those closest the the R&D/P, they can take a far greater role in primary education. You can hate the government all you want but if a goddamn apache lands in your school yard, you arent gonna not be awed by that. Host events, have engineers build things with students. Any number of things where students can actually see what can be built with ehat they learned in school and can be led on projects to build flyable deliverables will instill great interest and confidence in them.

Media / journalism / Hollywood. Maybe start portraying less individualism and maybe start portraying how normal these engineers and scientists can be and make them appear much more approachable to average people than one off wonders. I shit on Engima a lot but I think it did a great job illustrating the urgency and importance of Turings work. Even interstellar wasnt too bad - some redneck hick ass farmer dude turned out to be a former NASA guy or something. Even breaking bad almost had it - walter white used to be a leading chemist at Sandia National laboratory. He makes chemistry look baddass.

Higher education. It wasnt until after I graduated did I come to find out from other people that our school pioneered a lot of the tech for the EODAS on the F-35s, or that we owned our own fighter jets that flight test new sensors and algorithms. The school year after year spends millions promoting healthcare and trying to earn money for its hospitals while math, CS and engineering still share to same goddamn building.

3. Break these behaviors by severe their feedback loop that leads to said undesirable behavior and or showing them using their way of thinking.

Companies and government ought to spend far greater effort to host the kind of after-school activities and competition programs for stuff like rocketry and aircraft in the same way they do for robotics.

For the military implications of these topics, downplay the political aspects of it. Play up the technical aspects and civilian applications. You can even shift blame onto politicians who choose to use arms in ways that it wasnt meant to be used. If you can make that divorce for the youth, they may well disassociate aerospace engineering with the amoral shit they see on TV.

Show kids step by step that what they learn in school isnt out of touch with reality, and that it can be readily applied to produce tangible results. Drones, RC aircraft, 3d printed RC boats are a thing now and fairly easily accessible. Show kids that they can build this stuff as normal people.

Video games are such an awesome tool to get kids excited. Ace combat, war thunder, DCS, RC planes. It was modding age of empires that got me to quit pre medical and learn programming. It was modding mount and blade warband that got me to learn 3d modeling. You can cultivate interest by approaching it from a kids perspective.

Ultimately, I think that it shouldnt be hard for government and friends to figure this out if they were grounded in reality and actually gave a damn.

 

[Reddington777]

Based on my own life experience as a late boomer generation German aerospace engineer working at Boeing, my recommendation is just put yourself out in the job marketplace like a bat out of hell.

Thanks and that's sorta my plan. I dont have a formal backgeound in aerospace, but im gonna start with the jobs that are more software development first to get my foot in the door. It would be awesome to be working on simulation software...

 

[EmoBirb]

@Reddington777 admittedly though, while it's certainly normal to hold admiration for the working spirit present in many parts of East Asia, I wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying it's something to aspire to. At least not in a one-to-one kind of way. I know several people who study in China, Japan, Indonesia and Singapore and what they have to endure to get a shot at a decent career is soul crushing. Spending most of the day studying with little free time, motivated less so by the own desire to succeed and more so social and family pressure to avoid becoming a "failure" in the eyes of the masses. It's not something I'd want to deal with, despite me having the willingness to dedicate much of my free time to studying and reading up on things that may interest me or are related to my field of study.

There needs to be a middle ground where hard work is genuinely rewarded and becoming a simple cog in the larger economic machine. A middle ground between parasitic middle manager and desk office wage slave.

So while I respect the hard working attitude myself, I think what's currently seen in many parts of East and South East Asia is not sustainable in the long term. My mother, God bless her, was from South Korea and I'm more than thankful that I never ended up in that part of the world, simply hearing what students there have to endure is humbling and the social pressure is pure insanity in that broken country. So while I occasionally look with disdain at how some people here in Germany can earn stupid amounts of money for contributing little to their employer, or how STEM is being heavily neglected, or how my generation tends to not aim high with regards to their plans for the future, I'll take this over 90% of the world. Because while I can dedicate much of my time to my studies, it still leaves me with plenty of time to spent with my couple friends and my loved ones, which I'd argue makes me emotionally much more resilient. Something that's only useful when one has to deal with other people in the world outside of that small circle.

As for younger people, or people your age having objections with regards to the Military Industrial Complex, I wouldn't say it's purely idealistic or driven by political ideology. I for one have made the decision very early that I don't want to pursue work in the military aviation sector, simply because it would be incompatible with my personal understanding of my own moral obligation. I don't blame anyone who works in the field and I find it very interesting and spend plenty of time, as is evident here, with reading about and discussing military developments and engineering related to the matter. Ultimately I don't think it's unreasonable or not normal to hold a distance to the matter. And in the west especially the GWOT debacle ruined the perception of the military, the government and military industrial complex. And to a degree deservedly so, if I'm honest. I don't think if someone works for Raytheon for example they should expect laurels, but they're also not murderers either. These people are ultimately employees, providers and contractors.

 

[publiusr]

I wont ever forget the energy of some of the people on a Beijing subway at 4 am - even that early in the morning, they were reading English books and studying english. We were jam packed back to back hustling ti our jobs. Thats how young people should be - hard working, uncomplaining.

Ironically my dad was an engineer and thinking back, I would have loved engineering but he, a chinese engineer who graduated from a top university in China, told me he hates his job and hoped for me to be in management

Your Dad just didn't want you to be mistreated. That and he didn't want you to struggle---but that is life.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

People were told to "learn to code" by off-shoring Ayn Rand types and those who wanted to shutter mines. Neither management nor protestors actually DO anything. Let all the linemen disappear though--right after a storm? Big problems. I have said that anti-living wage corporate apologists and Greens both look at their fellow human beings as a problem, rather than a resource. Grousing about payroll this and carbon-footprint that has just soured folks.

There is contempt for actual work:
https://mikerowe.com/2013/08/why-wo...dvice-in-the-world-popular-mechanics-article/

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1ifrmu/mike_rowe_with_the_poster_his_guidance_counselor

These guys are something to behold

My Dad...bless him...he was a simple father in Alabama. He, like a lot of elderly people were victimized by home repair rip-offs. I built up card debt from my own car repair issues--helped pay for my parents medicine...looked after him and my Mom. In America, morality keeps you poor it seems.
I had a friend who just couldn't stand his father--an alcoholic unlike mine. He had no ties and did well.

When I put my father in the ground, I talked to a fellow deacon of his, about how a lot of elderly folks were victimized. He said that my Dad just couldn't believe anyone could hurt him. Once, he rolled a riding lawnmower down the hill one day. He had shown up for a church workday when no one else did. Scammers always seemed to know when I was away. He paid full price for vinyl siding to go on the eaves of his brick home...like if the whole house were covered in vinyl. Sometimes--small businessmen are THE worst.

If you ever had to get a car fixed several times and it is still torn up---that's a small businessman

People might follow money, but its hard to explain why so many of these idiots i know work in social work.. Its like some kind of psychosis has washed over society.

The only group in Washington D.C. that are any good are the No Labels/Problem Solvers guys who have no use for -ists or -isms.

An interesting find
https://hackaday.com/2025/11/03/rep...t-chinese-keyboard-based-mingkwai-typewriter/

 

[Airbus A340]

For anyone interested in this topic here are some things to look at:

1. Pournelle's Iron law of Bureaucracy. Not his exact words but it says that in any organization there are two kinds of people. Those who work for the goals of the organization and those who work for the organization itself. It is left as an exercise to the reader to infer who rises to the top of the organization.

2. David Graeber's book titled "Bull---- Jobs." Graeber explains why people who do nothing prosper over those who do stuff.

Edit: Fixed the typo

 

[tychosis]

Holy crap. I'm in my 50s and some of you guys sound like bigger boomers than I do haha.

Fact is, people are animals--and the average animal is going to want the most return for the least work. That's just nature. There's no point in raging against it.

Some of us are wired to see a job done well as its own reward. I went into sonar engineering because I'd spent my youth working with it and saw that I had the talent to contribute. I could at least do my small part in improving the things I found annoying. I enjoy what I do and I'm challenged by what I do every single day.

A lot of people don't want to be challenged, and whatever, that's fine. Worrying too much about what everyone else is doing will drive you to an early grave.

 

[DWG]

I for one have made the decision very early that I don't want to pursue work in the military aviation sector, simply because it would be incompatible with my personal understanding of my own moral obligation.

Oddly enough that's precisely the reason I did pursue work in the military aviation sector.

 

[Apophenia]

[Edit] Nevermind. Y'all have fun now ...

 

[Reddington777]

people who study in China, Japan, Indonesia and Singapore and what they have to endure to get a shot at a decent career is soul crushing.

There needs to be a middle ground where hard work is genuinely rewarded and becoming a simple cog in the larger economic machine. A middle ground between parasitic middle manager and desk office wage slave.

Yeah. No objections here really. I do acknowledge that I can be quite an extreme person but I do think striking a good balance is necessary too.

I think it's much much more important to get people to be interested rather than to force people to take up something - at least from the standpoint of the young and uninitiated. At the same time, it's equally important to reward the right people without necessarily crushing other people / professions etc.

how my generation tends to not aim high with regards to their plans for the future
...
GWOT debacle ruined the perception of the military, the government and military industrial complex.

It's a little better with the people I know motivation wise, but many of the smart people here want nothing to do with the military. I understand why people feel this way and I, admittedly, felt this way about 10ish years ago when I was still in college. However, I think as I struggled with this, I came to a different conclusion much later.

I don't think it's wrong to love your country and support your military - whether you are American, Chinese, or Russian or whatever. The military is like an axe in a shed - you should always keep it sharp and polished. It can be used to fell trees and build houses. It can be used to defend yourself and your family. At the same time, yes it can also be used to commit bloody murder. If one chooses to be an axe murderer, it's not the axe's fault nor is it the axe manufacturer's fault. It's those who hold the axe who are at fault. If one day a mountain lion comes to attack you but your axe is dull and unwieldy, you're too late. No amount of grinding and polishing is going to save your life.

I personally think the 20 years spent in the desert fighting the same people Moses fought was a great mistake, but the fact that Georgie decided to take that blunder is Georgie and Georgie's (and friends) fault.

 

[Sferrin]

A rant I posted elsewhere that probably shouldn't have been posted, but I couldn't help myself. I'll be really really surprised if this doesn't get immediately removed also.

But since I'm always angry and @Training_Dummy finds this topic interesting here goes...

In addition to what I said above, I find my generation (and younger) of people seem to have an extremely deep seated desire for vanity - for jobs that provide them with affirmation, that are completely unproductive especially when done for the wrong reasons. I don't know maybe the older people can attest to the same about their own generation too, but from what I can remember, people wanted to go for those jobs that granted the wealth and status - as portrayed by the media people consume. This is combined with the abject failure of trying to make STEM appealing to young people from the perspective of people who just didn't understand young people.

I can't even blame them, because it's true - healthcare pays boatloads because every time I go see the doctor, the doctor knows goddamn nothing, but the billing department knows goddamn everything - even the care I didn't receive. Bankers, financiers, accountants cry day in and day out because engineering and development costs money but they somehow earn more than the engineers, fly everywhere and stay in the best hotels and have company get-togethers that could probably hire an additional dev or engineer per year. Salesmen, middle/upper management will write everything and anything to the company bill - stuff like riding a fucking limousine from the airport when there's uber and taxiis aplenty. If it wasn't because these people could verbally polish a turd into gold, the only work they'd be fit to do is to be a urinal cake in a truck stop. But no - it's the devs and the software people that need to get paid less. It's the blue collar nobodies that need to get paid less and have their benefits cut.

As some of you may know, I'm Chinese enough to read speak and write it. My impression of China from what time I've spent living and working there was that people might not be after different things per se nor does blue collar work fare much better, but no matter where you go, efficiency is the name of the game. I'll even say that the overall software / engineering environment there isn't terribly different from here either. Afterall - when you need to push out real and tangible work, there's only so many ways you can do something efficiently. But at the management level, speed and efficiency is the name of the game. Managers are always cracking the whip trying to deliver results because for any given job, there's about 100 people lined up outside the door with equal or more experience than you, and ready to work longer hours for less pay. Financiers and accountants aren't the one making decisions. The acceptable risks in investments come in faster, in larger quantities for longer time periods from the government. There's no "hey we have this idea but lets wait for two months and have forty meetings about it before we implement it". There's no "hey we started this project but we cut it because congressmen dumbass or president jackass thinks its too costly". It may or may not be fun living in a country like that, but goddamn do they get things done.

I heard somewhere that many, if not most, of China's leadership are engineers and scientists. Most of ours are lawyers, professional politicians, or "soft science" types. When you see someone with actual accomplishment enter the field (Trump, Vivek Ramaswamy,etc.) it's almost an aberration. And our education system (such as it is) has failed utterly. Why be a tradesman when you can be an "influencer"? Why be self-sufficient when you can blame someone else for your failure? Why work hard when you can be a victim?

 

[Reddington777]

Your Dad just didn't want you to be mistreated. That and he didn't want you to struggle---but that is life.

Yeah, he wanted me to live an easy life and both he and my grandfather told me to stay away from anything political and to just earn as much money as I can, but I don't know what happened. I think at a certain point they and I knew that to make things happen requires sacrifice. They just didn't want their children to be the sacrifice.

I have said that anti-living wage corporate apologists and Greens both look at their fellow human beings as a problem, rather than a resource. Grousing about payroll this and carbon-footprint that has just soured folks.

Yep. There ought to be only one dividing line for humanity - those who work hard and are productive and those who are not. The rest - none of that matters.

He said that my Dad just couldn't believe anyone could hurt him.

Your father sounds like a really kind person.

I've heard this from my parents as well as from my girlfriend's parents - that you can feel society changing for the worst when it seems like no matter where you go, there are more and more people, companies, services waiting to take advantage of you.

My parents tell me when they first came to America, you could walk into a Walmart and every employee in there knew where something was. They would be extremely polite, greet you and help you find what you're looking for, and some chatter with you about your day. Nowadays, you'd be hardpressed to find anything like that save for a few small towns in Wisconsin. Ironically all the places that are so "open and accepting" are filled with cold shoulders and people who absolutely could not give less of a shit about anyone else (aka my city).

The only group in Washington D.C. that are any good are the No Labels/Problem Solvers guys who have no use for -ists or -isms.

Cannot agree more. Incredibly sick of partisan politics. I wish they could all be shot off to mars and leave the people who actually do work here on earth.

 

[Reddington777]

Holy crap. I'm in my 50s and some of you guys sound like bigger boomers than I do haha.

I'm sorry lol. I think I do give off old man vibes to the people around me. My favorite place in my city is a rinky dink plastic model shop where a bunch of old dudes hang out every saturday morning to talk about WWII tank models. The first time I met the owner he asked me if I was moving here, to which I answered yes, he then greeted me in Chinese (he was very very white) and told me to buy a gun because the goddamn city has been taken over by communists lol. Yet they've been nothing but kind to me whenever I go there. They might be off their rocker in some ways, but they've never given me a reason to think they are morons - unlike most of the kids running around this town.

I understand the complaints being voiced here about systems and corporations, officialdom and management. I sympathise with many of those complaints ... but I am not hearing any actual plan(s) to bring about the desired overall change.

Well I did give some ideas. I think there are a lot of things that even people on this forum can do in their own countries to help what seems to be a big problem in the west. I find it frustrating that many people are raising these concerns but those in charge have done absolutely nothing about it. Quite the contrary, there's a large segment of society who are outright against it.

Put another way, if change(s) in thinking is the goal, what are the means to that end? As presented here, I'm not seeing levers being identified which, when engaged, would make those changes in thinking happen.

In my above post (under my rant somewhere), I think there's three major levers here:

1. Education doesn't need to lie to us about history, but learning about it (in the US) really does lead you to become disillusioned when that's not how it should be. There are critical functions of government and society of which the military is one of them. It's a tool that needs maintenance, polishing and readying. Whether and how it gets used, as well as who is to blame is more or less entirely separate from the funding, preparation and support of it. But from preK to college, there is no discernment and no attempt to rectify people's misgivings about their history. It's for those reasons that I spent the first 22 years of my life also swearing off anything military related.

2. Fundamentally change the way we represent success in this country. You'd be surprised how many people think Wolf of Wallstreet is something to aspire to. Blind and selfish individualism is not only sustained but encouraged - from our education system to our social media, entertainment and politics. I hate to use the word "collectivism" but unity, egalitarianism and the virtue of being the average hard working person should instead be what is promoted from education to media.

3. Aerospace, defense and engineering companies should really do more to promote their professions. You might not believe me, but look at how successful healthcare has been in this respect. You've heard of premed, pre-nursing, pre-dentistry in undergraduate programs, but have you heard of pre-engineering? pre-aerospace? pre-computer science? You have Future Business Leaders of America (FBLA) in high school, various sports clubs, and even job shadowing for medical students and what not, but the only somewhat engineering and aerospace related afterschool activities is robotics and math team. If these relevant fields could come up with more activities to show kids how to turn what they learned in school to tangible results (a flying RC plane, a 3d printed boat or something), people would be much much less likely to think think that you have to be a genius to be an engineer.

Despite having grown up in the US all my life, I learned Chinese because my parents got me interested in ancient history. I studied CS because I loved modding video games and I love airplanes because my dad took me to the Dayton Airforce museum. If you expose kids to these things and engage them with rewarding activities, there are bound to be more people interested in these fields. Quite frankly, its an atrocity that most universities in the US don't even have a Maritime Architecture program considering the state of shipbuilding in this country...

 

[quellish]

I don't know maybe the older people can attest to the same about their own generation too

We had to learn the Dewey decimal system, and some of us later learned DNS.

 

[Reddington777]

I heard somewhere that many, if not most, of China's leadership are engineers and scientists.

I think top Chinese leadership is still kinda cronyism (not that US politics isn't either) and not necessarily all ran by engineers and scientists. What I will say is that Chinese leadership isn't burdened by ideology. You don't see Chinese leadership doing something for the sake of abiding to some out of touch ideology - like putting Jesus back in the classroom or banning abortion or parttake in any race/gender politics unless it starts to amount to fomenting insurrection.

Most of ours are lawyers, professional politicians, or "soft science" types. When you see someone with actual accomplishment enter the field (Trump, Vivek Ramaswamy,etc.) it's almost an aberration.

I think there isn't necessarily a problem of having a leader who doesn't know science or technology as long as they can defer to expertise.

Justinian, any of the five good emperors, Churchill, the Roosevelts, Nobunaga and Tokugawa, a good number of Chinese kings and emperors - none were technologists or scientists, but they had vision, they had the ability to put the right people in the right places to achieve that vision, and they had the resourcefulness to push these things through. They very well were burdened by different things as our leaders have been - parliament, congress, nobility, warrior classes and what not, but they are never burdened by what amounts to ideological delusion and complete inability to defer to expertise. These people can and often did compromise, but they didn't compromise their overarching goal.

Whether by personality or by difference of system, I can't think of a single person I'd vote for in the US (maybe except for Mark Kelly just because he seems level headed). No one strikes me as having the chops of the greats or their determination. As much as I hate having these words puke out of my mouth, for better or for worse, at least Trump takes drastic measures to deliver on his vision.

It's why I think this human resource problem is so so dire - great power competition isn't simply a matter of arms, economics or diplomacy. It's a competition of the very organization of two societies and the people within. Before nations are conquered, they lost on the home front decades before they lost on the field. Like how long Rome fought Carthage, Parthia and the Sassanians, two truly great and equal powers do not ever decisively lose on the field if they remained strong at home.

I have delusional hope though.

They say that the greats only come about during times of Chaos, otherwise they die in anonymity. So I guess I'll be waiting.

And our education system (such as it is) has failed utterly. Why be a tradesman when you can be an "influencer"? Why be self-sufficient when you can blame someone else for your failure? Why work hard when you can be a victim?

Agreed.

 

[Airbus A340]

I have more but had to make the first post short. People respond to incentives. There was a movie about Wall Street, I think the name of it is Margin Call. The guy who discovered the impending financial crisis had worked as a rocket scientist. Becoming a rocket scientist is hard. The work is hard and there is a lot of responsibility. Learning the material is hard. Being a financial engineer is much simpler and easier. As long as you help the company make money, things are ok. The rocket scientist has to deal with political changes, funding cuts, etc. On another board, posters were lamenting their sons not wanting to join the military or work in defence. Where is the incentive when someone smart enough to do the EW, RF, etc. work can make far more in finance? There's also the value system of the professional managerial class, which is all about competition in academics and career. The game is to to get into the "best" college and then get the "best" job. Which is "best"? The hardest one to get. That's the rules of the game and kids who grow up in "good" neighborhoods and go to "good" schools face peer pressure to buy in. Doing meaningful work is viewed as gauche compared to abstract work that makes money.

 

[shin_getter]

I can't even count how many undeserving doctors, lawyers and MBA/finance people I know who were hell bent on doing those jobs since high school. I don't know a single aerospace engineer much less a maritime architect. People these days love to manage, to make money from money, and to feel like they are doing something worthwhile instead of actually pursuing jobs producing tangible, useful things.

Humans are social animals, and social reality is more real than the physical when the latter is sufficient. You can not benefit from more food or more cloth than what one needs, but one can always benefit from more social status.

Do you know why deindustrialization is a thing, and that only a few countries can maintain industry? It is because humans don't actually need or want that many widgets and only a tiny fraction of people can make it all, and maybe that fraction can be self motivated and you don't even have to pay them (much). There is a lot of zero sum games that everyone can play to consume all the time instead!

Are people doing "real work" being screwed? Hardly, these people are rewarded for "doing real work" and thus having existential meaning, everyone else just get money instead.

All I ever hear them talk about in get togethers is inane bullshit about anti capitalism, about having to work extra hours without over time at their nonprofit startup helping people who don't want to be helped, about "sticking it to the man", or about how the government is taking away your rights and the military is fascism. It's not even politically affiliated either. Jesus christ I'll go home and jerk off instead thanks.

In any case, technological civilization is felt to be a mistake by big chunk of the population. The pace of change is already fast enough to induce serious disorientation all over the place, any speedup can only be viewed as a horror. It is interesting that the fantasy utopias of the age all points to the past, while the future is terror and horror stacked on top of each other.

Not helped that it is found that weapons that targets the mind is more practically useful, and the generation of the smartest minds gets sucked into generating improvements in advertising and "information".

The likes of aerospace is just widgets, wars is fought over politics and people have lost their minds. As such, "defense" hardly matters. Can't win wars if you don't know what you are fighting for and what even is winning. It is normal to have no velocity when there is no direction.

 

[publiusr]

Protest, we are informed, is not 'doing' anything. So what is?

About that:
https://phys.org/news/2025-11-americans-universities-broader-social-roles.html
One thing people need to realize is that one person’s protester is another person’s bully.

That and the more protests, the less each mean.

Take blocking roads—the Edmund Pettus Bridge. The only folks blocked were locals perhaps…the protest dignified.

Chaz/Chop, and this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_convoy_protest
There might have been ambulances with hurt children or beloved grandparents held up by that crud. The political message is inconsequential upon bad behavior. Greta is the worst thing that ever happened to the environmental movement—Earthrise and Attenborough’s work, the best.

I always wanted to meet Cousteau…never folks gluing themselves to things when I have to friggin work.

Complaints in this thread are followed by assertions that patterns of overall thinking must change.

Garrison Keillor once said that in terms of climate change, you have to let things take their course..don’t be too quick to be a nuisance and link this with that.

Intersectionality and social studies can just devolve into blood guilt/libels—and the stoic/humanist in me wants folks to see what we have in common.

My Dad died in agony at Medical Center East. Doctors made their minds up he just had arthritis. He had a tumor in his spine. I had to learn to let that go. I took a financial hit as caretaker, but I’d do it again. Mom grieved herself to death four months later…about the same time Reagan did—and that’s all I heard.

But resentment is a poison you drink hoping the other guy dies. I still struggle with that, believe me.

One of the oddest things I have ever seen was how a lot of folks here wrote Armstrong Williams, a black conservative, wanting forgiveness for slavery.

This contrition came from within—it couldn’t be demanded…we saw that with Versailles.

I am not a religious person these days, but I thought a lot about one late pastor who said something along the lines of “it is impossible to hear the still, small voice of the Lord when someone else is screaming in your ear.”

Jimmy Carter was the best example I know about how a righteous man lives…the best post-presidency ever. Mammon worshippers couldn’t touch him. Even when up in years, he often outworked folks half his age.

You can’t fake that.

The best agent of change comes from those who are unostentatiously authentic…people will, over time, be challenged by seeing that, and will want to emulate that.

 

[martinbayer]

I think top Chinese leadership is still kinda cronyism (not that US politics isn't either) and not necessarily all ran by engineers and scientists. What I will say is that Chinese leadership isn't burdened by ideology. You don't see Chinese leadership doing something for the sake of abiding to some out of touch ideology - like putting Jesus back in the classroom or banning abortion or parttake in any race/gender politics unless it starts to amount to fomenting insurrection.


I think there isn't necessarily a problem of having a leader who doesn't know science or technology as long as they can defer to expertise.

Justinian, any of the five good emperors, Churchill, the Roosevelts, Nobunaga and Tokugawa, a good number of Chinese kings and emperors - none were technologists or scientists, but they had vision, they had the ability to put the right people in the right places to achieve that vision, and they had the resourcefulness to push these things through. They very well were burdened by different things as our leaders have been - parliament, congress, nobility, warrior classes and what not, but they are never burdened by what amounts to ideological delusion and complete inability to defer to expertise. These people can and often did compromise, but they didn't compromise their overarching goal.

Whether by personality or by difference of system, I can't think of a single person I'd vote for in the US (maybe except for Mark Kelly just because he seems level headed). No one strikes me as having the chops of the greats or their determination. As much as I hate having these words puke out of my mouth, for better or for worse, at least Trump takes drastic measures to deliver on his vision.

It's why I think this human resource problem is so so dire - great power competition isn't simply a matter of arms, economics or diplomacy. It's a competition of the very organization of two societies and the people within. Before nations are conquered, they lost on the home front decades before they lost on the field. Like how long Rome fought Carthage, Parthia and the Sassanians, two truly great and equal powers do not ever decisively lose on the field if they remained strong at home.

I have delusional hope though.

They say that the greats only come about during times of Chaos, otherwise they die in anonymity. So I guess I'll be waiting.

Agreed.

The fundamental divide is whether people can truly vote for who is in charge of government in *free* and *fair* elections, as is routinely the case in Western Europe. Please feel free to alert me if that is *ever* the case in China or Russia.

 

[EmoBirb]

Churchill [...] none were technologists or scientists, but they had vision, they had the ability to put the right people in the right places to achieve that vision, and they had the resourcefulness to push these things through.

He was in part responsible for running the British Empire into the ground, I wouldn't put him alongside someone like Trajan or Hadrian, people of epic status.

 

[EmoBirb]

people can truly vote for who is in charge of government in *free* and *fair* elections, as is routinely the case in Western Europe.

You mean unless the parties that have been in charge for decades upon decades trying to smear or outright ban their upcoming political opposition? Europe has many things, but a political system that isn't constantly being manipulated in favor of a few people isn't one of these things. The chinese and russians at least don't pretend otherwise and the people know what's up, here the people are stupidly naive and the politicians put this whole, terribly acted, charade on.

 

[Arjen]

He was in part responsible for running the British Empire into the ground

Quantify please.
I do not think that is what Churchill is - or indeed will be - remembered for.

Europe has many things, but a political system that isn't constantly being manipulated in favor of a few people isn't one of these things.

We inhabit different instances of Europe, it appears. Changes of government in Western Europe are regular and peaceful.

 

[publiusr]

The no-kings deal is off base. I’ll take a Duke Leto over the past few elected musheads…Doctor Doom busy? Luthor 2028.

Frederick II wasn’t elected…good on him.

 

[had]

If you have to choose between Absolute-Power-Fantasies and Age of Reason values (built upon the Scientific Revolution) – I would think the choice should be easy inside this forum.
I guess I’m with the old French, when it comes to this matter.

And if someone absolutely wants to glorify Imperial Romans, Roman law would be a good choice – in my humble opinion.

 

[Arjen]

Delve into this:
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/393...-by-jones-terry-and-ereira-alan/9780563539162https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones'_BarbariansThe managament summary:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070208113119/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article714033.ece

Decline and fall of the Roman myth​

We were ‘barbarians’, but early British civilisation outshone the Roman version, says ex-Python Terry Jones. We just lost the propaganda war​

Nobody ever called themselves barbarians. It’s not that sort of word. It’s a word used about other people. It was used by the ancient Greeks to describe non-Greek people whose language they could not understand and who therefore seemed to babble unintelligibly: “ba ba ba”. The Romans adopted the Greek word and used it to label (and usually libel) the peoples who surrounded their own world.
The Roman interpretation became the only one that counted, and the peoples whom they called Barbarians became for ever branded — be they Spaniards, Britons, Gauls, Germans, Scythians, Persians or Syrians. And, of course, “barbarian” has become a byword for the very opposite of everything that we consider civilised.

The Romans kept the Barbarians at bay for as long as they could, but finally they were engulfed and the savage hordes overran the empire, destroying the cultural achievements of centuries. The light of reason and civilisation was almost snuffed out by the Barbarians, who annihilated everything that the Romans had put in place, sacking Rome itself and consigning Europe to the Dark Ages. The Barbarians brought only chaos and ignorance, until the renaissance rekindled the fires of Roman learning and art.

It is a familiar story, and it’s codswallop.

The unique feature of Rome was not its arts or its science or its philosophical culture, not its attachment to law. The unique feature of Rome was that it had the world’s first professional army. Normal societies consisted of farmers, hunters, craftsmen and traders. When they needed to fight they relied not on training or on standardised weapons, but on psyching themselves up to acts of individual heroism.

Seen through the eyes of people who possessed trained soldiers to fight for them, they were easily portrayed as simple savages. But that was far from the truth.

The fact that we still think of the Celts, the Huns, the Vandals, the Goths and so on as “barbarians” means that we have all fallen hook, line and sinker for Roman propaganda. We actually owe far more to the so-called “barbarians” than we do to the men in togas.

In the past 30 years, however, the story has begun to change. Archeological discoveries have shed new light on the ancient texts that have survived and this has led to new interpretations of the past. In Roman eyes the Celts may have lacked battle strategy, but their arms and equipment were in no way inferior to the Roman army’s. In fact the Celts had better helmets and better shields.

When the Romans got to Britain they found another technological advance: chariots. It may seem odd to those of us brought up on Ben Hur that the Romans should have been surprised by chariots on the battlefield, but that was the case.

The Romans had chariots, but the Britons made significant design improvements and, as Julius Caesar noted, had thoroughly mastered the art of using them. So how come the Romans built roads and the Celts did not? The answer is simple. The Celts did build roads. The “Romans-were-greatest” version of history made the earlier roads invisible until recently. One of the best preserved iron age roads is at Corlea in Ireland, but it was not until the 1980s that people realised how old it is. It was known locally as “the Danes’ road” and generally assumed to be of the Viking period or later. It was not until the timbers were submitted for tree-ring dating that the truth emerged: they were cut in 148BC.

However, the really startling thing is that wooden roads built the same way and at the same time have been found across Europe, as far away as northern Germany. The Celts, it seems, were sophisticated road builders and the construction of these wooden roads was no mean feat of engineering.

Oak planks were laid on birch runners and they were built broad enough for two carts to pass each other. What’s more, Celtic road building is not necessarily predated by that of the Romans. The first important Roman road was the Appian Way, built in 312BC, but the so-called “Upton Track” in south Wales, a wooden road laid across the mudflats along the Severn estuary, dates back to the 5th century BC.

It is only now that historians are beginning to reassess the sophistication of Celtic science and engineering. From early times the Celts were the iron masters of Europe. A Celtic smith was regarded as a magician, a man who could take a lump of rock and transform it into a magical new substance — a cunningly worked steel blade sharp enough to cut through bronze or ordinary iron.

The Celts’ mastery of metal technology also enabled them to develop sophisticated arable farms. We know they had iron ploughshares in Britain from about the 4th century BC because in a shrine at Frilford on the River Ock, near Abingdon in Oxfordshire — a site that was occupied from about 350BC — an iron ploughshare was found under one of the central pillars where it had been buried, perhaps as a votive offering. It is a fair guess that the temple was one of the first buildings to be erected there and that the iron ploughshare was offered at the time that its foundations were laid.

The Celts’ use of metal even allowed them to invent a harvesting machine. Historians did not believe that it could be true until bas-relief sculptures were discovered that apparently show just such a contraption. It was a sort of comb on wheels that beat off the ears of corn and deposited them in a container rather like the grass box of a lawnmower. A replica was built and tested in the 1980s.

It has been easy to underestimate Celtic technological achievements because so much has vanished or been misunderstood. Of course, it was thoughtless of the Celts not to leave us anything much in the way of written records — they should have known that the lack of books putting forward their own propaganda would weight the evidence firmly in favour of the Romans.

Western society’s enthusiasm since the renaissance for all things Roman has persuaded us to see much of the past through Roman eyes, even when contrary evidence stares us in the face. Once we turn the picture upside-down and look at history from a non-Roman point of view, things start to look very, very different.

 

[Arjen]

This is not in any way intended as an attack on @had
History is written by the victors.
From the wiki-entry: "It is claimed that Roman civilization ended not by the invasion of these tribes [Vandals and Huns] but by the loss of the African tax base".
I found the book a most entertaining read, I never saw the TV-series.

 

[Elysium]

When the Romans got to Britain they found another technological advance: chariots. It may seem odd to those of us brought up on Ben Hur that the Romans should have been surprised by chariots on the battlefield, but that was the case.

I guess blokes in sheds were a thing even back then.

 

[publiusr]

Delve into this:
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/393...-by-jones-terry-and-ereira-alan/9780563539162

Well naturally the Python troupe didn’t want to be maligned by the common soldiery…right Biggus? Rome just petered out.

Today, China is the only nation it seems that actually tells it’s engineers “yes.”

 

[Reddington777]

Humans are social animals, and social reality is more real than the physical when the latter is sufficient. You can not benefit from more food or more cloth than what one needs, but one can always benefit from more social status.

This is why there are generations of people that are built different. Usually its generations that had memory of better times, had those times taken away by some conflict and hardship, then survived and bid away those hard times. They tend to be the most productive and least complaining (hence the tough times and hard people quote). Might even be insecurity that drives them to be that way their entire life.They give birth to kids born into the world rebuilt by their parents, and every successive generation removed from that catastrophic event necessarily becomes more unbothered by it until the next catastrophic event.

The same rule applies to the overall wealth, unity and happiness rate of a nation - sorta like what you said about industrialization and de-industrialization. A nation is the safest and most productive when its people are riding that industrialization boom upwards and the few years/decades after that. Its during those generations that people are comparatively the happiest with their society because they've been uplifted from the working class to the middle class. Like Europe during the 18-19th century, or the US during WWI and WWII, or china in the last 20-30 years. But like clockwork, once those generations that remember the past before they were uplifted pass away and when "getting more material goods doesnt do you any better" people begin looking for more, nations deindustrialize because most people no longer want to do that work, and many become increasingly unhappy even if they no longer have to be the working class.

And most certainly, perpetual conflict isnt an answer either, because theres been many societies where thats crushed peoples unity, hope and productivity instead completely stop a society from moving forward.

Its seems to be an unavoidable cycle with no answer, but I still expect that the government would actually spend more time trying to mitigate the situation in better ways (as named above). IMO theres been nothing tangible done about this problem. We do t necessarily need to be like China or east Asia, but we shouldn't be the way we are now either.

 

[Reddington777]

The fundamental divide is whether people can truly vote for who is in charge of government in *free* and *fair* elections, as is routinely the case in Western Europe. Please feel free to alert me if that is *ever* the case in China or Russia.

Id like to insert here a certain meme that I cannot help but refer back to when I see certain things people in the west say:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE


Ofcourse I dont actually believe this, but its partially true here - we the people do not know everything. In most cases, the government always has access to greater information than the average voter. If we did, things would be much easier wouldnt they? The whole democracy vs authoritarianism debate goes as far back as Plato and his enlightened philosopher kings argument. Indeed a wise ruler can and does rule better than a democracy, but on the inevitable chance that a horrible person becomes king, you are screwed.

One may argue that democracy is more... humanistic? Or moral? That might well be true, but thats relative to the times. I go back to the roman analogy because it illustrates this point: the roman republic elected a dictator specifically because of the need to be reactive and agile when faced with a pacing threat. In dire circumstances, there is use for authoritarianism or at least a requisition of certain liberties of a democratic society.

I watched generation kill. And frequently after ive ranted against someone or some policy, I cant help but wonder to myself - maybe im the uninformed citizen who is running my mouth without knowing all the information.

 

[Reddington777]

This is not in any way intended as an attack on @had
History is written by the victors.
From the wiki-entry: "It is claimed that Roman civilization ended not by the invasion of these tribes [Vandals and Huns] but by the loss of the African tax base".
I found the book a most entertaining read, I never saw the TV-series.

Yep. The Egyptians, Chinese, Japanese or any number of places that once hosted large empires wrote of their subjugates as barbarians as well and in some of these places, those beliefs continue to affect how people think of their neighbors and of countrymen. It many cases, whether its in China or in Europe, it wasnt even ethnic cleansing or subjugation that perpetuated these beliefs. It was the willful adoption of the culture, customs and beliefs of empires like Rome, greece, or of China (for any mumber of principalities in chinese history that originated from nomadic tribes of the north).

But propaganda or not, the romans did indeed fight the sassanians for near 500 years of intermittent warfare - so much so that it may have spelled the collapse of both empires. Thats what peer on peer warfare looks like. It takes losing at home to actually get conquered, otherwise it becomes a game of endurance - that is until both sides decide enough is enough.

Hell, at that note, id really be interested on discussing gray zone warfare if it wasnt for how politically charged that is. That one, more than any actual hard capability, is more threatening.

 

[martinbayer]

You mean unless the parties that have been in charge for decades upon decades trying to smear or outright ban their upcoming political opposition? Europe has many things, but a political system that isn't constantly being manipulated in favor of a few people isn't one of these things. The chinese and russians at least don't pretend otherwise and the people know what's up, here the people are stupidly naive and the politicians put this whole, terribly acted, charade on.

I grew up in Germany, and at least at the time the political system was *NOT* constantly being manipulated in favor of a few people.

 

[Arjen]

The whole democracy vs authoritarianism debate goes as far back as Plato and his enlightened philosopher kings argument. Indeed a wise ruler can and does rule better than a democracy, but on the inevitable chance that a horrible person becomes king, you are screwed.

Why we should persist with democracy:
"Democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried" - Winston Churchill
Remove feedback from the loop, and you are screwed.

 

[yeetmahboi]

The best agent of change comes from those who are unostentatiously authentic…people will, over time, be challenged by seeing that, and will want to emulate that.

1000%

 

[SspewixzzZ]

The CCP has incurred substantial policy costs to rein in financial expansion. Under its guidance, China's industrial development has never been solely dictated by blind market forces; it has always been strategically aligned with the nation's overarching development goals. The highly profitable financial sector inherently threatens to overwhelm the industrial sector with relative ease. Consequently, the CCP's restrictive policies are indeed severe—but not without justification. The historical context and practical considerations are far too extensive and complex to delve into here.

I believe the human resourses issue is considerably complex. China's situation is, in some ways, the inverse: there is too many resourses in STEM fields, while the social sciences (especially after excluding business and law) face de facto discrimination.

Guided by this heavy emphasis on industry and technology, university presidents can even openly declare slogans like "better less than more in the social sciences." During my university years, nearly half of my classmates went to great lengths to transfer into law school, as being a lawyer is currently considered one of the few highly coveted non-STEM professions in China. Similarly, two math prodigies I knew at the USTC (University of Science and Technology of China) either did or planned to switch to finance for graduate studies—these "lucrative and prestigious" careers invariably prove more attractive. As for the remaining half of my class, by senior year, many couldn't grasp even the most fundamental concepts in our major (Public Administration, which in China aligns more closely with political science).

Since social sciences don't promise lucrative returns, few students genuinely immerse themselves in the field—despite the fact that there is one academic master with a political science background among the CCP's top leadership.
When selecting my major, I listed Public Administration as my sole choice, and I firmly believe it is a noble discipline. Yet, I must concede that the CCP's perspective holds some truth: the vast majority of students in these social science programs are merely diploma seekers, having learned next to nothing after four years of idle pursuits.

Nevertheless, the smoothing function social sciences provide for societal operations is immense. Whenever I witness STEM students being easily duped by simplistic marketing tactics, or encounter naïve critiques of government policies, I keenly feel a bitterness akin to what you did.

The conversation seems to be veering towards ideological disputes, so let's keep things friendly...