Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

FighterJock said:
That does not sound good TomcatVIP, metal shavings in fuel? That would lead to a catastrophic loss of engine either during flight or at engine start up, it is a good job that the Marines found the shavings in the fuel.
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The plastic scraper left in the wing fold is definitely a failure in tool control, and should never happen (although systems do fail all too often).

The shavings in the fuel tanks is a common issue with new aircraft and after fuel tank maintenance. Those little pieces can escape and hide in places where they cannot be found, until the aircraft flies and sloshes the fuel around. There are fuel strainers for the big stuff and fuel filters for the microscopic bits before they get into engine fuel controls and fuel nozzles where they could cause mischief. Not saying they should be there, but it is almost impossible for the tanks to be 100% clean after manufacture. It is likely the Marines will find some more debris even after their tank flush activity.
 
GTX said:
https://www.twz.com/news-features/polands-future-f-35s-have-been-offically-named-husarz
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Oh, please please please tell me that they're going to give them some tail art of the Hussar's wings!



F119Doctor said:
The plastic scraper left in the wing fold is definitely a failure in tool control, and should never happen (although systems do fail all too often).

The shavings in the fuel tanks is a common issue with new aircraft and after fuel tank maintenance. Those little pieces can escape and hide in places where they cannot be found, until the aircraft flies and sloshes the fuel around. There are fuel strainers for the big stuff and fuel filters for the microscopic bits before they get into engine fuel controls and fuel nozzles where they could cause mischief. Not saying they should be there, but it is almost impossible for the tanks to be 100% clean after manufacture. It is likely the Marines will find some more debris even after their tank flush activity.
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At Tramco, the plastic scrapers weren't controlled at all. Yes, you had to go to the tool crib to get one, but they're just acrylic with an angle cut on the ends.

The Marines are going to flush out a LOT more metal shavings from the tanks.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Oh, please please please tell me that they're going to give them some tail art of the Hussar's wings!




At Tramco, the plastic scrapers weren't controlled at all. Yes, you had to go to the tool crib to get one, but they're just acrylic with an angle cut on the ends.

The Marines are going to flush out a LOT more metal shavings from the tanks.
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A proper tool control program would require that the scrapers should be turned back in to the tool crib to be accounted for at the end of the work day - one out, one in. The tool crib would then be able to discard the used ones, and there are no stray tools around to be left in the airframe or engine.

We still struggled with accounting for consumable parts like o-rings where an extra could be left in the component.
 
F119Doctor said:
The plastic scraper left in the wing fold is definitely a failure in tool control, and should never happen (although systems do fail all too often).

The shavings in the fuel tanks is a common issue with new aircraft and after fuel tank maintenance. Those little pieces can escape and hide in places where they cannot be found, until the aircraft flies and sloshes the fuel around. There are fuel strainers for the big stuff and fuel filters for the microscopic bits before they get into engine fuel controls and fuel nozzles where they could cause mischief. Not saying they should be there, but it is almost impossible for the tanks to be 100% clean after manufacture. It is likely the Marines will find some more debris even after their tank flush activity.
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the flushing should have been made at the factory. I would bet my olive contaminated martini that, with fuel price rising, some clever LM supervisors thought that they would fare good scraping that cost incognito...
 
F119Doctor said:
A proper tool control program would require that the scrapers should be turned back in to the tool crib to be accounted for at the end of the work day - one out, one in. The tool crib would then be able to discard the used ones, and there are no stray tools around to be left in the airframe or engine.

We still struggled with accounting for consumable parts like o-rings where an extra could be left in the component.
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I should add that Tramco hired out the tank-diving to a separate company. They probably had tight control over everything that went into the tank, but I don't know that for certain.

It's not like kerosene dissolves acrylic.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I should add that Tramco hired out the tank-diving to a separate company. They probably had tight control over everything that went into the tank, but I don't know that for certain.

It's not like kerosene dissolves acrylic.
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Why would anyone put kerosene on the wing-fold joint (which is where the scraper was found)?
 
BlackBat242 said:
Why would anyone put kerosene on the wing-fold joint (which is where the scraper was found)?
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Degreasing, I'd imagine.

Obviously didn't read the article, headline gave the impression that the scraper and metal shavings were found in the fuel tanks.
 
The Blk 4 aircraft are sufficiently different from a technical standpoint that in the days of old it probably would deserve a new letter designation. New ESM antennas and arrangement, new DAS, new IR/laser designator, new radar, new computer core with 25x the processor power.
 
Josh_TN said:
The Blk 4 aircraft are sufficiently different from a technical standpoint that in the days of old it probably would deserve a new letter designation. New ESM antennas and arrangement, new DAS, new IR/laser designator, new radar, new computer core with 25x the processor power.
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in fact it's extremely annoying that it does not for some reason get a new letter.
Because it indeed 100% fits the requirement, and writing all those block technology increments is simply inconvenient.
Sukhoi and Chengdu aren't afraid of it, what's the problem with F-35s?
 
Ainen said:
in fact it's extremely annoying that it does not for some reason get a new letter.
Because it indeed 100% fits the requirement, and writing all those block technology increments is simply inconvenient.
Sukhoi and Chengdu aren't afraid of it, what's the problem with F-35s?
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My guess is that since the A/B/C designations indicate launch/recovery mode that they do not want to further complicate the designation system with a D/E/F listing. But in any case, the U.S. numbering convention has been a hash of broken rules for a while now.
 
Josh_TN said:
The Blk 4 aircraft are sufficiently different from a technical standpoint that in the days of old it probably would deserve a new letter designation. New ESM antennas and arrangement, new DAS, new IR/laser designator, new radar, new computer core with 25x the processor power.
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Then why produce 1,000 aircraft of reduced capability that are barely in service now?

What was so ineffective about the pre-Block 4 aircraft?

Were these Blocks pre-planned? If so, going back how far?

Absolute train wreck with more train cars plowing into it.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Original DAS tech is 20 freaking years old already.
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And after 20 years still isn't mounted on any other Western fighter...

Bruno Anthony said:
Then why produce 1,000 aircraft of reduced capability that are barely in service now?
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Tranche 4 Typhoons are more capable than the Tranche 1s 2s or 3s. Why did any of those countries bother with producing those?

Why did NAA bother to make the P-51A or B?

Etc. etc.
 
red admiral said:
Tranche 4 Typhoons are more capable than the Tranche 1s 2s or 3s. Why did any of those countries bother with producing those?

Why did NAA bother to make the P-51A or B?

Etc. etc.
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To be fair, F-35 IOC is indeed rather underpacked - probably due to overoptimistic expectations on the blk 4 schedule.
Like, leaving full weapon integration out in retrospect is highly doubtful. But that's me being smart many years later...and it's under question mark if Su-57 and J-20 actually escaped similar problems. We don't know, but at least for the former it's unlikely, and the latter probably wasn't really designed to take many a2g weapons early on in the first place.
 
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Ainen said:
To be fair, F-35 IOC is indeed rather underpacked - probably due to overoptimistic expectations on the blk 4 schedule.
Like, leaving full weapon integration out in retrospect is highly doubtful.
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Go back and look at how few capabilities the Typhoon Block 2 or Gripen As had as examples

Expecting fully developed aircraft from the start with all existing weapons (including those that haven't finished development) integrated is unrealistic
 
Josh_TN said:
The Blk 4 aircraft are sufficiently different from a technical standpoint that in the days of old it probably would deserve a new letter designation. New ESM antennas and arrangement, new DAS, new IR/laser designator, new radar, new computer core with 25x the processor power.
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This! Given the massive hardware and software upgrades that the Block 4 F-35s are going to get they should be designated F-35D, F-35E and F-35F.
 
GTX said:
Does it really matter what they are called...so long as the operators know the capabilities they have.
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I don’t think there’s anyone on earth who knows what their capabilities are least of all the operators.
The F-35I did prove devastating against Hamas, so there’s that.
 
red admiral said:
Go back and look at how few capabilities the Typhoon Block 2 or Gripen As had as examples

Expecting fully developed aircraft from the start with all existing weapons (including those that haven't finished development) integrated is unrealistic
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Those 2 planes have their own issues but let’s not act like the F-35 is some fresh off the drawing board aircraft.

Combat ready.
Fully combat ready.

Anyone have an idea of what the actual capabilities are of the nearly 1,000 already delivered ones can do?
 
Bruno Anthony said:
Next Gen DAS.
What happened to the Old Gen? Fukkin plane is barely entering service and it needs major upgrades.
What a stiff.
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For reference, the Next Gen DAS is supposed to offer (according to Raytheon):

At least $3 billion in life cycle cost savings
45% reduction in unit recurring cost
50% reduction in operations and sustainment cost
5 times as reliable
Twice the performance

It should be installed from Lot 15 onwards.

Exactly what "twice the performance" means is not specified, but there is reason to be optimistic: LWIR tech has come a long way in the time between the original and next gen DAS. Sensors are more sensitive, and you can get substantially more pixels at the same cost. The newer cryocoolers are also a lot more reliable. There's a whole bunch of other options too such as sensors that work at higher temperatures, dual-band ones that can see both LWIR and MWIR, more on-sensor processing, etc.

I don't know if the cost benefits will play out, but performance and reliability improvements seem realistic.
 
NTKV said:
For reference, the Next Gen DAS is supposed to offer (according to Raytheon):
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I assume this is all displayed on the HMD?
Has that been debugged?

A stupid question. Is DAS(new or old) supposed to help in a WVR fight? Will constant head turning still be necessary?
 
Bruno Anthony said:
I assume this is all displayed on the HMD?
Has that been debugged?

A stupid question. Is DAS(new or old) supposed to help in a WVR fight? Will constant head turning still be necessary?
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DAS provides full sphere coverage, so only the portion the pilot is looking at would be displayed on the HMD. The rest is analyzed by the F-35's computer, looking for other aircraft, incoming missiles, etc. It also does stuff like identify and locate artillery, rocket launches (both things like Grads but also SAM launches) and can spot and track ballistic missiles and thus help cue naval assets or THAAD/Patriot.

Pilots have said that even the current DAS is incredibly useful in WVR fights.

Full details are classified, of course, but what has been released makes it clear it is incredibly useful.
 
WatcherZero said:
Why buy something when you know the next model which is vastly superior will be ready in only a few months and you will have to pay to refit to that standard?
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The program was so behind schedule that they had to get any & all flyable aircraft out there.

Does the Navy still know it’s getting the F-35C and has it made its peace with it?
 
Actually big backlogs of undelivered aircraft building up as various governments are refusing delivery until TR-3 is signed off and so LM have been slowing production lines.
 
The F-35 has been in production for many years and has produced a thousand aircraft. While I think it is the absolute poster child of a miss managed program, not upgrading the baseline configuration hardly seems like a solution.
 
Josh_TN said:
The F-35 has been in production for many years and has produced a thousand aircraft. While I think it is the absolute poster child of a miss managed program, not upgrading the baseline configuration hardly seems like a solution.
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I’m just questioning why so many were built with an apparently very limited config.
 

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