USAF/US NAVY 6G Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

[GTX]

If people want to believe there is already a NGAD flying then go on and believe...and prepare to be disappointed.

 

[elmer]

They have had 30 years to design a new one, some of the work may already be done by
Lockheed and N.G.

 

[NeilChapman]

Perhaps this is to what Frank Kendall was eluding when he suggested the Century Series process will not likely be used for NGAD.

View: https://youtu.be/R1MS5plD8bM


The first builds will be horrendously expensive. Once production is underway, manufacturing lessons will be learned. If the contract can be written, or the manufacturer incentivized for speed and volume, value can be added quickly.

It will be unfortunate if this airframe is export restricted. I would prefer less sensitivity and greater production speed and volume. Heck, they were talking about Australia getting B-21's.

At this point, speed of production and volume are critical assets if a Pacific kinetic confrontation ensues in the next five to seven years. Once speed and volume are attained, the USAF, USN, and partners have developed tactics and lethality, perhaps then additional US specific capability should be added.

As an analogy, we now have software-defined cars. The bodies don't change much. The processing power required for the rapid advancement of code changes. If there is thermal capacity, compute can be upgraded. Newer sensors can be upgraded on the production line. Perhaps this understanding has contributed to the thought process.

FK is an exceptionally qualified leader. The timelines he's looking at may also demand the process advocated. Pick one, build one, get it done. I would still advocate for no export restrictions, speed of production, and high volume.

 

[Dreamfighter]

It's more likely that they've flown a systems demonstrator than an actual NGAD prototype.

Exactly. for instance one could classify the Lockheed Martin CATBird as a "full-scale flight demonstrator" and yet if you think that is representative of what the F-35 is other than the systems/software than you are going to be seriously disappointed. The same goes for the reporting here I believe. People are wanting to see things that simply aren't there.

By the way, I can also point out to the following from the same individual:

Roper revealed to Defense News his thinking for how the program might work:

• Put at least two manufacturers on contract to design a fighter jet. These could include the existing companies capable of building combat aircraft — Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman — as well as new entrants that could bring a unique technology to the table.
• Have each company create a hyper-realistic “digital twin” of its fighter design using advanced 3D modeling. Use those models to run myriad simulations of how production and sustainment could occur, hypothetically optimizing both and reducing cost and labor hours.
• Award a contract to a single fighter manufacturer for an initial batch of aircraft. Roper said that industry could build about a squadron’s worth of airplanes per year, or about 24 aircraft. Include options in the contract for additional batches of aircraft. Air Combat Command leadership has told Roper that 72 aircraft — about the number of aircraft in a typical Air Force wing — would be a viable amount for normal operations.
• While that vendor begins production, restart the competition, putting other companies on contract to begin designing the next aircraft.

When speaking in the context of a program for a brand-new generation of fighter, I think most people wouldn´t call a CATbird a 'full-scale flight demonstrator', rather 'a flying systems/software test-bed'.

"Have each company create a hyper-realistic “digital twin” of its fighter design using advanced 3D modeling. Use those models to run myriad simulations of how production and sustainment could occur, hypothetically optimizing both and reducing cost and labor hours."

If there (at some point) does not exist some real-world demonstator/prototype of the fighter-design that is being worked on, the 'digital twin' would then not be a twin at all but THE (digital) fighter-demonstator/prototype.
The purpose of having digital twins of aircraft is to be able to predict more accurately real-aircraft performance (though most probably not achievable throughout it´s entire flight-envelope) and as consequence to (hopefully) be able to shorten the real-world experimentation and flight-testing, to experiment with all kinds of design-changes/modifications in a virtual world and to be able to implement any wanted/needed changes/modifications faster and more easily into a real-world aircraft under construction or in testing as to avoid as much as possible substantial modifications (and new problems or delays such modifications may cause) further along in the aircraft´s development and/or also once the aircraft has entered production.

The part about producing some squadrons of one manufacturer´s design and then move on to designing the next aircraft (Roper´s 'digital centuries' approach), has been abandoned for the NGAD manned-aircraft, as has been mentioned multiple times now.
A form of such an approach is still envisioned for the subsystems of the manned platform/fighter, and it is still valid for the unmanned Collaborative Combat Aircraft part of the NGAD-program.

 

[djfawcett]

so where does that leave N-G especially with whats been shown subtly or teased in the video. Unless N-G have lost out to the competition and deciding to reveal slowly.

I suspect as long as the EMD-contract is not awarded sometime next year, and maybe also afterwards, those who are still candidates for the EMD-contract won´t reveal much at all (with the exception of additional concept-art) due to the (more) classified nature of the program (when compared to the ATF-program and the YF-22 & YF-23 prototypes). To me, it looks like NG is in those videos - and contrary to what LM and Boeing have done so far - going a small step further then just showing concept-art, though without unveiling a (former) demonstator/prototype 'in the flesh'. Unless in the next weeks or months LM and/or Boeing also start revealing more about the (flying) NGAD-demonstators/prototypes they´re busy with as basis for EMD-phase proposals, my guess would be NG has been eliminated as a candidate for EMD and NG therefore decided (for commercial/publicity reasons) to slowly/partially reveil what it worked on for NGAD-manned and what it´s NGAD-demonstrator looks like.
Or, what NG is showing in the videos maybe has nothing to do with the 'NGAD-platform' at all, perhaps it is/was e.g. some kind of manned testbed for the B-21´s 'unmanned escort/companion', an idea or a plan which has been moved off the table not so long ago, IIRC.

I hate to throw water on hopes and dreams, but rest assurd none of the promotional art is representative of the actual designs. They may have elements of the future design but that is about it. If I was going to hang my hat on anything, the oooppppss where a pole model was seen on a truck outside of Helendale may be more representative than any art to date. Remember we are discussing what is probably a special access program. I will more than happy to hear arguments to the contrary because I hope that I am wrong. Like all of you, I would like to believe the art has more validity than what I believe to be.

 

[Hood]

Roper also said within the same breath "We still have to make it real."

There might well be a subscale technological demonstrator flying but its not going to be a NGAD any more than XST was an F-117 or than the X-29 or X-31 showed what ATF and JAST might be.

 

[dark sidius]

so where does that leave N-G especially with whats been shown subtly or teased in the video. Unless N-G have lost out to the competition and deciding to reveal slowly.

I suspect as long as the EMD-contract is not awarded sometime next year, and maybe also afterwards, those who are still candidates for the EMD-contract won´t reveal much at all (with the exception of additional concept-art) due to the (more) classified nature of the program (when compared to the ATF-program and the YF-22 & YF-23 prototypes). To me, it looks like NG is in those videos - and contrary to what LM and Boeing have done so far - going a small step further then just showing concept-art, though without unveiling a (former) demonstator/prototype 'in the flesh'. Unless in the next weeks or months LM and/or Boeing also start revealing more about the (flying) NGAD-demonstators/prototypes they´re busy with as basis for EMD-phase proposals, my guess would be NG has been eliminated as a candidate for EMD and NG therefore decided (for commercial/publicity reasons) to slowly/partially reveil what it worked on for NGAD-manned and what it´s NGAD-demonstrator looks like.
Or, what NG is showing in the videos maybe has nothing to do with the 'NGAD-platform' at all, perhaps it is/was e.g. some kind of manned testbed for the B-21´s 'unmanned escort/companion', an idea or a plan which has been moved off the table not so long ago, IIRC.

I hate to throw water on hopes and dreams, but rest assurd none of the promotional art is representative of the actual designs. They may have elements of the future design but that is about it. If I was going to hang my hat on anything, the oooppppss where a pole model was seen on a truck outside of Helendale may be more representative than any art to date. Remember we are discussing what is probably a special access program. I will more than happy to hear arguments to the contrary because I hope that I am wrong. Like all of you, I would like to believe the art has more validity than what I believe to be.

Yes and No, remember the B-21 art before the official presentation , it was like the first art of B-21 and it was a special access program too...

 

[djfawcett]

so where does that leave N-G especially with whats been shown subtly or teased in the video. Unless N-G have lost out to the competition and deciding to reveal slowly.

I suspect as long as the EMD-contract is not awarded sometime next year, and maybe also afterwards, those who are still candidates for the EMD-contract won´t reveal much at all (with the exception of additional concept-art) due to the (more) classified nature of the program (when compared to the ATF-program and the YF-22 & YF-23 prototypes). To me, it looks like NG is in those videos - and contrary to what LM and Boeing have done so far - going a small step further then just showing concept-art, though without unveiling a (former) demonstator/prototype 'in the flesh'. Unless in the next weeks or months LM and/or Boeing also start revealing more about the (flying) NGAD-demonstators/prototypes they´re busy with as basis for EMD-phase proposals, my guess would be NG has been eliminated as a candidate for EMD and NG therefore decided (for commercial/publicity reasons) to slowly/partially reveil what it worked on for NGAD-manned and what it´s NGAD-demonstrator looks like.
Or, what NG is showing in the videos maybe has nothing to do with the 'NGAD-platform' at all, perhaps it is/was e.g. some kind of manned testbed for the B-21´s 'unmanned escort/companion', an idea or a plan which has been moved off the table not so long ago, IIRC.

I hate to throw water on hopes and dreams, but rest assurd none of the promotional art is representative of the actual designs. They may have elements of the future design but that is about it. If I was going to hang my hat on anything, the oooppppss where a pole model was seen on a truck outside of Helendale may be more representative than any art to date. Remember we are discussing what is probably a special access program. I will more than happy to hear arguments to the contrary because I hope that I am wrong. Like all of you, I would like to believe the art has more validity than what I believe to be.

Yes and No, remember the B-21 art before the official presentation , it was like the first art of B-21 and it was a special access program too...

Keep in mind, the art released for the B-21 was driven by DoD post contract award after construction was well underway. Concerning NGAD, pretty much everything to date are "look what we are going to do" advertising releases by the contractors. With all of that said, I hope you are right, but I would bet against it.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Roper also said within the same breath "We still have to make it real."

That was not Roper, but Hinote who said that. By which he meant 'We still have to get it into (a) production (program)'.

There might well be a subscale technological demonstrator flying but its not going to be a NGAD any more than XST was an F-117 or than the X-29 or X-31 showed what ATF and JAST might be.

“If you think we don’t care about physical world results, we do,” Roper said in a slickly produced keynote speech. The Next-Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program, meant to complement or succeed the F-22 and F-35, he said, “has come so far that the full-scale flight demonstrator has already flown in the physical world. It’s broken a lot of records in the doing.”
Roper disclosed no further details about when the aircraft flew, who built it, or what records it broke.
...
Roper revealed the NGAD flights to gain “greater credibility in the process,” and convince those members of the acquisition team not “read in” on the secret jet to understand the concept works - and that they need to “get smart on this technology.”

Roper’s NGAD Bombshell | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Digital engineering is real—and accelerating change right now.

www.airandspaceforces.com

“We’ve already built and flown a full-scale flight demonstrator in the real world, and we broke records in doing it,” Will Roper told Defense News in an exclusive interview ahead of the Air Force Association´s Air, Space and Cyber Conference. “We are ready to go and build the next-generation aircraft in a way that has never happened before.” ...
The importance, Roper said, is that just a year after the service completed an analysis of alternatives, the Air Force has proven it can use cutting-edge advanced manufacturing techniques to build and test a virtual version of its next fighter - and then move to constructing a full-scale prototype and flying it with mission systems onboard. ...
Roper declined to say how quickly the Air Force could move its next-gen fighter into production, except to say “pretty fast.”
But before the service decides to begin producing a new generation of fighters, it must determine how many aircraft it will commit to buy and when it wants to start purchasing them.

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet

Does this give the Next Generation Air Dominance program more momentum, or does it open it up to more scrutiny?

www.defensenews.com

 

[Dreamfighter]

Back (for a moment) to last year;

September 27, 2022

The U.S. Air Force’s secretive, next-generation fighter platform is still in the design process and has not formally entered its engineering, manufacturing and development stage, the service’s secretary said this month.
The acknowledgment marks a step back from June, when Frank Kendall publicly said the highly classified NGAD program had already hit the key milestone. “We have now started on the EMD program to do the development aircraft that we’re going to take into production,” he said during a Heritage Foundation event at the time.
Kendall offered the fullest update so far on the status of NGAD during a Sept. 19 roundtable with reporters at the Air and Space Forces Association’s Air, Space and Cyber conference.
The service is still designing NGAD, Kendall said, and the program has not yet gone through the Milestone B review process. That milestone marks the completion of a program’s technology maturation phase and the formal start of an acquisition program, when the service takes its preliminary design and focuses on system integration, manufacturing processes and other details ahead of production.
...
Asked about his June comments during the Defense News Conference on Sept. 7, Kendall suggested he hadn’t meant the implication.
“I’m an old-school guy,” Kendall said. “I’ve been around doing this stuff for a long time, and I still think of engineering and manufacturing development as a phase in which you are working on the new design.”
Asked again about the program at the Air, Space and Cyber conference, Kendall clarified that the service is still working on NGAD’s design and that he used the term EMD in “my colloquial sense.” He said the Milestone B decision, which occurs after the preliminary design review and is a prerequisite for entering the EMD phase, has not taken place.

US Air Force eyes NGAD deliveries by 2030. Can it be done?

"The odds are against it happening" by 2030, John Venable of the Heritage Foundation said. "In the last 25 or 30 years, nothing’s come in on time.”

www.defensenews.com

Back to the present;

May 18, 2023

The Air Force has formally begun to solicit proposals for its secretive Next Generation Air Dominance fighter, according to a service news release, with the goal of awarding a contract for the jet next year.

...
Following Kendall’s remarks (from 2022), the Defense Department Inspector General launched a review of NGAD “to determine the extent to which the Air Force demonstrated that the critical technologies used in the Next-Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter aircraft were mature enough to support entry into the engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) phase of the NGAD program’s acquisition timeline,” according to a September 26 memo [PDF].

The results of that review have not been made public, though Air Force spokesperson Ann Stefanek told Breaking Defense in a statement that “At the conclusion of the source selection the program will go to the Service Acquisition Executive (SAE) for a Milestone B decision to award the EMD contract to the successful offeror.”

NGAD Deadline: Air Force's next-generation fighter will be selected in 2024 - Breaking Defense

Little is known about the secretive sixth-generation Next Generation Air Dominance fighter, other than it will be extremely expensive.

breakingdefense.com

 

[RavenOne]

so where does that leave N-G especially with whats been shown subtly or teased in the video. Unless N-G have lost out to the competition and deciding to reveal slowly.

I suspect as long as the EMD-contract is not awarded sometime next year, and maybe also afterwards, those who are still candidates for the EMD-contract won´t reveal much at all (with the exception of additional concept-art) due to the (more) classified nature of the program (when compared to the ATF-program and the YF-22 & YF-23 prototypes). To me, it looks like NG is in those videos - and contrary to what LM and Boeing have done so far - going a small step further then just showing concept-art, though without unveiling a (former) demonstator/prototype 'in the flesh'. Unless in the next weeks or months LM and/or Boeing also start revealing more about the (flying) NGAD-demonstators/prototypes they´re busy with as basis for EMD-phase proposals, my guess would be NG has been eliminated as a candidate for EMD and NG therefore decided (for commercial/publicity reasons) to slowly/partially reveil what it worked on for NGAD-manned and what it´s NGAD-demonstrator looks like.
Or, what NG is showing in the videos maybe has nothing to do with the 'NGAD-platform' at all, perhaps it is/was e.g. some kind of manned testbed for the B-21´s 'unmanned escort/companion', an idea or a plan which has been moved off the table not so long ago, IIRC.

I hate to throw water on hopes and dreams, but rest assurd none of the promotional art is representative of the actual designs. They may have elements of the future design but that is about it. If I was going to hang my hat on anything, the oooppppss where a pole model was seen on a truck outside of Helendale may be more representative than any art to date. Remember we are discussing what is probably a special access program. I will more than happy to hear arguments to the contrary because I hope that I am wrong. Like all of you, I would like to believe the art has more validity than what I believe to be.

Yes and No, remember the B-21 art before the official presentation , it was like the first art of B-21 and it was a special access program too...

Keep in mind, the art released for the B-21 was driven by DoD post contract award after construction was well underway. Concerning NGAD, pretty much everything to date are "look what we are going to do" advertising releases by the contractors. With all of that said, I hope you are right, but I would bet against it.

Speaking to a buddy contact of mine at N-G,. he said that up to point of last summer, the company policy was to (even though it was blatantly obvious)

1) that no employee (regardless whether they were working on (MQ-9C Firescout, or working in admin, finance, etc ) should mention that they were building the B-21

2) If it was not for the air force pressure,(probably due to Ukraine) the rollout would have been in-house...

Cheers

 

[TomcatViP]

Should tune down the polemic around the flying test beds:

Kendall said NGAD’s origins date back to the Obama administration, when he in his previous role as the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics asked the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency to study what the Air Force would need to ensure it could dominate the skies in a future war.


DARPA’s response, Kendall said, was that the service didn’t just need a lone fighter — it needed a “family of systems,” also encompassing weapons, connections to assets in space, and possibly autonomous drone wingmen.

Kendall then launched a program called the Aerospace Innovation Initiative to start to develop technologies that would form the core of a sixth-generation fighter. That effort led to the creation of experimental prototype aircraft, which Kendall called X-planes, to flesh out those technologies and prove they can work.

Advancements in model-based systems engineering and digitalization also made it possible for both government and contractor design teams to work together much more efficiently, he said.

A nice read for plenty other aspect b/w

US Air Force wants to avoid F-35 mistakes on sixth-gen fighter

The Air Force plans to award a contract to a vendor to build its Next Generation Air Dominance fighter in 2024.

www.defensenews.com

 

[dark sidius]

Air Force Will Pick Just One NGAD Design in 2024, Kendall Says

Only one design of the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will move into development, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Just one .... But wich company ?....

 

[sferrin]

If people want to believe there is already a NGAD flying then go on and believe...and prepare to be disappointed.

They don't even have an engine for it yet.

 

[F-2]

It was very sad the the EAP and Rafale A had to wait for the EJ200 and M88 to fly

 

[sferrin]

It was very sad the the EAP and Rafale A had to wait for the EJ200 and M88 to fly

You'll note they didn't fly the YF-22/YF-23 on F100s. Or the F-15 on J79s, etc.

 

[F-2]

It was very sad the the EAP and Rafale A had to wait for the EJ200 and M88 to fly

You'll note they didn't fly the YF-22/YF-23 on F100s. Or the F-15 on J79s, etc.

And they flew the X-32 and X-35 with an F119, the point stands. Having a final engine design isn’t necessarily a show stopper for a tech demonstrator.

 

[sferrin]

It was very sad the the EAP and Rafale A had to wait for the EJ200 and M88 to fly

You'll note they didn't fly the YF-22/YF-23 on F100s. Or the F-15 on J79s, etc.

And they flew the X-32 and X-35 with an F119, the point stands. Having a final engine design isn’t necessarily a show stopper for a tech demonstrator.

It said "F119" on the tag but that's where the similarity ended.

 

[Sundog]

Anybody who has been around here long enough knows that the aircraft that were flown were the result of a DARPA initiative started around 2014/ 2015 to rapidly fly two advanced fighter configurations that would demonstrate advanced fighter technologies. They were not meant to be production aircraft. However, the technologies they demonstrated are intended for NGAD. NGAD itself has not flown. As has been noted up thread, the engines for it aren't even ready yet.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Should tune down the polemic around the flying test beds:

Kendall said NGAD’s origins date back to the Obama administration, when he in his previous role as the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics asked the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency to study what the Air Force would need to ensure it could dominate the skies in a future war.


DARPA’s response, Kendall said, was that the service didn’t just need a lone fighter — it needed a “family of systems,” also encompassing weapons, connections to assets in space, and possibly autonomous drone wingmen.

Kendall then launched a program called the Aerospace Innovation Initiative to start to develop technologies that would form the core of a sixth-generation fighter. That effort led to the creation of experimental prototype aircraft, which Kendall called X-planes, to flesh out those technologies and prove they can work.

Advancements in model-based systems engineering and digitalization also made it possible for both government and contractor design teams to work together much more efficiently, he said.

A nice read for plenty other aspect b/w

US Air Force wants to avoid F-35 mistakes on sixth-gen fighter

The Air Force plans to award a contract to a vendor to build its Next Generation Air Dominance fighter in 2024.

www.defensenews.com

The program for the experimental 'X-planes'/prototypes dates back to a contract-award from 2015, we´re meanwhile 8 years later.

"I started a program called the Aerospace Innovation Initiative, which was to get to the sixth-generation set of technologies we would need for future air dominance, and to build flying prototypes - X-planes, if you will—to bring those technologies forward,” he said.
That initiative resulted in a 2015 contract that produced experimental prototypes and verified new technologies. Those prototypes formed the basis of NGAD, Kendall said.
Since then, he added, “model-based system engineering and digitalization … moved forward a significant amount, so that we could integrate our design teams between the government and contractors much more effectively and efficiently.”
Both the contractors and government officials work in a common design environment, giving the Air Force an “intimate” knowledge of each competitor is doing, Kendall said. The service even has teams working with each company."

Air Force Will Pick Just One NGAD Design in 2024, Kendall Says

Only one design of the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will move into development, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said.

www.airandspaceforces.com

And the first paragraph of the linked article;

"Only one company will be chosen next year as the overall designer and developer of the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) crewed fighter, despite years of prototype work on different designs by several companies, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said May 22."


Do people really think it took 8 years (from 2015 to 2023), to come up with nothing more then "a CAT Bird" or an "X-29- or X-31-like experimental aircraft"?
(The X-31´s first flight btw, took place AFTER the first flights of the YF-22 and YF-23 prototypes/demonstrators from the ATF program.)

Even if the (one) 'full-scale flying demonstator" Will Roper talked about back in 2020 would have been nothing more then "a CAT Bird" (as someone mentioned here) or some kind of 'X-29/X-31-like experimental aircraft', AND if meanwhile there would not be any 'more representative' demonstrators or prototypes flying today for the NGAD-program (like e.g. the YF-22 & YF-23 were for the ATF-program, and/or the X-32 & X-35 were for the JSF-program ), then they´ll have to hurry up to get a at least one 'more representative' NGAD-demonstrator/prototype in the air soon (maybe preferably before the end of this year), if they are going to downselect a company and award it an EMD-contract next year, and if in the mean time they want to have 'a few months' to test-fly (in the real world) such a demonstrator/prototype.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Anybody who has been around here long enough knows that the aircraft that were flown were the result of a DARPA initiative started around 2014/ 2015 to rapidly fly two advanced fighter configurations that would demonstrate advanced fighter technologies. They were not meant to be production aircraft. However, the technologies they demonstrated are intended for NGAD. NGAD itself has not flown. As has been noted up thread, the engines for it aren't even ready yet.

Of course the true 'NGAD' itself has not yet flown, the EMD-contract is not yet awarded. Unless you regard e.g. an YF-22 or an YF-23 as an 'F-22A' (first flight 1997), or an X-32 or an X-35 as an 'F-35A', an 'F-35B' or an 'F-35C'.

 

[pedrospe]

Anybody who has been around here long enough knows that the aircraft that were flown were the result of a DARPA initiative started around 2014/ 2015 to rapidly fly two advanced fighter configurations that would demonstrate advanced fighter technologies. They were not meant to be production aircraft. However, the technologies they demonstrated are intended for NGAD. NGAD itself has not flown. As has been noted up thread, the engines for it aren't even ready yet.

Of course the true 'NGAD' itself has not yet flown, the EMD-contract is not yet awarded. Unless you regard e.g. an YF-22 or an YF-23 as an 'F-22A' (first flight 1997), or an X-32 or an X-35 as an 'F-35A', an 'F-35B' or an 'F-35C'.

If they are taking about only one company for building the NGAD, are they referring to the F-X for the Air Force, or to the FA-XX for the Navy? i always thought that the NGAD mean an new fighter to replace the F-22, and a new naval fighter to replace the F-18, so two fighters not just one, and i doubt one company can build the two.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Anybody who has been around here long enough knows that the aircraft that were flown were the result of a DARPA initiative started around 2014/ 2015 to rapidly fly two advanced fighter configurations that would demonstrate advanced fighter technologies. They were not meant to be production aircraft. However, the technologies they demonstrated are intended for NGAD. NGAD itself has not flown. As has been noted up thread, the engines for it aren't even ready yet.

Of course the true 'NGAD' itself has not yet flown, the EMD-contract is not yet awarded. Unless you regard e.g. an YF-22 or an YF-23 as an 'F-22A' (first flight 1997), or an X-32 or an X-35 as an 'F-35A', an 'F-35B' or an 'F-35C'.

If they are taking about only one company for building the NGAD, are they referring to the F-X for the Air Force, or to the FA-XX for the Navy? i always thought that the NGAD mean an new fighter to replace the F-22, and a new naval fighter to replace the F-18, so two fighters not just one, and i doubt one company can build the two.

It is only about the USAF´s NGAD manned platform/fighter, not about the US Navy´s NGAD manned platform (aka F/A-XX).
They´re stressing that (at EMD award) only one company will be selected as the main developer for that company´s design, and so there will effectively not be a 'digital century series' iterative approach in which other companies later on would be able to come up (again) with (re)new(ed) designs/proposals for an even more advanced NGAD-fighter/platform.
So, that eliminates the possibility of 2 different companies going into EMD, one with a USAF-NGAD fighter-design for the European theater and one with a USAF-NGAD fighter-design for the Pacific theater.
I´m not sure if it also excludes any possibility of the winning company developing both a 'normal/medium'-range (European-theater) variant and a long-range (Pacific) variant of it´s winning design.

 

[Dreamfighter]

If people want to believe there is already a NGAD flying then go on and believe...and prepare to be disappointed.

They don't even have an engine for it yet.

What about a possibility of (a) NGAD-demonstator(s) with 'AETP' prototype-engines, and later on, NGAD EMD test-aircraft with 'NGAP' prototype-engines and NGAD production aircraft with 'NGAP' production-engines?


'Air Force and industry officials say the AETP program was always aimed at NGAD. After testing and tweaking, the AETP engines are expected to be available for production around 2027, just in time to equip the first production-representative NGAD test aircraft.'

From this article, dated April 29 2022

Piecing Together the NGAD Puzzle | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Next-Generation Air Dominance family of systems remains highly classified. But some details are beginning to emerge.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Which not much later changed to:

'The Air Force’s Adaptive Engine Transition Program is demonstrating and maturing key technologies, but it won’t produce the engines that power the service’s Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter, a key acquisition official said Aug. 11.
...
That stands in contrast to previous indications from the Air Force that the AETP engines would be the ones to power the future NGAD fighter.'

From this article, dated August 11 2022

Air Force Looks Beyond AETP for Engines to Power NGAD Fighter | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Air Force's sixth-gen NGAD fighter will use engines developed from the secretive Next Generation Adaptive Propulsion program.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Dreamfighter]

Kendall: Digital Engineering Was ‘Over-Hyped,’ But Can Save 20 Percent on Time and Cost

Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said digital engineering does offer efficiencies but is not the revolutionary tool some made it out to be.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[sferrin]

IMO there's "possible" and "likely". I'm not sure what could be accomplished by building an NGAD powered by F110/135s that you couldn't do for far cheaper with a bunch of test beds. They haven't even awarded the contract to build the airframe. How would they have had one flying years ago anyway?

 

[quellish]

AD1028949, Defense Science Board study on Air Dominance, Executive Summary

 

[X-39]

Totally fictional JetZero "NGAD" fighter paired with totally fictional low poly UCAVs. Looks like they photoshopped some random fanart from Pinterest with the keywords "6th Gen Fighter" and "UCAV" and called it a day.

This New Stealth Tanker Design Looks a Hell of a Lot Like the B-2 Bomber

JetZero’s boomerang-shaped Z-5 tanker would be able to refuel aircraft near the front line while keeping a low profile.

www.popularmechanics.com

Wait... this one I have seen this before! It's!......

 

[Dreamfighter]

They haven't even awarded the contract to build the airframe. How would they have had one flying years ago anyway?

Because they (Roper) made it public. (But maybe he is a liar, I can´t exclude that possibility.)
And one doesn´t need an EMD-contract to build an X-plane or a 'full-scale flying demonstrator'.

YF-23 first flight: August 27, 1990
YF-22 first flight: September 29, 1990
YF-22 declared winner of the ATF fly-off: April 23, 1991
F-22 EMD-contract awarded by the USAF to the Lockheed-Boeing-General Dynamics team: August 8, 1991

If Roper is not a liar, the 'full-scale flying demonstrator' he talked about back in 2020 could be...
A) something like the F-15 SMTD (first flight Sept. 7, 1988) was to the ATF/F-22 program
B) something like the X-31 (first flight Oct. 11, 1990) was to the ATF/F22 program
C) something like 'Tacit Blue' was to the B-2 program
D) something like 'Have Blue' was to the F-117 program
E) something like Boeing´s 'Bird of Prey' was to ... can´t remember.
F) something like a full-grown/scale X-36 would have been to ... can´t remember.
G) something like the X-32 and X-35 were to the JSF/F-35 program

All are possible, but I hope it is D, E, F or G. And I could live with B or C.
Maybe they had in mind (a very few years ago) to move on to EMD sooner, and that got postponed when it was decided not to use the iterative 'digital centuries approach' with the airframe?
Anyway, if there going to award an EMD-contract (late) next year, I´d guess a 'representative demonstrator' (YF-22/23 or X-32/35 style) would fly before the end of the year, unless something that already came/flew earlier already proved/confirmed in the real world all they want to see/get confirmed.

 

[X-39]

They haven't even awarded the contract to build the airframe. How would they have had one flying years ago anyway?

Because they (Roper) made it public. (But maybe he is a liar, I can´t exclude that possibility.)
And one doesn´t need an EMD-contract to build an X-plane or a 'full-scale flying demonstrator'.

YF-23 first flight: August 27, 1990
YF-22 first flight: September 29, 1990
YF-22 declared winner of the ATF fly-off: April 23, 1991
F-22 EMD-contract awarded by the USAF to the Lockheed-Boeing-General Dynamics team: August 8, 1991

If Roper is not a liar, the 'full-scale flying demonstrator' he talked about back in 2020 could be...
A) something like the F-15 SMTD (first flight Sept. 7, 1988) was to the ATF/F-22 program
B) something like the X-31 (first flight Oct. 11, 1990) was to the ATF/F22 program
C) something like 'Tacit Blue' was to the B-2 program
D) something like 'Have Blue' was to the F-117 program
E) something like Boeing´s 'Bird of Prey' was to ... can´t remember.
F) something like a full-grown/scale X-36 would have been to ... can´t remember.
G) something like the X-32 and X-35 were to the JSF/F-35 program

All are possible, but I hope it is D, E, F or G. And I could live with B or C.
Maybe they had in mind (a very few years ago) to move on to EMD sooner, and that got postponed when it was decided not to use the iterative 'digital centuries approach' with the airframe?
Anyway, if there going to award an EMD-contract (late) next year, I´d guess a 'representative demonstrator' (YF-22/23 or X-32/35 style) would fly before the end of the year, unless something that already came/flew earlier already proved/confirmed in the real world all they want to see/get confirmed.

Looking back to make some things clear

Teams will compete to produce the X-plane prototypes, one focused on future Navy operational capabilities and the other on future Air Force operational capabilities. The X-planes will not be Engineering, Manufacturing and Development prototypes or have residual operational capabilities.

.. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-a-xx-f-x-ngad-pca-asfs-news.3536/post-504307

That leaves B, D, E & F as the only possibilities (Tacit Blue was related to BSAX and would have entered service as ISR plattfrom had it not been canned due to some strange reason.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Looking back to make some things clear

Teams will compete to produce the X-plane prototypes, one focused on future Navy operational capabilities and the other on future Air Force operational capabilities. The X-planes will not be Engineering, Manufacturing and Development prototypes or have residual operational capabilities.

.. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-a-xx-f-x-ngad-pca-asfs-news.3536/post-504307

That leaves B, D, E & F as the only possibilities (Tacit Blue was related to BSAX and would have entered service as ISR plattfrom had it not been canned due to some strange reason.

Thanks! I had completely forgotten about the most important part, silly me...
Also for info on BSAX - TC, I didn´t know about that yet. (Or anymore? )

 

[X-39]

Looking back to make some things clear

Teams will compete to produce the X-plane prototypes, one focused on future Navy operational capabilities and the other on future Air Force operational capabilities. The X-planes will not be Engineering, Manufacturing and Development prototypes or have residual operational capabilities.

.. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-a-xx-f-x-ngad-pca-asfs-news.3536/post-504307

That leaves B, D, E & F as the only possibilities (Tacit Blue was related to BSAX and would have entered service as ISR plattfrom had it not been canned due to some strange reason.

Thanks! I had completely forgotten about the most important part, silly me...
Also for info on BSAX - TC, I didn´t know about that yet. (Or anymore? )

New Light Shed On The Once Top Secret Tacit Blue Aircraft By Veteran Program Manager

Northrop's "Whale" stealth battlefield surveillance jet was revolutionary. Now we get a better look into the program from someone who was there.

www.thedrive.com

 

[dark sidius]

Frank Kendall: Air Force Working With 2 Vendors on Next-Gen Air Dominance Program

Looking for the latest Government Contracting News? Read about Frank Kendall: Air Force Working With 2 Vendors on Next-Gen Air Dominance Program.

executivegov.com

 

[X-39]

It has Begun...

U.S. Air Force Sends Out Solicitation For F-22 Successor | Aviation Week Network

A yearslong campaign to define a new U.S. air superiority fighter will reach a climax when a development contact is awarded in 2024.

aviationweek.com

 

[FighterJock]

Will Boeing do the unthinkable and win a fighter program? From what I have seen of the designs I think that they just might, after not winning the JSF competition I think that Boeing has a strong contender this time round.

 

[GTX]

Of course this solicitation has brought out the usual crazies - such as this posting on LinkedIn:



THIS IS TOTALLY FICTIONAL BS INCLUDED IN THIS THREAD ONLY FOR THE LAUGH OR TO MAKE YOU ROLL YOU EYES.

 

[TomS]

Of course this solicitation has brought out the usual crazies - such as this posting on LinkedIn:

View attachment 700208

THIS IS TOTALLY FICTIONAL BS INCLUDED IN THIS THREAD ONLY FOR THE LAUGH OR TO MAKE YOU ROLL YOU EYES.

We really need to stop even mentioning Stavatti. It looks like they're moving into actual fraud territory, claiming contracts and orders of non-existent aircraft and trying to solicit money for their operations.

Stavatti plant preparing for takeoff

John R. Simon doesn’t get much sleep these days. He’s leading the construction of an aerospace plant on property adjacent to the Niagara Falls International Airport and the project has

www.niagara-gazette.com

 

[Arjen]

Visual evidence of plant takeoff

 

[sferrin]

Will Boeing do the unthinkable and win a fighter program? From what I have seen of the designs I think that they just might, after not winning the JSF competition I think that Boeing has a strong contender this time round.

They have a terrible track record for delivering either on time or on budget as of late. Apparently, that kind of thing played a part in the YF-23 losing.

 

[sferrin]

Of course this solicitation has brought out the usual crazies - such as this posting on LinkedIn:

View attachment 700208

THIS IS TOTALLY FICTIONAL BS INCLUDED IN THIS THREAD ONLY FOR THE LAUGH OR TO MAKE YOU ROLL YOU EYES.

Apprently these guys are going to skip the 6th gen and go right for the 7th & 8th gen:

Io Aircraft - Hypersonic

www.ioaircraft.com