Ukrainian Conflict NEWS ONLY Topic poll

[overscan (PaulMM)]

What to do?

 

[isayyo2]

It's a practical "containment zone" for our site IMO

 

[Orionblamblam]

Leave open, moderate... but do so fairly and evenly. Nuke the trolls, but be reasonable with reasonable discussion. Sometimes a news item is the sort of thing that a reasonable discussion can form around, the discussion not itself being "news." Some new weapon or tactic or some such, or discussion of a point of law... not news, but also not bad to discuss.

Alternate: leave the news thread as a pure news thread, with moderates being sticklers. BUT have another "discussion" thread where things can wander. Just nuke the trolls and angryposts. We're on the edge of World War III... people *gotta* talk about it or they'll burst.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I do agree in principle Scott, but once you diverge from strictly news it becomes a complicated judgement call on the moderators as to what is acceptable deviation and what isn't on a post by post basis, which as you can see lends itself to accusations of bias in the moderators.

Moderators do have our own views on what is happening. The majority of moderators (and members) are from Western countries.

 

[kaiserd]

If moderators are prepared to commit their time and effort and police it accordingly then maybe it can survive as “news only” topic.
If I was facing that likely level of ongoing work I’d suggest locking it as perhaps not really under the core remit of the site (and one way or another still likely to be attempts by some to raise then ride this as a hobby horse under other topics/ discussions you’ll end up having to clear up).

 

[Dagger]

Lock topic. Has nothing to do with what this forum is supposed to be about.

War is terrible but that also applies to others wars presently going on (Yemen, Lybia, Syria, Turks against Kurds, ..........).

If you allow basically political discussions about Ukraine war then you open a can of worms and soon there will be politically tainted discussions on every conflict in the world.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

I'm curious, how do you not take an existential threat personally? How do you remove emotion from these...proceedings? I think the current RoEs ask too much of the likes of myself but are paradoxically necessary, which is why I'm (largely) not posting currently. Closing the thread though, risks an almightily unpleasant elephant in the room situation and spillage elsewhere. A dilemma!

 

[shedofdread]

I don't post much but I do read a lot and there's something to be said for reading the opinions of others; you might not agree but it gives you a more rounded view.
I'm more than aware of the time required to moderate such a thread so if it stays open and is moderated (as was my vote), it has to be if those thus tasked have the time. If they do, then I thank them for that work.
A forum such as this made up of intelligent, professional people makes for a good way to collate news from around the world. News and opinions and perspectives that one might not otherwise see.

 

[zen]

It's a tough one and easy for things to spiral out of control. I've seen such before elsewhere decades ago now and it is corrosive. It's always corrosive and subject to hijacking, posturing, political diatribes and accusations.
People end up getting banned, hated, ostracised etc......

And certain types cannot but always drag it to that outcome. It's in their nature.

Moderators do not have an easy task with this. My respect for their efforts. Even if I too fall afoul of the vortex.

The temptation to involve oneself is strong, even when it's just to warn of the dangers or hypocrisy of moralising.

I voted lock it and make it explicit on this site that the conversation ought to held elsewhere.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Perhaps the answer is do both. Somewhat like the AUKUS thread, lock it periodically for a cool-off/moderator rest period before a period of resumption and so on?

 

[Foo Fighter]

It's an emotional topic which is obvious when you look around. Keep this topic news only BUT open a thread for a more open discussion. Getting the eu to commit to using less Russian oil/gas and moving away from it totally in short order while prompting the eu nations to agree to honour military investment commitments is pretty staggering and it blew my mind for a start. While the Russian military is no longer the force it once was, it is STILL pretty staggering how much they have to put into the field, even if they cannot supply it properly in the face of financial sanctions.

Most of us here are morally and emotionally affected by this conflict and the effects on our daily lives will go on probably decades and it is only natural we will talk about that.

In there somewhere is the effect it will be having on Russian military effectiveness, which is military in nature and something politicians and military leaders alike will have to consider in planning future campaigns. Think of the emotional effects on Vietnam veterans for example.

It may not seem like news but it IS relevant.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Noted. However this forum was historically focused on technology rather than military operations or politics. Nobody ever died from a bomb dropped or a round fired by an unbuilt project.

 

[drejr]

There's no shortage of places to get news about this war (of course they're mainly reporting on each other), and I haven't seen any previously unknown technology come out of it.

If it's going to be news only there should be some kind of bright line so people don't feel their posts are being deleted arbitrarily.

I think it's going to be very difficult to maintain a decent level of conversation considering there's an intense information war going on designed to cause political arguments and fracturing.

Wars are too depressing for me to argue much about them.

 

[Arjen]

News, no editorials. Include editorials, and you get flame wars by proxy. If evaluating news for reliability takes up too much effort from moderators, lock thread. There are plenty of news channels outside the forum.

 

[starviking]

Noted. However this forum was historically focused on technology rather than military operations or politics. Nobody ever died from a bomb dropped or a round fired by an unbuilt project.

But the technology goes into successful projects too, which go into combat, which requires new tactics and countermeasures, bringing new technology from successful and unsuccessful projects…

Combat is, unfortunately, part of the technological loop.

 

[CiTrus90]

Not only do I think the specific news thread needs to be removed, but I think that the moderations needs to be stepped up and users should start to get actively banned.

As said by other people already, the topic has nothing to do with what this forum is about, and even in the form of a mere news repository there will always be people who will post the news they "feel" is right.
Exactly as previously seen with the Covid news thread, people will climb onto mirrors to justify their "feelings" and their worldview, and will always find some other more or less reputable source and journalist that will reflect them and give them an echo chamber as justification.
Some of these takes might be harmless, some others will definitely be malicious.

Who will call the shots? Clearly the mods, which will in turn be exposed to more calls of partisanship to either the people more to the left or more to the right of their position, giving way to accusations and other unpleasentness. If this is something the whole moderators' team is willing to face, then great. You have my respect, I would neither have the patience nor the strength to be arsed by it.

The same goes for the alternative history topics. In my opinion they add absolutely nothing of value to this site, they just polarize some users against others and give space for people to bring forth their pet peeves and ideas, regardless of how sound they might be or how much thought has gone into them. The only positive aspect to that section that I can see, is that's it like a "sand pit" where kids can go to play without disturbing the other sections and threads of this site.

And so far, these are just issues on how to manage the moderation on a site that should be only about unbuilt projects and primarily about aviation.

Now if I may be allowed to take a step back and share what I think is the bigger picture (from a moral point of view if you will) then...

If you think you can remain apolitical or navigate above everything else without the need of getting involved, I implore you to consider the implications of what allowing some people to spread falsehoods and propaganda here will be.

Also, you may have not realised it yet, or you may think this doesn't involve you and will not involve you either in the future: we - all of us - are at war.
If you don't understand that this is the case you are sadly mistaken.
And there is no shade of grey here: Russia is the aggressor and the Ukrainians are fighting for their survival and for values that we in the West take for granted.

We all like democracy, right? We all like freedom? We think every individual has a right to life, to happiness? To self determination? Now consider what happens when we allow some to use these words, these news and empty them of all significance, when they are perverted to propagate a narrative without any of the undergoing critical thinking that these events should require.
Life is difficult. World events are complicated.
Do you think everyone on this site is smart enough to understand the differences between truth and propaganda?
Do you think we are all able to have a civilised exchange of opinions, and get a better understanding of different worldviews?
Is everyone able to be respectful of other people's sufferings?

Do you think you can have a polite exchange of views with people that write they would gladly nuke Poland and invade Germany?

You know, when I was back in school and went to visit Auschwitz and Birkenau, the immediate thought I had, after obvioulsy being horrified, is how something like that could have happened. Afterall, Europe was a civilised place in the 30s and 40s, or was it not? People were smart and many of those same things we enjoy today were enjoyed back then.
Well, now I think I understand how nazi Germany came to be. How the fascists took power in Italy.
They just had to be given space. To be treated as if their point of view was legitimate and a valuable part of the democratic discourse. They could be ignored when what they said caused discomfort among the rest of the civilised people. They had their grievances that needed to be taken into consideration afterall.
And from allowing them even that small foothold, they then spread like a cancer among society.
Because it's easy to be fascinated by might. It's easier to deny other people's sufferings. To dehumanize them. To negate what we think only we deserve. To view war as if it were just a sports event.

I like this site. And I like truth.
I like truth more than I like this site to be fair.
I don't think there should be a space for people to share their opinions on the war, or report the news that best suit their beliefs about it here. They can do it somewhere else.
Rather, they should do it somewhere else, because that would mean they would need to take their fat asses off their chairs and start doing what they believe is right. And if what they believe is bullshit, they will be called out for it and receive the necessary pushback they deserve.
And in a way, propagating some of those news and opinions here would be a way to legitimize them, when they should be ostracized instead, since they go against a core set of values that we all claim to follow.
Yes, even if they are just written on an aviation website.

 

[Hood]

The war is throwing everything into focus, even the purpose of this forum.

I'd like to think this is a forum to discuss projects and related defence technologies. We all know the pace of project finds has slowed, there not an inexhaustible mine of unbuilt aircraft projects. But that doesn't mean we should drift off into an endless round of scuttlebutt, chewing the cud and picking fights until the next interesting project pops up.

I don't think the Ukrainian news thread is completely relevant - let's remember it started as a lessons learned thread but quickly got pruned to news only due to hyperactive responses. Certainly it's not in the right section of the forum, the military section is for:

Discussion about historic or current tanks, ships, and other non-aerospace military technologies - not unbuilt projects

Doesn't look like warzone news reportage is listed there or anywhere else on the site either.

I know a pressure relief valve is useful but over the past couple of months there has been an upsurge in concerns around non-core areas such The Bar and Alternate History and where/if/how, they can fit and be of value to the forum. Some would say 'nuke them from orbit' and others would take a nuanced view, but its a simmering divide that is evident and ongoing.

As for my view, historians make a better job of evaluating events that have occurred rather than trying to report events that are happening. Maybe in six months time we'll be better able to take a more military technology approach to what is currently happened and have some meaningful discussion on that.

 

[Archibald]

All I can say is that, after having so many posts nuked into oblivion, I will avoid wasting my time posting in that thread (works both ways, TBH).

 

[GeorgeA]

Lock that topic and this one too. It’s going off the rails for all the same reasons, since you guys just can’t stop yourselves.

 

[kaiserd]

I think the poll results so far so what many of us would like to happen; however a lot of our comments reflect scepticism on if that is reasonably achievable without undue hassle for moderaters.
Ultimately this site is responsible for the content what it allows contributors to put up and chooses not to remove; in a context where some contributors are knowingly or unknowningly attempting to spread propaganda for a very live real conflict via this site moderating all of this is clearly a difficult job.

 

[lostcosmonauts]

I value the thread and dip in and out but moderating it must be an onerous, depressing & a time sink so I’d vote to delete everything in it without favour to any viewpoint and lock.

 

[kitnut617]

In today's information environment, everyone is only reading what others want you to read. To my view, everything is suspect -----

Lock the thread!

 

[martinbayer]

Lock topic. Has nothing to do with what this forum is supposed to be about.

True, but in my understanding that's also what The Bar section is intended for. I suggest to move the thread there.

 

[martinbayer]

I do agree in principle Scott, but once you diverge from strictly news it becomes a complicated judgement call on the moderators as to what is acceptable deviation and what isn't on a post by post basis, which as you can see lends itself to accusations of bias in the moderators.

Moderators do have our own views on what is happening. The majority of moderators (and members) are from Western countries.

Move it to The Bar.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Topic is moved to The Bar.

 

[Archibald]

All I can say is that, after having so many posts nuked into oblivion, I will avoid wasting my time posting in that thread (works both ways, TBH).

Facepalm. So we can't even discuss the best way of smuggling MiG-29s into Ukraine.
Didn't knew that was a political topic.

I understand the basic reasons, but the result is brand new levels of absurdness.

Nuke that fucking thread into oblivion.

 

[martinbayer]

Topic is moved to The Bar.

Thanks, Paul - although I appreciate that the topic is not germane to the core purpose of this forum, I believe this discussion benefits greatly from the aerospace and defense background of its esteemed members and certainly furthers my insights and understanding.

 

[dan_inbox]

I do agree in principle Scott, but once you diverge from strictly news it becomes a complicated judgement call on the moderators as to what is acceptable deviation and what isn't on a post by post basis, which as you can see lends itself to accusations of bias in the moderators.

1) IMO it is not a complicated judgement at all to see who is murdering civilians wholesale.
Claiming anything else out of "objectiveness" claim is hiding behind one's finger -- and not being so honest.

2) it's not nearly as if both sides had equal wrongs. One independant country is aggressed by a dictator. Period.
UN, international law, etc, there is no doubt. Why pretend the other side has any "equal rights" here on SPF ?

3) taking it to the bar is a good decision. However in the bar there is no real reason to stick to "news only", and that opens a whole new Pandora's box.

And again congrats and thanks to the team, for the many hours of gentle moderating in the face of trolls' onslaught.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

1) IMO it is not a complicated judgement at all to see who is murdering civilians wholesale.
Claiming anything else out of "objectiveness" claim is hiding behind one's finger -- and not being so honest.

2) it's not nearly as if both sides had equal wrongs. One independant country is aggressed by a dictator. Period.
UN, international law, etc, there is no doubt. Why pretend the other side has any "equal rights" here on SPF ?

3) taking it to the bar is a good decision. However in the bar there is no real reason to stick to "news only", and that opens a whole new Pandora's box.

And again congrats and thanks to the team, for the many hours of gentle moderating in the face of trolls' onslaught.

I don't support Russia's actions by any means but when it comes to all of this talk of the UN, international law, and morality does the western world really have that much of a high ground to stand on anymore? We've consistently let the Chinese walk all over us and get away with murder yet we'll beat our chests about holding the Russians to account and everyone will add a Ukrainian flag to their Twitter account, pour Russian vodka down the sink, and then pretend like they're part of the solution. Why shouldn't the Russians be able to get their say here?

All I know is that I pity the average Russian citizen now expected to choose between some sort of loyalty to an increasingly broken western society and loyalty to a corrupt increasingly authortarian government. Nobody has their people's interest at heart anymore if they ever did.

 

[BullpupRafale]

1) IMO it is not a complicated judgement at all to see who is murdering civilians wholesale.
Claiming anything else out of "objectiveness" claim is hiding behind one's finger -- and not being so honest.

2) it's not nearly as if both sides had equal wrongs. One independant country is aggressed by a dictator. Period.
UN, international law, etc, there is no doubt. Why pretend the other side has any "equal rights" here on SPF ?

3) taking it to the bar is a good decision. However in the bar there is no real reason to stick to "news only", and that opens a whole new Pandora's box.

And again congrats and thanks to the team, for the many hours of gentle moderating in the face of trolls' onslaught.

I don't support Russia's actions by any means but when it comes to all of this talk of the UN, international law, and morality does the western world really have that much of a high ground to stand on anymore? We've consistently let the Chinese walk all over us and get away with murder yet we'll beat our chests about holding the Russians to account and everyone will add a Ukrainian flag to their Twitter account, pour Russian vodka down the sink, and then pretend like they're part of the solution. Why shouldn't the Russians be able to get their say here?

All I know is that I pity the average Russian citizen now expected to choose between some sort of loyalty to an increasingly broken western society and loyalty to a corrupt increasingly authortarian government. Nobody has their people's interest at heart anymore if they ever did.

Western world does not hold itself accountable for actions itself committed while judging Russia for very act west itself committed.

Be it in past century or during this century as western world does not have moral high ground when its condemnations are unethical considering what is Russia being condemned for is what western world did in living memory thus disingenuous to the rotten core.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/stories/brussels052199.htm

CNN - NATO bomb reportedly damages hospital, ambassadors' homes - May 20, 1999

CNN In-Depth Specials - Visions of China - Asian Superpower: China-U.S. rivalry

The night the US bombed a Chinese embassy

The CIA blamed bad mapping but China has never believed that the strikes were an accident.

www.bbc.com

NATO missile hit the area between two apartment buildings and elementary school "Svetozar Marković Toza".

Amiriyah bombing 30 years on: ‘No one remembers’ the victims

Families continue fight for justice three decades after deadliest incident of civilian casualties caused by US in Iraq.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[sublight_]

Excuse me, for the 2nd time I ask, how do we know all these "opinions" are not coming from a Russian troll factory?

 

[BullpupRafale]

Excuse me, for the 2nd time I ask, how do we know all these "opinions" are not coming from a Russian troll factory?

Same can be said how can we be sure some of those opinion doesn't come from Ukrainian troll factory or that from western world.

 

[sublight_]

Excuse me, for the 2nd time I ask, how do we know all these "opinions" are not coming from a Russian troll factory?

Same can be said how can we be sure some of those opinion doesn't come from Ukrainian troll factory or that from western world.

I have been here 10 years. Please find the post where I promote "supreme capitalist America".

 

[BullpupRafale]

Excuse me, for the 2nd time I ask, how do we know all these "opinions" are not coming from a Russian troll factory?

Same can be said how can we be sure some of those opinion doesn't come from Ukrainian troll factory or that from western world.

I have been here 10 years. Please find the post where I promote "supreme capitalist America".

Your reply doesn't make sense and is deflection from rhetorical question.

 

[Rhinocrates]

You've mentioned the ability to ban individuals from specific threads? If that's the case, I'd say leave the topic open, moderate, limit all comments to brief clarifications or quotes, ban recidivist violators from the thread.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This is all very meta, having trouble brewing in a topic about how to handle a troublesome topic.

 

[TomcatViP]

At least we can then come to a conclusion on that: do your best as much as you can feel comfortable devoiding time to it. And then we can all thank you.
The thread is, as noted by many, useful. There isn't much other place where we can have this instant mix of informations, 24/24h that have the right angle on what is our core interest.

 

[Dreamfighter]

I may have missed some (meanwhile deleted) posts, but imho the Ukranian thread wasn´t going that bad/uncivilized considering the present WAR circumstances... Even the Fawlty Towers sketch was not referenced yet.

 

[uk 75]

The dilemma for this site remains the same.
The obvious redesign would be to limit posts to purely technical discussions of unbuilt and projected weapons.
Problem is that in many cases these were unbuilt for political or economic reasons.
In the spirit of the times some here cannot bear to read any other than their own views on "political" subjects.
Fine by me if the site just becomes a technical library I will still use it.

 

[jeffb]

What's happening with the Ukraine Crisis NEWS ONLY thread? Tons of new vids out but none of them getting posted. People not interested?