The Other Mirages

[Keyboard Commando]

I had a thread on Alternatehistory.com a while back regarding this, but I thought I might get some better perspectives over here. After the Mirage III and V there were many Dassault projects to eventually replace them but as we know that only happened with the Rafale's entry into service. The Mirage F2 and F3 were canned for the F1, nothing came of the Mirage G series, and the Mirage 4000 was too late. How could any of these jets come into service, potential operators, and how would it affect the development of other jets later on.

 

[royabulgaf]

If the Mirage 4000 was built, I could see it in French AF service as a Mirage IV replacement, and in the export market I would see it competing for F-15 and Su-27 orders. I could imagine it in Saudi and Indian service.

 

[Eirigi]

.

 

[Archibald]

Between 1959 and 1979 Dassault churned a lot of prototypes. The bottom line was that the Armée de l'Air RFPs were unrealistic. The Mirage F1 should never have existed in the first place: at the time there VSTOL Mirages and swept wing and VG prototypes, some very successful technically but most of them unadequate to the AdA true needs. The Mirage F1 was designed and build on Dassault private funding and later they managed to sell it to the AdA.
The Mirage 2000 was to be build for export with the 4000 for the AdA - this time it was French President Giscard that reverted the deal - 2000 for the AdA, 4000 for export.

 

[Keyboard Commando]

The 601 Mirage 2000 that were manufactured (an aircraft without any commonality with the Mirage III series, even the aerodynamics are in fact quite different) are here to prove wrong this statement.

It was a generalization but it didn't fully replace them nor was it as commercially successful, I just wanted some opinions on these other Dassault projects.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

There were no real technical issues with the Mirage F2 or Mirage G, but they were relatively complex and expensive, partly due to the use of TF30/TF306 turbofan engines, and exports would have been at risk of veto from the US. The Mirage III sold well through being simple and cheap - I can't see much of an export market for the Mirage F2 or Mirage G series. Mirage F1 was a bit stale technically and didn't too too great on the export market, let down by its rather old engine and conventional design. Why not wait a couple of years for an F-16, not too much more and an entire generation more advanced?

 

[Eirigi]

.

 

[von hitchofen]

474 out of 720 produced were exported. Let's compare with export sales of Saab-37 Viggen or Panavia Tornado, for instance... 287 Mirage 2000 out of a 601 were exported.

Maybe the export sales of the SEPECAT Jaguar would be a better comparison....

 

[Apophenia]

... Mirage F2 or Mirage G ... were relatively complex and expensive, partly due to the use of TF30/TF306 turbofan engines, and exports would have been at risk of veto from the US.

Makes you wonder if Dassault mightn't have been better off with the RR Spey for those designs?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

... Mirage F2 or Mirage G ... were relatively complex and expensive, partly due to the use of TF30/TF306 turbofan engines, and exports would have been at risk of veto from the US.

Makes you wonder if Dassault mightn't have been better off with the RR Spey for those designs?

I doubt the Spey would have been cheaper, and it would just have swapped a US veto to a UK veto.

 

[uk 75]

There is an excellent new kit out of the Mirage III vstol

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DASSAULT-MIRAGE-III-V-01-VTOL-MODELSVIT-PLASTIC-KIT-1-72-READ-/121755274795

If it had gone into service, it would have carried the AN52 bomb (like the Jaguars that actually did). I have no idea how it
would have done as there was a lot of engines under the fuselage, so it would have had to be a wing mounted.

I love the VSTOL and swing wing 60s jets. An RAF, Bundeswehr and Armee de l'air with these projects actually in
service would have looked fantastic. Totally impossible, but that's what dreams are made of.

 

[uk 75]

The French Air Force needs something like Mirage 2000 in 1975 to 80 instead of Mirage F1 and Jaguar.
Perhaps it could evolve sooner from Mirage III.
Like the RAF the AdA got carried away with supersonic vstol but didnt grasp the
nettle of affordable alternatives.

 

[Archibald]

The French Air Force needs something like Mirage 2000 in 1975 to 80 instead of Mirage F1 and Jaguar.
Perhaps it could evolve sooner from Mirage III.
Like the RAF the AdA got carried away with supersonic vstol but didnt grasp the
nettle of affordable alternatives.

In that case you need something between the F1 (Atar 9K50) and the F3 (TF306E) sized around the M53-5 with 8500 kgp right off 1967-68.
Somewhat a Mirage F1-M53 except optimized around the M53 from the drawing board hence a little bigger and heavier.

 

[H_K]

The French Air Force needs something like Mirage 2000 in 1975 to 80 instead of Mirage F1 and Jaguar.
Perhaps it could evolve sooner from Mirage III.

Question is how much could Dassault accelerate fly-by-wire?

• M53 first flight (on Mirage F1): December 1974
• First Super 530F firing trials (on Mirage F1): 1976
• Mirage 2000-01 prototype first flight: March 1978

Not sure it was possible to accelerate development of the M53 engine or Super 530F missile by much... these would be critical elements of the complete Mirage 2000 system. So best case if you accelerate FBW development by say 3-4 years, you might be looking at a Mirage 2000 first flight in 1975 and service entry in 1979-80, 4-5 years earlier than the actual 1984 service entry date.

1979 would be the same time as the first F-16A deliveries.

 

[Archibald]

There was a Mirage IIIB that was a FBW testbed, augmented stability and the like.

 

[MadRat]

The Mirage F.1 they needed was a hybrid Jaguar/F.1 variant. M53 engine, but square intakes with commonality parts with the Jag. Rugged landing gear and all the extra luggage of the Jaguar wing and gun locations. Becomes a better Jag than the Jag. Allows for more options of gun fits. Optional nose built around ground attack. The Jag engines were pretty poor for its duty. The M53 was more powerful and modern

 

[lancer21]

I think from the list the most likely and logical, all-french options are the Mirage G8 and Mirage-4000. The first would do what roughly Tornado ADV/IDS, Su-24, F-111 do in one package, while the Mirage-4000 would be an F-15E equivalent.
But what has to give to have them built? Can the french somehow get more money to buy them? The G8 could replace the 50 Mirage-5 and 200 Jaguar in aquisition plans, while the Mirage-4000 would replace the 86 Mirage-2000N and 75 Mirage-2000Ds.

And i think foreign buyers with money would stampede trying to get their hands on them once firm french orders are confirmed.

 

[Pioneer]

Makes you wonder if Dassault mightn't have been better off with the RR Spey for those designs?

If anything, it would most likely, had less political bullshit from the U.S., who would have happily killed any French export of the Mirage F2 and G8 on the ground of they're using the U.S. TF30/TF306! or if a Mirage F2 and G8 was competing against an American aircraft for a contract....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

The Mirage F.1 they needed was a hybrid Jaguar/F.1 variant. M53 engine, but square intakes with commonality parts with the Jag. Rugged landing gear and all the extra luggage of the Jaguar wing and gun locations. Becomes a better Jag than the Jag. Allows for more options of gun fits. Optional nose built around ground attack. The Jag engines were pretty poor for its duty. The M53 was more powerful and modern

The Mirage F1, itself, had a very reputable rugged landing gear system. In fact, the twin-wheel nose gear of the Mirage F1 would most likely fared better than that of the single-wheel Jag's....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[MadRat]

Maybe I am wrong, but M88 in a Mirage F.1 was a nice complement to Rafale in High-Low export offers.

 

[Archibald]

Nope, Mirage F1 production stopped in 1992 and the 2000, 15 years later in 2007 with the last Greek planes. On paper at least the 2000-5, 5Mk2 and -9 could have been a low end to Rafale. Unfortunately since the latter did not sold until 2014, Dassault sacrificed the 2000 to focuse all their energies on the Rafale - no internal competition. Lockheed can afford a F-16 / F-35 duo, Dassault can't.

 

[Archibald]

Attached is a grab bag of Mirage F1 vs F3 dimensions and weight - extracted from Liébert & Buyck Mirage F1 landmark book. Also Atar 9K50 vs M53-2 vs TF306E.

 

[Lascaris]

Nope, Mirage F1 production stopped in 1992 and the 2000, 15 years later in 2007 with the last Greek planes. On paper at least the 2000-5, 5Mk2 and -9 could have been a low end to Rafale. Unfortunately since the latter did not sold until 2014, Dassault sacrificed the 2000 to focuse all their energies on the Rafale - no internal competition. Lockheed can afford a F-16 / F-35 duo, Dassault can't.

Some of the disgruntled customers would say that Dassault wanted to force customers on Rafale between stopping production of 2000 and asking for exorbitant prices for modernization of existing aircraft.

But there is no reason you cannot have a Mirage 2000-5 Mk3 with RBE-2 and Spectra. Or if you want to be even more creative with an uprated M88 in place of th3 M53.

 

[MadRat]

The M53 was a larger volume and considerably larger engine overall than M88.

Funny enough it would have taken three M88 to get near the thrust of two P&W F100. Can you imagine Mirage 4000 as a tri-engine?