South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[curious george]

More F/book group postings...

*proto of 107mm mrl launcher
*proto's of recce(?) mamba sabre vehicles
*some radar system on Samil platform(forerunner of system on kynos aljaba platform?)

 

[curious george]

Some more vehicles and other oddities from back then.Also foundon f/book:

*more pics of the Tapir
*an experimental multi-rpg launcher
*unimog sabre
*some cart that if memory serves,I read that used as a fast gettaway for a team on a sabotage mission

 

[curious george]

Havent seen this before either.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Great stuff George.

 

[curious george]

Never seen this one before...

 

[Rickshaw]

What is it, on top of the arm? As the title of the picture is "ground shout" could it be some sort of loud speaker system?

 

[curious george]

What is it, on top of the arm? As the title of the picture is "ground shout" could it be some sort of loud speaker system?

Indeed it was,dont know too much about the system tho. Would be employed alongside EW teams,etc.

References are made to use in some books during the SA involvement with Unita in southern Angola during the fighting to stop the FAPLA/Cuban/Soviet advance of late '87. The system was employed by the mil spooks as a propaganda tool and for other "dark arts",eg telling the unsophisticated fapla troops of the terrible lot that was going to befall them,and eg the night after a battle/skirmish playing the recordings of hyena's,etc. Being deeply superstitious,etc the sounds mimicked the scavangers feasting on the dead bodies of their comrades,etc.Anecdotally this also slightly backfired as the UNITA troops werent particularly enthralled either.

Based on this pic tho("M" plates were only intro'd sometime in the late 80's and early 90's somewhere)I would also imagine its use during the riot/crowd control operations prevelant for the SA army in that period.

 

[curious george]

On the topic of the casspir,some lessor known specimens:

 

[kaiserbill]

The Plofadder was a system that rocketed an explosive filled hose over a minefield. This was detonated, leaving a path through the minefield.

The groundshout was indeed used for psychological warfare.

I'd never seen these vehicles before. Thanks.

 

[curious george]

New to me anyway,anybody with any ideas or further info?

 

[swan101]

The "ground shout" Casspir was used by 101bn towards the end of the bushwar. It had a very big alternator for the coms system. In the top of the arm were speakers. I think 16 in all
It was limited in the bush as it was top heavy

 

[kaiserbill]

Does anyone know anything about this vehicle?

It appears to be an Eland with it's turret removed, considerably more armour fitted, and an extendable mast with sensors/optics fitted.

Picture found on the net, Armyrecognition, and appears to be from around 10 (?) years ago.

 

[CostasTT]

Does anyone know anything about this vehicle?

It appears to be an Eland with it's turret removed, considerably more armour fitted, and an extendable mast with sensors/optics fitted.

Picture found on the net, Armyrecognition, and appears to be from around 10 (?) years ago.

It is called Raptor. Here you can find some information on it, plus some more pictures.

 

[kaiserbill]

Does anyone know anything about this vehicle?

It appears to be an Eland with it's turret removed, considerably more armour fitted, and an extendable mast with sensors/optics fitted.

Picture found on the net, Armyrecognition, and appears to be from around 10 (?) years ago.

It is called Raptor. Here you can find some information on it, plus some more pictures.

Nice link Costa.
Thanks.

 

[CostasTT]

Does anyone know anything about this vehicle?

It appears to be an Eland with it's turret removed, considerably more armour fitted, and an extendable mast with sensors/optics fitted.

Picture found on the net, Armyrecognition, and appears to be from around 10 (?) years ago.

It is called Raptor. Here you can find some information on it, plus some more pictures.

Nice link Costa.
Thanks.

You're welcome. I'd almost forgotten about it, until you posted the question. I found the pics I had from Army Guide (the small size was the clue, ;D ) and the rest is history.

 

[kaiserbill]

The extra armour feature would be a very interesting addition to a conventional AML 90 or Eland 90 with turret.

There must be close to a thousand AML 60/90's still in service worldwide.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post no. 205. I was in S.A. last year, amongst other things visiting family in Bloemfontein. I also visited the Armour Museum and had a look at this thing. Very interesting. The track is about 2 meters with the wheelbase about 5.2 meters (1.4 x 2.4 x 1.4). Overall length is close to 8 meters. The suspension consists of live axles on coil springs and longitudinal and transverse stabilizing arms. The third axle is located by a kind of trailing yoke. The front axles look like American Rockwell units?! The engine is a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke unit, non-turbocharged as far as I could see; possibly an 8V71. Transmission I don't know. It is unfortunately in a decrepid condition with some missing parts (drive shafts, some steering shafts, possibly also engine components).

I would guess that it was built in the seventies, possibly as one of the contenders for the Ratel, although there is no record of this. Its biggest draw-back was the poor forward vision due to the high bonnet line. If this thing had been built in 1974 or later, they could have used independent suspension components from the French VAB. Combined with a low profile engine like the Deutz BF8L413 and the same automatic Renk transmission used in the Ratel, it could have been a very successful vehicle, imo.

 

[kaiserbill]

Interesting reply, Herman.

The vehicle is interesting, and seeing as it has various APC/ICFV features, I echo your sentiment that it was probably around the Ratel programme era, and might well have been a prototype for that programme.

Did you take any interesting pictures, or glean any interesting tidbits whilst you were there?

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #349:
The list of vehicles which were tested in the period January to October 1972 to choose what was to become the Ratel, is interesting:

The Unimog 413 was a simple armoured body on a Unimog chassey. It was developd in the mid-sixries and went into production in 1969. Small vehicle; only about 7 tons loaded.

The Panhard M3 was based on the AML. First production in 1971. It was therefore new in 1971. Also a small APC; only 6.1 tons loaded. There is a vehicle at the Lesakeng Museum regerred to as the Bosbok. It is clearly based on the M3 but according to the specs, it is fitted with a 154 hp Americam GM, 6 cylinder engine. This is much more powerful than the M3's 90 hp, air-cooled, flat-four. This also suggests a different transmission. I would like to suggest that the vehicle at Lesakeng is actually the "Onsbok". The M3 was referred to as the "Bosbok" (Bushbuck) while a translation of "Onsbok" would be "our buck". The Onsbok was a locally built (Sandock Austral) derivative of the original M3 and possibly served as a basis for the later Panhard VCR series of 4x4 and 6x6 APC's

The Panhard M4 (Klonkie): This is interesting. Panhard developed a series of 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8 armoured vehicles in the early seventies. The combat weight of the 4x4 was 10.900 kg, it was 5.3 meters long, 2.5 meters wide and was powered by a Berliet 6.9 liter, V8 diesel developing 165 hp or a 185 hp Baudouin diesel of 185hp. This prototype of this vehicle was however only presented in 1973, according to the "Vehicule de l' Avant Blinde" booklet "Unclassified no. 5", by Stefan Marx. The vehicle tested in S.A. therfore had to have been a very early prototype.

The Berliet VXB was developd in the late sixties and was first shown in 1969. A number of these vehicles were produced for the French Gendarmerie from 1973. Length 6 meters, width 2.5 meters and combat weight 12.7 tons. 170hp Berliet V800 diesel. This vehicle is very similar to the Ratel: same driver setup, engine at left-rear, doors in sides and next to engine at back. The Ratel is actually kind of a VXB on steroids: extra axle added for increased hull length to allow a two-man turret to be fitted while still retaining enough place for 8 dismounts.

The MAN Buffel prototype apparently later became the Ratel.

The Engesa 6x6 was developed during the early seventies (first prototype in 1970), in Brazil. It went into production in 1974. The protype tested in S.A in 1972 would also have been a pre-production prototype. This vehicle looks a lot like the Ratel but it is slightly smaller and the technical lay-out is completely different.

The last vehicle, called the Sprinkaan, is a bit of an enigma. It was built by the Technical Service Corps of the SA Army. I am convinced the dilapidated 8x8 vehicle at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein is the Sprinkaan. The technology is typical late sixties, early seventies, the use of American components would have been very unusual in a vehicle of later construction and the build quality seems to be pretty "cheap and cheerful" compared to the highly sophisticated vehicles produced in SA during the late seventies and the eighties.

P.S: By the way, there is an excellent photograph in the same booklet by Marx of a 6x6 Panhard vehicle with the powerpack at the right-front, driver next to it, a crew position behind the driver and an AML 90 turret offset to the left, at the rear of the vehicle. Clearly visible painted on the front of the vehicle is the name "Boerboel", with the registration number R99995! The terrain in which the vehicle was photographed is typically South African. This was clearly a derivative of the 6x6 Panhard prototype developed in the early seventies. It was obviously also tested in SA. This vehicle never saw production; it is very different to later Panhard armoured cars like the ERC.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #544
I took some pictures but nothing that hasn't been posted on this forum before. Unfortunately I become so engrossed in the "Sprinkaan", I forgot to take more pictures. Just before I left, I spoke to a warrant officer who told me that the 8x8 is "major xxx's baby". I assume the major is part of the School of Armour and that he wants to rebuild it. I am not optimistic about this however. The thing will require major refurbishing and I doubt very much if the money or man power is available for this. I also doubt whether the current powers to be would be interested in providing resources to rebuild a prototype from the apartheid era.

 

[kaiserbill]

Herman, in reply 291 pg20, I speculated that the dilapidated 8x8 vehicle might be the Springfield Bussing Buffel.
I'm beginning to think that perhaps your reasoning that it may be the Springkaan entry into the Ratel competition may be more correct.

I've seen it mentioned that the Springfield Bussing Buffel, which won the competition and was further developed into the Ratel, is on display at the gates of either the Armour Museum or the School of Armour, both in Bloemfontein.

You didn't perhaps notice anything along these lines, did you?

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post #349:

The Panhard M4 (Klonkie): This is interesting. Panhard developed a series of 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8 armoured vehicles in the early seventies. The combat weight of the 4x4 was 10.900 kg, it was 5.3 meters long, 2.5 meters wide and was powered by a Berliet 6.9 liter, V8 diesel developing 165 hp or a 185 hp Baudouin diesel of 185hp. This prototype of this vehicle was however only presented in 1973, according to the "Vehicule de l' Avant Blinde" booklet "Unclassified no. 5", by Stefan Marx. The vehicle tested in S.A. therfore had to have been a very early prototype.


P.S: By the way, there is an excellent photograph in the same booklet by Marx of a 6x6 Panhard vehicle with the powerpack at the right-front, driver next to it, a crew position behind the driver and an AML 90 turret offset to the left, at the rear of the vehicle. Clearly visible painted on the front of the vehicle is the name "Boerboel", with the registration number R99995! The terrain in which the vehicle was photographed is typically South African. This was clearly a derivative of the 6x6 Panhard prototype developed in the early seventies. It was obviously also tested in SA. This vehicle never saw production; it is very different to later Panhard armoured cars like the ERC.

Interesting.

Any pictures of the Panhard M4 Klonkie?

Also, that Panhard 6x6 vehicles labelled Boerbul sounds interesting.
You couldn't post the picture, or perhaps direct me to one of it?

 

[Herman]

Reply to #574:
When I went to SA, I hadn't looked at this blog for quite a while, so I didn't specifically look for a vehicle like that. I did not see anything resembling a Ratel prototype. Part of the museum was closed however. I did not, for instance, see the prototypes for Hoefyster either.

 

[Herman]

Reply to #548:
I have not been able to find any pictures on the web. The vehicles are shown and described in Jane's Weapon Systems, 1974-75 (yes, I have a copy!). A chap by the name of Stefan Marx publishes mongrams/booklets about military vehicles (www.platforms-mil.de) under the name of "Unclassified". Unclassified numbers 5, 6 and 7 covers the history and development of the French VAB APC. In the late sixties, the French issued a requirement for a multi-purpose, wheeled APC. Both Panhard and Saviem developed vehicles for this requirement and Berliet entered the aforementioned VXB vehicle. The Saviem entry won and became the VAB, a highly successful vehicle with more than 5000 having been produced. In Unclassified number 5, the various Panhard prototypes (4x4, 6x6 and 8x8) are described, with a number of photo's. This is also where the photo of the "Boerboel" is found. The photo is credited to Christofer F. Foss.

I am most definitely not of the Nintendo generation but I'll see if I can scan the photo in an post it here.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks for that Herman.

If you need any assistance, just let me know....

...it'll be like the blind leading the blind perhaps!

 

[Herman]

Reply to #547
I've seen it mentioned that the Springfield Bussing Buffel, which won the competition and was further developed into the Ratel, is on display at the gates of either the Armour Museum or the School of Armour, both in Bloemfontein.

While still living in SA, in the seventies, I saw a prototype for the Ratel. The front plate was a flat V, like the front plate of the Panhard AML/Eland, with a visor cum hatch exactly like that of the Eland. I also read somewhere that the first prototype was powered with a petrol engine. I think the Buffel, Ratel prototype, was probably built by Sandock Austral which was also building the Eland at that time. To simplify matters, they built the front end to be able to use the Eland hatch and episcopes. Possibly after seeing the Berliet VXB, the design was changed to later Ratel type, very similar to the Berliet. I saw this vehicle later again. It was used, possibly in the mid-eighties, as a transport for VIP's. It was driving about with, amongst others, P.W. Botha in an open construction where the turret would normally be, on a "battlefield" where the army was holding large scale maneuvres.

 

[Herman]

Note on post #543:
Had a look in old copies of Jane's Military Vehicles and Ground Support Equipment. The axles on the 8x8 vehicle at the armour museum, the vehicle I think was the "Sprinkaan", are all old Magirus-Humbolt-Deutz units, not Rockwell. They are from a Jupiter 6x6 truck or gun tractor, as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, with an extra front axle added, obviously. The axles were modified to be suspended on coils rather than the original leaf springs. Magirus Jupiter trucks were built up to the mid-sixties, afaik. The axles look different to modern Iveco-Magirus and SAMIL axles. This reinforces my suspicion that this thing was built as part of the Ratel trials in 1972. It is most likely the Sprinkaan built by the tiffies.

 

[kaiserbill]

Nice feedback Herman.

As I stated earlier, it has all the features of an APC or MICV, so that would make sense.
Firing ports, top hatches, rear doors, side doors, and space and aperture for a turret.
Quite similar features to the Ratel, with the obvious exception of the front engine, double rear doors and extra axle.


Any luck with that picture?

 

[Herman]

I've written a summary of the trials leading up to adoption of the Ratel, as I understand it. It consists of open source material, much of it gleaned from this thread, with comments on all the participant vehicles (3 pages of text!). Obviously quite a bit of conjecture and speculation on my part, as well. I have access to photo's of all the participating vehicles, except the Buffel. I'll try to put the whole thing together and post it as a series of posts on this thread in the near future.

 

[kaiserbill]

That sounds great Herman.

Looking forward to it.

Don't keep us waiting too long.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

X 2

 

[Herman]

Reply to #556:
I have finished the thing. It's written in Word, with pictures inserted in the text. The text I can copy and paste the text onto the blog but the pictures don't follow? How do I get the photo's onto the blog? Or send me your e-mail address and I'll mail the whole thing to you and you can knock yourself out.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Reply to #556:
I have finished the thing. It's written in Word, with pictures inserted in the text. The text I can copy and paste the text onto the blog but the pictures don't follow? How do I get the photo's onto the blog? Or send me your e-mail address and I'll mail the whole thing to you and you can knock yourself out.

You can attach the word doc. to one of your posts here on the forum. If the word doc is bigger than 1.5 MB you can split it up by pages.

 

[kaiserbill]

Herman, as AG suggests, you can attach it to your posts as an attachment.
When you reply to a post on this thread, the attachment option is below the text box were you type your reply.
As AG suggests, the file might be too large for posting as a single attachment. If so, you'll have to break it up into parts.

I have sent you my e-mail adress in a private message if you need any assistance.

I am just assuming you don't know this, so please ignore this post if you are au fait with this already.

 

[Herman]

Here it is gentlemen. Nothing you don't know yet.

 

[kaiserbill]

Excellent work Herman.

On the subject of the Springfield-Bussing (MAN) Buffel vehicle that was developed into the Ratel, in my Reply 349, which is a translation of the article in Reply 345, I note the following:

Most of these vehicles are on display at 1 South African
Infantry Battalion (the BUFFEL at the front gate on the right), or at the Tank
Museum at the School of Armour.

So this Buffel is on display by the main gate at 1 SAI Bn, Bloemfontein.

We are missing a photo of this.
Perhaps it is superficially similar enough to the Ratel that people haven't noticed?

Do any forum members perhaps have an image, or is anyone going to the museum in the near future?
If so, please see if you can get a pic.

 

[Herman]

Reply to #562:
I know some people, unfortunately not military minded, but I'll see what I can do.

When one start digging into this stuff, you realise that there was an enormous amount of research and development into wheeled armour going on in SA during the seventies and eighties. There is certainly enough to write an excellent book about. Unfortunately, very little is known. All we really have are wrecks like the Sprinkaan, interesting novelties like the modified M3, and enigmas like the Mechem Crocodile and Gator slowly rotting away. The problem is that all of this started 40 years ago. It also happened in a country that basically lost the war. The people who were involved are now mostly either dead or retired and if still alive, often living in Australia, the US, Canada, Britain, etc. Another problem is of course that it all happened in great secrecy because of the arms embargo then in place and the (justified?) paranoia of the then white government. It is unclear how well records, minutes of meetings, etc. were kept and what did exist is now either lost, destroyed or unaccessible.

 

[Rickshaw]

Surely the companies involved kept written records? Afterall, they had a great deal of investment put into these vehicles and wouldn't want to lose that knowledge. Are you suggesting that there was a wholesale purge when the Apartheid regime was deposed?

 

[Herman]

Reply to #564:
There is absolutely no reason why records would have been purged. Some of the companies do not exist anymore, others have fused, etc. Records would have gone into boxes and crates to be stored and some may have been disposed of to create room or when premises were moved, etc. As I mentioned, a lot of this happened more than 30 years ago; the Ratel development 40 years ago. Researching this would be somewhat similar to researching the development of the WW2 German Panther tank during the early eighties. Here I should add that, if one looks at the magnificent books by Thomas Jentz and H.L. Doyle on the Panther and the Tiger tanks, it should be possible. Maybe all that is needed is for somebody really interested and with time on their hands to get stuck in, do the research and then write it up.

 

[kaiserbill]

New to me anyway,anybody with any ideas or further info?

Reply to #535

That I believe is the R7.

This was a development of the normal R4 assault rifle, and had a heavy barrel mounted to act as a sort of light machine gun.
This barrel was slightly longer than the usual R4 barrel by about 50mm, and the R7 was about 1kg heavier.