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Author Topic: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952  (Read 35331 times)

Offline archipeppe

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Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« on: January 19, 2008, 06:23:50 am »
Directly from Collier's of '50s here it is a presentation about von Braun's dream I did recently for Italian Astronautics Forum (www.forumastronautico.it).

Enjoy it!!!

Archipeppe

P.S. Sorry because is it in Italian....

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2008, 06:24:35 am »
Other slides...

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2008, 06:25:25 am »
Other slides...

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2008, 06:25:50 am »
At least the conclusions.... :D

Offline pometablava

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2008, 06:54:07 am »
Tante Grazie!

It is a really nice work. The Ferry Rocket in NASA markings looks wonderful.

Regards

Antonio

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2008, 08:57:26 am »
wonderfull work archipeppe  8)

i wonder of the big wing realy workt ?
because in Von Braun Ferry Rocket work of 1956
the Orbiter has small delta wings
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Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2008, 01:09:52 pm »
I am curious about the presence of the thermal protection tiles in the nosecone. Do you have additional information on this?

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2008, 06:38:15 pm »
Archi,

Great job on the Ferry Rocket. It's shame I don't know Italian but that'sOK, I'll take it to somebody at school and see if I can get it translated. In reference ti this topic, has anyone read "TRANQUILITY ALTERNATIVE", Allen Steele's alternate history of the space program? IIRC, in the book, the US actually developed the Ferry Rocket in the late 50's and continued using them into the 90's even after the Space Shuttle was deemed unworkable. If you haven't read it yet, it's a pretty good "what if" story.
In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2008, 07:05:07 pm »
has anyone read "TRANQUILITY ALTERNATIVE", Allen Steele's alternate history of the space program?

Much of that alternate history has been incorporated into the hopefully-forthcoming movie "Man Conquers Space."
http://www.manconquersspace.com/



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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2008, 07:12:17 pm »
And very shortly you will be able to own your own.

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/VonBraunOrbitalRocketCataloguePage.htm

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Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 01:25:59 am »
Thanks all for your kind comments!!

I am curious about the presence of the thermal protection tiles in the nosecone. Do you have additional information on this?

Yep, there was clearly visible in the Collier's cover of 14 March 1953 made by Fred Freeman.

To answer to Michel I think that this amazing design was still too much "plane" and even less "spacecraft".
Too much drag due to the huge wing span and a real nightmare for re-entry thermal control.
The 1956 design (Disney's Men in Space), conceived mostly by Willy Ley, was more practical indeed it was still too much linked to F102/106 fighters design.

Anyway my next presentation on this matter (I will do by since two languages version, both Italian and English, so you will do not have any problem in understanding it) will be the 1956 design.

Offline McTodd

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 01:53:59 am »
I am curious about the presence of the thermal protection tiles in the nosecone. Do you have additional information on this?

Yep, there was clearly visible in the Collier's cover of 14 March 1953 made by Fred Freeman.

Attached is a small scan of that cover, pinched from t'interweb.

BTW Archipeppe, great slides, and good luck with the next presentation.

And let's all keep our finger crossed that Man Conquers Space will be completed and shown - there's an awesome new hi-def trailer on their site.

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 02:22:33 am »
And let's all keep our finger crossed that Man Conquers Space will be completed and shown - there's an awesome new hi-def trailer on their site.

Great news McTodd!!!

I've long waited, like all of us, for this almost "dream become reality" movie.
Just to answer XP67 Monbat, I'm also a big fan of Allen Steel's little masterpiece "The Tranquillity Alternative" (printed in Italy, 10 years ago, in Urania's collection as "La fortezza sulla Luna").

Unfortunately I'd never able to find the small novel "Goddard's people" which generated the entire novel....

Offline McTodd

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 03:40:47 am »
Unfortunately I'd never able to find the small novel "Goddard's people" which generated the entire novel....

Ta da!

ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION - Volume 15, number 8 - July 1991: And Wild for to Hold; Moral Bullet; What Eats You; Will of God; Dispatches from the Revolution; Goddard's People; Nine Tenths of the Law

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=Xay0q9XYDOLVPUyNoz4OU2j2erE_3387686535_1:3:446

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 08:44:35 am »
Thanks all for your kind comments!!

To answer to Michel I think that this amazing design was still too much "plane" and even less "spacecraft".
Too much drag due to the huge wing span and a real nightmare for re-entry thermal control.
The 1956 design (Disney's Men in Space), conceived mostly by Willy Ley, was more practical indeed it was still too much linked to F102/106 fighters design.

Not Only Reentry Problems but also Launch Problems !
those Big wing under Maximum Air Pressure and Viberation
(include Pogo of 48 Engine ! in this case)
this is also called Q-max and happend 6o sec after lift off in height 10 km
the Air pressure build up to 5000 kg per square meter ! 5 metric Ton  :o

some one tell me that Space shuttle as only flight margin of 1,2% during Q-max
or the Wings are rip of !

if this is true i don't know
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 08:47:56 am by Michel Van »
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Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2008, 08:45:13 am »
GREAT!!!!

Many thanks for the info.
I'will order it, by Amazon, asap....

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2008, 08:48:47 am »
Not Only Reentry Problems but also Launch Problems !
those Big wing under Maximum Air Pressure and Viberation
(include Pogo of 48 Engine ! in this case)
this is also called Q-max and happend 6o sec after lift off in height 10 km
the Air pressure build up to 5000 kg per square meter ! 5 metric Ton  :o

some one tell me that Space shuttle as only flight margin of 1,2% during Q-max
or the Wings are rip of !


For sure von Braun and others understimated some aerodynamics drag side effects, but this was not complete intentional fault due to the status of the art of that times.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2008, 08:56:38 am »
I always wondered what would happen to that fancy space plane the first time they tried to reenter.  :o
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Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2008, 09:04:16 am »
I always wondered what would happen to that fancy space plane the first time they tried to reenter.  :o

It depends by the type of re-entry.
If you look for some Shuttle-like re-entry (lifting body behaviour and L/D ratio of 1,5) for sure the whole thing will burn up.
Instead if we consider some high efficient skip re-entry maneuver (like Sanger RaBo) with a really long path through the atmosphere (and almost 0° pitch angle above the horizon) perhaps it could manage it intact, by both aerodynamics and thermal point of view.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2008, 12:15:09 pm »
I always wondered what would happen to that fancy space plane the first time they tried to reenter.  :o

It depends by the type of re-entry.

The most frequently accepted theory of the time was that the spaceship should cross the highest layers of the atmosphere in the orbital perigeum and come back into orbit, after having modified its speed, in the apogeum. The external hull was refrigerated by radiation.

The repetition of the cycle was reducing the speed until reaching a circular orbit and an acceptable re-entry speed (“Space Platform” Murray Leinster 1953).
Willy Ley - in his book “Die Eroberung des Weltraums” – believed that the first impact with the atmosphere would be at a speed of 30000 km/h. He thought that big wings were better for this type of re-entry. Actually the third stage had 52 m. wingspan in the original design of 1948, later reduced on to 48 m.
The reasons for the reduction were not aerodynamic ones. As per the theories of the time, the wings should have a size proportional to the fins of the first stage. They reduced the wings to save weight in the first stage!

At the time the rocket was designed the knowledge on supersonic flight was not public. Willy Ley was a zoologist and von Braun was specialized in propulsion. Neither of them was aerodynamicist.
They had already had some problems with the design of the A4b wings in Peenemünde.
In 1952 all they could do was to copy the wings of the X-2.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2008, 12:26:47 pm »
Please find attached some figures

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2008, 01:16:20 am »
Many many thanks Justo for these additional infos.
I've really missed a photo of Ferry Rocket's landing (especially this nice one with F80 overfly and F86 parked on ramp, oh I love it, it's so '50s.....).

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2008, 02:48:33 am »
to Heatshield on Ferry
i read the German edition of "Man Will Conquer Space Soon!" Star in den Weltraum.
Von Braun give this data
the glide pad is 20000 km long.
the Ferry has a maximum of 715° +C or 1319° F

reality check
Space Shuttle and Buran
nose and leading edge of the wings. heats up to 1650° +C or 3002° F


you know those links ?
http://www.fabiofeminofantascience.org/COLLIERS/COLLIERS1.html
http://home.flash.net/~aajiv/bd/colliers.html
http://www.davidszondy.com/future/space/colliersshuttle.htm
http://renax.club.fr/sharkit/ferryrocket/ferryrocket.htm

http://manconquersspace.com/
go to trailermenu  and see it !

« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 12:19:33 pm by Michel Van »
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2008, 09:10:22 am »

the Ferry has a maximum of 715° +C or 1319° F

realty check
Space Shuttle and Buran
nose and leading edge of the wings. heats up to 1650° +C or 3002° F



That's where these early 1950's designs really fell down. At the time, there was insufficient experimental data to really allow for a good understanding of aerothermal heating. And given the very sharp leading edge of the FR, it's wings would get *hotter* than those of the Shuttle, which has nice blunt leading edges. The pointy nose of the FR would melt right off, no matter *what* it was made from.
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Offline Grif

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2008, 08:16:24 am »
I recently read von Braun's novel "Project Mars: A Technical Tale", in which the 10-ship Mars expedition was assembled in orbit by 3-stage ferry rockets. The funny thing is, in the novel, these were painted black, to radiate heat, not white like on Encyclopaedia Astronautica; also, they had retractable wings. By the way, that picture of a third stage landing with a Sabre in the foreground is from Martin Caidin's "Worlds in Space", and was by (I think) Fred Wolff.
Grif Ingram

Offline Grif

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2008, 08:19:19 am »
I just found a model of the original von Braun ferry rocket (called a "Sirius" class ship in the novel) on the "Back of Beyond" wargaming forum. How do you post pictures on this forum?


Offline pometablava

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2008, 09:47:05 am »
Quote
How do you post pictures on this forum?

It's easy Grif, when you are writing a message you'll find "Additional Options..." on the lower left corner of the "Post reply" window. Click on it and you'll see the tool to attach files (pics, pdf,...) to your message.

Regards

Antonio

Offline Grif

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2008, 01:55:27 am »
I tried that; my cyber-incompetence strikes again! Never mind, here's the link:

http://forum.backofbeyond.de/viewtopic.php?t=4123&start=0

You have to scroll down, past all the stuff about converting a Denny's cup to a Flash Gordon rocketship...by the way, if you enter "Retro-Futurismus" into a search engine, and go to that site, you'll find lots of old illustrations of von Braun and R.A.Smith designs - really great looking stuff!
Grif

Offline McTodd

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2008, 05:34:49 am »
Fantastic sites, thanks! On Retro-Futurismus, the designs of Erik Theodor Lässig are clearly (and acknowledged to be) based on R A Smith's designs, and are a brilliant way to see them:

http://www.retro-futurismus.de/laessig_flugzummond.htm

I would strongly urge anyone interested in R A Smith's designs to buy the BIS CD-rom 'High Road to the Moon':

http://www.bis-spaceflight.com/sitesia.aspx/page/297/Node/108/l/en-gb

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2008, 09:24:12 am »

I would strongly urge anyone interested in R A Smith's designs




Please see attached some RA Smith's drawings

Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2008, 11:48:21 am »
I have a feeling that the first picture is not a Smith drawing - unfortunately the book that has the answer in is totally ungetatable at the moment!

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Barry
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2008, 12:56:38 pm »
I have a feeling that the first picture is not a Smith drawing - unfortunately the book that has the answer in is totally ungetatable at the moment!

but not for me

the first Picture is from Ed Valigursky
he like more sperical space station instaat wheels one.

Source:
Visions of Space - artis journey through the Cosmos
David A. Hardy
ISBN 0-8317-9189-6

you dont have it ?
Shame on you guys !  >:(

i found the right picture here
http://www.pp.htv.fi/jwestman/space/bisraket.html


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Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2008, 01:43:20 pm »
I have a feeling that the first picture is not a Smith drawing - unfortunately the book that has the answer in is totally ungetatable at the moment!

but not for me

the first Picture is from Ed Valigursky
he like more sperical space station instaat wheels one.

Source:
Visions of Space - artis journey through the Cosmos
David A. Hardy
ISBN 0-8317-9189-6

you dont have it ?
Shame on you guys !  >:(

i found the right picture here
http://www.pp.htv.fi/jwestman/space/bisraket.html




You are right.I have the book and captions on page 18 say that the drawing is by Valigursky.
I hope to be right with these sent today

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 03:53:59 am »
Back to Topic : Von Braun's Ferry Rocket

there is another problem with that Rocket
the first stage has 51 Engines means Pogo oscillation during launch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_oscillation

Stage One would have same problem like Saturn V stage S1-C, only bigger!
and more problems: the propellants Nitric acid/Hydrazine
they unstable in combustion, give a high frequencies oscillation on engine Wat add up to Pogo...
and in worst case destroy the Engine (like Ariane 1 test flight 2 or sonic cut on Titan 2 ground test)

but let face it Von Braun was very Conservative in Engine design and the F-1 was still a Utopia in 1950s





« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 04:10:41 am by Michel Van »
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Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2008, 05:53:22 am »
but let face it Von Braun was very Conservative in Engine design and the F-1 was still a Utopia in 1950s

You're right Michel, and that's the main difference between a real scientist and a sci-fi writer.....

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2008, 05:59:43 am »
Strongest structures to cure vibration?
Assembly of the moonships (fragment)
From "The art of Chesley Bonestell" by Ron Miller and Frederick C.Durant III,
Paper Tiger publishing 2001

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2008, 07:31:53 am »
Strongest structures to cure vibration?

TO HEAVY !

they need vibration absorber in  feedline
each engine must have a damper in the propellants line

question to prominent Pogo oscillation victim N-1 Booster
original design with 24 engines by Sergei Korolev
later modify to 30 engine by Vasily Mishin
with out Damper ????
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Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2008, 08:44:50 am »
I understand the problem now
Impar number of engines may be  best to cure resonance as helicopters tail rotor?

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2008, 02:46:36 am »
Quote
Impar number of engines may be  best to cure resonance
not quiet 
the Saturn V had only 5 x F-1 Engine also problem with Pogo oscillation
the N-1 had 30 x NK-15 engines which there LOX turbo pumps produced Pogo oscillation
 
you have to find a optima number of engine and suppression of Pogo oscillation.
by control of engine trust like today Space shuttle, or turbo pumps as build in vibration absorber to the feedline


found on YouTube
Disney "man in space" (in 2 parts)



enjoy  ;D
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Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2008, 12:22:55 pm »
Nice videos. I have some shots and several drawings of the rocket with extended ventral hatch for the bottle suit.
Please see the sketch for conversion to Relief ship
(Drawing by Dr.Brett Gooden)

Offline amsci99

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2008, 12:59:21 pm »
IIRC, Von Braun was a technical advisor on Disney's Man In Space series. Based on some of the designs, there were some major design revisions when compared to the designs from the Collier magazines.

Offline McTodd

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2008, 01:48:29 pm »
IIRC, Von Braun was a technical advisor on Disney's Man In Space series. Based on some of the designs, there were some major design revisions when compared to the designs from the Collier magazines.
You're absolutely right. In fact, not only was von Braun a technical adviser, he also appeared on Man In Space. Great accent... At a tangent, I was quite amused that in the BBC drama series Space Race, the actor who plyed von Braun put on a quite gentle German accent. I can only assume it was because nobody would have believed him if he'd put on as strong an accent as von Braun really had ('shpeece reece' is how he would have pronounced it).

The von Braun designs really develop markedly from the original Collier's series in 1952 and 1954, then through the book versions published around 1956, and then on to Disney. As von Braun repeatedly examined how to do certain things, so he could see how they could be accomplished more easily. This is very noticeable with the Mars mission, in which the 1956 version was considerably cut-down from only two years previously. Jack Hagerty's amazing Spaceship Handbook details the changes minutely.

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2008, 12:59:30 am »
Several sources report that the XR-1 Ferry Rocket, from Disney's "Man in Space", had a strong influnce of Willy Ley rather than von Braun itself.
Ley wanted something more "modern" compared to the original canard, big-wing Ferry Rocket of Collier's, so it looked to Convair F-102 and found out something that could appeal public interest.
That's the main reason for the XR-1 shape.

For sure the real reason of interest in this concept was the introduction of modular design that allows to have three different kind of vehicles exploiting essentially the same basic structure.

Offline Triton

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2009, 06:37:38 pm »
Von Braun Ferry Rocket.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 03:01:46 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2009, 07:36:31 pm »
Images of the 3rd Stage Satellite Vehicle of the Von Braun Ferry Rocket.

Matt Novak of Paleo-Future writes:
Quote
To provide safety in case of a malfunction of the reusable upper stage - von Braun's 1950s shuttle concept - crew and passengers press buttons on their chair arms. Contour seats straighten automatically and enclosures snap shut forming sealed escape capsules. To abandon ship, the crew and passengers push another button and the capsules, guided by rails, are ejected by explosive powder charges. The arrangement is seen in cross-section.

After ejection, the capsules' descent is controlled by four-foot steel mesh parachutes. At about 150 above the ground or water, a proximity fuse sets off a small rocket that further slows the rate of fall.
http://paleo-future.blogspot.com/2007/11/wernher-von-brauns-space-shuttle-1950s.html
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 08:05:13 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2009, 08:12:14 pm »
Drawing of Von Braun Ferry Rocket by Jon Rogers appearing in Spaceship Handbook by Jack Hagerty and Jon Rogers.
http://www.solarguard.com/sglib2.htm

Illustrations from Across the Space Frontier from link provided by magnus_z.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 03:02:58 pm by Triton »


Offline airrocket

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2009, 05:29:20 pm »
Any more drawings of the delta wing ferry rocket by Valigursky? That is one sharp looking spaceship.
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Offline OM

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2009, 06:08:53 pm »
...You know, I just realized something that 45 years of knowing and comprehending what the Von Braun Express failed to raise a red flag about: has anyone seen concept diagrams of how the VBE was erected on the launch pad with those gazonga fins on the first stage?

Offline magnus_z

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2011, 12:00:38 am »





Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2011, 02:59:37 pm »
Maybe the fins were portable.  Just snap 'em in at the pad and you're good to go.  ;)
In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline TomS

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2011, 12:14:12 pm »
OM, the port/starboard wings certainly appear to stick down past the surface of the pad, but I believe the ventral/dorsal fins were shorter, so the stage could be rolled out over the pad along that axis. 

Offline OM

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2011, 10:56:13 pm »
OM, the port/starboard wings certainly appear to stick down past the surface of the pad, but I believe the ventral/dorsal fins were shorter, so the stage could be rolled out over the pad along that axis. 

...It depends on the drawing being used as an example. I've seen them with the fins being equal length and size, or paired as you described, or even a version where there were no fins along the Pitch or +/- Y axis(*) of the all stages but the reentry module, so it resembled more of a big rocket *plane* from stem to stern. If we'd built the damn thing rather than let it remain as a Mouse House fantasy, we'd probably know the answer  >:(

(*) Note to the Peanut Gallery: I *always* get the X/Y/Z axis mixed up, so if this is really the X axis, make the correction and pat yourself on the head. :P

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2011, 09:14:19 am »
Von Braun Ferry Rocket.
JUST as an FYI thing; "staging09.jpg" is actually a still from the 1953 movie "Spaceways"
http://www.fandango.com/spaceways_v45918/summary
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046351/

I also agree that the Valigursky delta ferry is quite interesting, and I'd like to see more on both it and the XR-1 desing itself... Then again I AM quite greedy about such things ;)

Randy

Offline blackstar

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2011, 07:00:35 pm »
Von Braun Ferry Rocket.
JUST as an FYI thing; "staging09.jpg" is actually a still from the 1953 movie "Spaceways"

I'm totally unfamiliar with this movie.  I doubt that it's any good.  Can you tell me anything about it?  The rocket looks like a cartoon.  Is that how they did the space scenes?

(I have not found many pictures on the web from this movie.)

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2011, 11:54:51 pm »
I'm totally unfamiliar with this movie.  I doubt that it's any good.  Can you tell me anything about it?  The rocket looks like a cartoon.  Is that how they did the space scenes?

(I have not found many pictures on the web from this movie.)

It is an ol' English movie named "Spaceways", some further info on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceways

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2011, 06:38:54 am »
Von Braun Ferry Rocket.
JUST as an FYI thing; "staging09.jpg" is actually a still from the 1953 movie "Spaceways"

I'm totally unfamiliar with this movie.  I doubt that it's any good.  Can you tell me anything about it?  The rocket looks like a cartoon.  Is that how they did the space scenes?

(I have not found many pictures on the web from this movie.)
Short-version; American Rocket Scientist is working in the British Space Program, (they actually had one at the time) and his wife is having and affair with one of the British scientists (who also happens to be a spy)
Both "lovers" disappear the night the first satellite is launched and the "hero" is accused of killing them and stuffing the bodies into the satellite. So to clear himself he has to take a ship up, retrieve the satellite and prove his innocence.

I personally haven't seen it but may have to since I've seen a lot of comments about the twists and suspense of the movie. It is less Sci-Fi than an Alfred Hitchcock thriller from the comments.

Randy

Offline blackstar

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2011, 06:53:13 pm »
I love the idea of hiding a body in a rocket.  CSI should do that!

Offline OM

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2011, 08:42:13 pm »
I love the idea of hiding a body in a rocket.  CSI should do that!

...TNG went there and did that in one of the later episodes. Threw in a few ghosts and the first view of one of the nacelle coil intermix chambers, with an ample helping of Troi feeling pain and trying to commit suicide.

Offline dannydale

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2011, 01:12:45 pm »
I love the idea of hiding a body in a rocket.  CSI should do that!

...TNG went there and did that in one of the later episodes. Threw in a few ghosts and the first view of one of the nacelle coil intermix chambers, with an ample helping of Troi feeling pain and trying to commit suicide.
That's the only part that really held my interest, actually. Anything with Troi, her mother, or her suitor-of-the-week made my head hurt. :D

Offline OM

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2011, 07:34:37 pm »
I love the idea of hiding a body in a rocket.  CSI should do that!

...TNG went there and did that in one of the later episodes. Threw in a few ghosts and the first view of one of the nacelle coil intermix chambers, with an ample helping of Troi feeling pain and trying to commit suicide.
That's the only part that really held my interest, actually. Anything with Troi, her mother, or her suitor-of-the-week made my head hurt. :D

...Here's where we disagree a bit. About the only time Troi never gave me a headache was when Mrs. Troi was on the show. Majel was perfect in that role, and proved to even her most ardent detractors that given the right roles Majel was a damn fine actress. Marina Sirtis, on the other hand...well, having met her in person, I'll say she's a nice person, but as an actress the only time she ever had a role where her talents were used to their fullest was in the slasher flick Blind Date, where she got a scalpel between her saggers.

That being said, we now return you to our discussion of WvB's Ferry Rocket, already in a total state of disarray... :P

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2011, 06:02:45 am »
I love the idea of hiding a body in a rocket.  CSI should do that!
Well.....
http://www.tvrage.com/CSI_Miami/episodes/1064882835

"When a dead body drops from the sky, Horatio and the CSIs believe the victim was a NASA astronaut and Dr. Tom Loman suspects the man died somehow in zero gravity. This causes the owner of the only private space travel in Miami to become a suspect. Meanwhile, Walter and Jesse take a trip in the Vomit Comet to figure out what really happened in the first case where the murder might've happened in zero gravity"

OTHER than the various "hand-waveium" of the "RocketPlane" rip-off being fully orbital capable with something like a WEEK on-orbit time, my major "glitch" with the episode is the entire premis :)

The end where Horatio tells the Captain/Owner of the company that killing ONE passenger or letting them all die was "not his decision to make" made me want to step through the screen and bitch-slap the man! Uhm, hello? "Captain-of-the-Ship" and all that and hell YES it is "his" decision to make! The PR may be hell but LEGALLY the only thing they did "wrong" was trying to keep it under cover. (How the heck can he "insist" that he had to bring the body back but THEN try and get rid of it??? That doesn't make ANY sense, even for Hollywood :) )

Ahh well....

Randy

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2011, 07:50:44 am »
Yeah I remember that CSI episode too. Wish I hadn't. Tried to watch it without being overcome by a case of severe nerd rage accompanied by acute nausea. No dice. Thankfully, laughter is good cure-all for that.

As for Von Braun's ferry rocket, on the issue of vehicle assembly, I'm really tempted to think that horizontal assembly, a la Soyuz, might've been a practical route. With the ventral first stage fin being the removable one.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 07:56:15 am by XP67_Moonbat »
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Offline blackstar

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2011, 08:11:52 am »
I love the idea of hiding a body in a rocket.  CSI should do that!
Well.....
http://www.tvrage.com/CSI_Miami/episodes/1064882835

"When a dead body drops from the sky, Horatio and the CSIs believe the victim was a NASA astronaut and Dr. Tom Loman suspects the man died somehow in zero gravity. This causes the owner of the only private space travel in Miami to become a suspect. Meanwhile, Walter and Jesse take a trip in the Vomit Comet to figure out what really happened in the first case where the murder might've happened in zero gravity"

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1575/1


Offline visvirtusvoluntas

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2013, 12:44:22 am »
From INTERAVIA n.3 1952

Offline OM

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2013, 05:51:19 pm »
"When a dead body drops from the sky, Horatio and the CSIs believe the victim was a NASA astronaut and Dr. Tom Loman suspects the man died somehow in zero gravity. This causes the owner of the only private space travel in Miami to become a suspect. Meanwhile, Walter and Jesse take a trip in the Vomit Comet to figure out what really happened in the first case where the murder might've happened in zero gravity"


...The sad part is that over a decade after having to sift through dozens of reports about body parts landing all over East Texas in various states between medium rare and well-done during the first week after the Loss of Columbia, I honestly can't find this sort of plot anywhere near funny. And those around here who know me - even the two who've expressed their hatred here and elsewhere - are full aware of my appreciation for black, darkly-satirical humor. Where this particular example of the genre is concerned, it's sort of been burned out of me.


Oh, and for those wondering, the guy died on a Six Flags ride, which is where the null-g effects were acquired. He was poisoned by his butler, who dropped him out of the guy's private jet, which he then flew to the Bahamas with access to the guy's Swiss bank accounts... ;)

Offline hesham

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2013, 08:22:39 am »
And from NACA report.

Offline merriman

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2014, 06:25:00 am »
Fantastic! Beautiful work, I really wish I'd had these images when I made my computer model of it. Are there any more? Here's my CGI model - I might re-do it now!

That's very kind of you. The massive collection of in-work shots is in the form of slides and negatives, and these have yet to be scanned into my hard-drive.

However, these may be of interest -- work for the same display I built the moon-orbiter for:
]








I have also built models of other iconic early space vehicle concepts. I'm currently working on the Jack Coggins space-station (remember the movie, GOG?).

David
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 07:51:26 am by merriman »
We're the extra fuel they may need, Stanton...

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2014, 07:10:13 am »
Great work, merriman !

The last one is the von Braun Ferry Rocket, could you tell me more about the
moon orbiter, please ? I'm not adept in space projects, but perhaps we should
change the title to make it clearer for people like me ?  ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline blackstar

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2014, 07:34:43 am »
This is in the National Air and Space Museum.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2015, 04:19:50 pm »


"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline TomS

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2015, 04:29:11 pm »
This is in the National Air and Space Museum.

The placard says Meteor Jr. It probably belongs in that thread instead.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5876.0.html

Offline hesham

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2018, 05:49:12 am »
From Oltre il Cielo 1957-11

Offline carmelo

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2018, 08:42:56 am »
But,suppone for absurd that the US government had funded this Ferry Rocket.
he really would work or was over the technology of 50s early 60s ?

Offline merriman

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2018, 10:29:04 am »
But,suppone for absurd that the US government had funded this Ferry Rocket.
he really would work or was over the technology of 50s early 60s ?

When he popularized these concepts in the Viking Press books, von Braun took care to make the point that these ships were within the 'state-of-the-art' for the time they were presented. All that was needed was money and commitment; no new advancements in materials, fabrication techniques, chemicals, or electronics (computers) were needed to see men on the moon within ten-years. Those vehicles would have been guided and controlled by machines using vacuum tubes and analog (mechanical) computers, and powered by gas-generator cycle, hypergolic engines of relatively low Isp.

His schemes were grand, but doable in the 50's.

David
We're the extra fuel they may need, Stanton...

Offline fredymac

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2018, 10:58:58 am »

I have also built models of other iconic early space vehicle concepts. I'm currently working on the Jack Coggins space-station (remember the movie, GOG?).

David

I've seen that movie and I never noticed a space station so I took another look and spotted a 3 second long still picture in the opening credits.  What really has me interested is that 2 man tandem rotor helicopter at around 13 minutes into the movie.  I'm pretty sure it's a Piasecki.

Offline merriman

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2018, 11:45:05 am »
An actual miniature of the station was made for the GOG movie, and got about one-minute of face-time in the first reel -- it was presented as a model of the proposed orbiting space-station. This same miniature was redressed for use in several episodes of the ZIV produced, Science Fiction Theater.

That miniature was not terribly accurate to the Jack Coggins (the originator of the design) illustrations, but close. The linkage between the ZIV TV series and the movie is the Director-Producer, Ivan Tors.

David
We're the extra fuel they may need, Stanton...

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2018, 12:12:33 pm »
What really has me interested is that 2 man tandem rotor helicopter at around 13 minutes into the movie.  I'm pretty sure it's a Piasecki.

It's a McCulloch MC-4
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2018, 12:59:25 pm »

When he popularized these concepts in the Viking Press books, von Braun took care to make the point that these ships were within the 'state-of-the-art' for the time they were presented.    ...   His schemes were grand, but doable in the 50's.

Well... kinda. There are some aspect that are a bit physics-defying. Building those nice sharp leading edges out of stainless steel is a dandy way to turn a re-entry vehicle into a cloud of molten steel droplets and various-sized chunks of debris.

Same problem plagues the Sanger antipodal bomber, and a lot of other designs that pre-date serious efforts to actually study the problems of re-entry.
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Offline sienar

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2018, 03:12:51 am »
Maybe the fins were portable.  Just snap 'em in at the pad and you're good to go.  ;)

Did you say that knowing that they were envisioned as removable?

And another interesting detail from Colliers that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere, recoverable 1st and 2nd stages.

Offline hesham

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2018, 03:19:42 am »
From Oltre il Cielo 1960 01

Offline antigravite

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2018, 06:46:10 am »
Von Braun Ferry Rocket.

Hi, this might not be the best thread but let's see… 

In this post referenced above, there is a cycle / donut shaped space station which was, among many others, "recycled" by Kubrick. (Pun intended.) Does anyone have an idea of where this toroidal - wheel - donut shape space station comes from. This is both a history and a design question. Did this design originate from BIS' R.A.E. Smith? Tsiolkovsky? Perelman? from the very brainchild of von Braun? From earlier fiction, such as 1930s era pulps? Could even be Flash Gorden (strongly doubt that). Disney?

Where does this donut space station shape come from? Who was the seed? An engineer? An illustrator whose work would be fushed further in the realm of engineering? Was it Bonestell's own ideas?

A.
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L e t   b o l d s   b e   l i g h t
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Offline merriman

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Re: Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2018, 08:56:25 am »
The BIS had the ealiest 'refined' version of the 'wheel' type space-station I know of. I believe von Braun had presented a wheel before the war which was later fleshed out and popularized in the Viking press books. Disney was late to the party with their version, late 50's.

The von Braun concept became the foundation for other interpretations of the wheel type space station. This model representing the concept from the movie, The Conquest Of Space, for example.




David
We're the extra fuel they may need, Stanton...