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Von Braun's Ferry Rocket of 1952

archipeppe

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Directly from Collier's of '50s here it is a presentation about von Braun's dream I did recently for Italian Astronautics Forum (www.forumastronautico.it).

Enjoy it!!!

Archipeppe

P.S. Sorry because is it in Italian....
 

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Antonio

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Tante Grazie!

It is a really nice work. The Ferry Rocket in NASA markings looks wonderful.

Regards

Antonio
 

Michel Van

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wonderfull work archipeppe 8)

i wonder of the big wing realy workt ?
because in Von Braun Ferry Rocket work of 1956
the Orbiter has small delta wings
 

Justo Miranda

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I am curious about the presence of the thermal protection tiles in the nosecone. Do you have additional information on this?
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Archi,

Great job on the Ferry Rocket. It's shame I don't know Italian but that'sOK, I'll take it to somebody at school and see if I can get it translated. In reference ti this topic, has anyone read "TRANQUILITY ALTERNATIVE", Allen Steele's alternate history of the space program? IIRC, in the book, the US actually developed the Ferry Rocket in the late 50's and continued using them into the 90's even after the Space Shuttle was deemed unworkable. If you haven't read it yet, it's a pretty good "what if" story.
 

Orionblamblam

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XP67_Moonbat said:
has anyone read "TRANQUILITY ALTERNATIVE", Allen Steele's alternate history of the space program?
Much of that alternate history has been incorporated into the hopefully-forthcoming movie "Man Conquers Space."
http://www.manconquersspace.com/



 

archipeppe

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Thanks all for your kind comments!!

Justo Miranda said:
I am curious about the presence of the thermal protection tiles in the nosecone. Do you have additional information on this?
Yep, there was clearly visible in the Collier's cover of 14 March 1953 made by Fred Freeman.

To answer to Michel I think that this amazing design was still too much "plane" and even less "spacecraft".
Too much drag due to the huge wing span and a real nightmare for re-entry thermal control.
The 1956 design (Disney's Men in Space), conceived mostly by Willy Ley, was more practical indeed it was still too much linked to F102/106 fighters design.

Anyway my next presentation on this matter (I will do by since two languages version, both Italian and English, so you will do not have any problem in understanding it) will be the 1956 design.
 

McTodd

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archipeppe said:
Justo Miranda said:
I am curious about the presence of the thermal protection tiles in the nosecone. Do you have additional information on this?
Yep, there was clearly visible in the Collier's cover of 14 March 1953 made by Fred Freeman.
Attached is a small scan of that cover, pinched from t'interweb.

BTW Archipeppe, great slides, and good luck with the next presentation.

And let's all keep our finger crossed that Man Conquers Space will be completed and shown - there's an awesome new hi-def trailer on their site.
 

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archipeppe

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McTodd said:
And let's all keep our finger crossed that Man Conquers Space will be completed and shown - there's an awesome new hi-def trailer on their site.
Great news McTodd!!!

I've long waited, like all of us, for this almost "dream become reality" movie.
Just to answer XP67 Monbat, I'm also a big fan of Allen Steel's little masterpiece "The Tranquillity Alternative" (printed in Italy, 10 years ago, in Urania's collection as "La fortezza sulla Luna").

Unfortunately I'd never able to find the small novel "Goddard's people" which generated the entire novel....
 

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Michel Van

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archipeppe said:
Thanks all for your kind comments!!

To answer to Michel I think that this amazing design was still too much "plane" and even less "spacecraft".
Too much drag due to the huge wing span and a real nightmare for re-entry thermal control.
The 1956 design (Disney's Men in Space), conceived mostly by Willy Ley, was more practical indeed it was still too much linked to F102/106 fighters design.
Not Only Reentry Problems but also Launch Problems !
those Big wing under Maximum Air Pressure and Viberation
(include Pogo of 48 Engine ! in this case)
this is also called Q-max and happend 6o sec after lift off in height 10 km
the Air pressure build up to 5000 kg per square meter ! 5 metric Ton :eek:

some one tell me that Space shuttle as only flight margin of 1,2% during Q-max
or the Wings are rip of !

if this is true i don't know
 

archipeppe

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GREAT!!!!

Many thanks for the info.
I'will order it, by Amazon, asap....
 

archipeppe

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Michel Van said:
Not Only Reentry Problems but also Launch Problems !
those Big wing under Maximum Air Pressure and Viberation
(include Pogo of 48 Engine ! in this case)
this is also called Q-max and happend 6o sec after lift off in height 10 km
the Air pressure build up to 5000 kg per square meter ! 5 metric Ton :eek:

some one tell me that Space shuttle as only flight margin of 1,2% during Q-max
or the Wings are rip of !
For sure von Braun and others understimated some aerodynamics drag side effects, but this was not complete intentional fault due to the status of the art of that times.
 

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I always wondered what would happen to that fancy space plane the first time they tried to reenter. :eek:
 

archipeppe

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sferrin said:
I always wondered what would happen to that fancy space plane the first time they tried to reenter. :eek:
It depends by the type of re-entry.
If you look for some Shuttle-like re-entry (lifting body behaviour and L/D ratio of 1,5) for sure the whole thing will burn up.
Instead if we consider some high efficient skip re-entry maneuver (like Sanger RaBo) with a really long path through the atmosphere (and almost 0° pitch angle above the horizon) perhaps it could manage it intact, by both aerodynamics and thermal point of view.
 

Justo Miranda

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archipeppe said:
sferrin said:
I always wondered what would happen to that fancy space plane the first time they tried to reenter. :eek:
It depends by the type of re-entry.
The most frequently accepted theory of the time was that the spaceship should cross the highest layers of the atmosphere in the orbital perigeum and come back into orbit, after having modified its speed, in the apogeum. The external hull was refrigerated by radiation.

The repetition of the cycle was reducing the speed until reaching a circular orbit and an acceptable re-entry speed (“Space Platform” Murray Leinster 1953).
Willy Ley - in his book “Die Eroberung des Weltraums” – believed that the first impact with the atmosphere would be at a speed of 30000 km/h. He thought that big wings were better for this type of re-entry. Actually the third stage had 52 m. wingspan in the original design of 1948, later reduced on to 48 m.
The reasons for the reduction were not aerodynamic ones. As per the theories of the time, the wings should have a size proportional to the fins of the first stage. They reduced the wings to save weight in the first stage!

At the time the rocket was designed the knowledge on supersonic flight was not public. Willy Ley was a zoologist and von Braun was specialized in propulsion. Neither of them was aerodynamicist.
They had already had some problems with the design of the A4b wings in Peenemünde.
In 1952 all they could do was to copy the wings of the X-2.
 

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archipeppe

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Many many thanks Justo for these additional infos.
I've really missed a photo of Ferry Rocket's landing (especially this nice one with F80 overfly and F86 parked on ramp, oh I love it, it's so '50s.....).
 

Michel Van

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to Heatshield on Ferry
i read the German edition of "Man Will Conquer Space Soon!" Star in den Weltraum.
Von Braun give this data
the glide pad is 20000 km long.
the Ferry has a maximum of 715° +C or 1319° F

reality check
Space Shuttle and Buran
nose and leading edge of the wings. heats up to 1650° +C or 3002° F


you know those links ?
http://www.fabiofeminofantascience.org/COLLIERS/COLLIERS1.html
http://home.flash.net/~aajiv/bd/colliers.html
http://www.davidszondy.com/future/space/colliersshuttle.htm
http://renax.club.fr/sharkit/ferryrocket/ferryrocket.htm

http://manconquersspace.com/
go to trailermenu and see it !
 

Orionblamblam

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Michel Van said:
the Ferry has a maximum of 715° +C or 1319° F

realty check
Space Shuttle and Buran
nose and leading edge of the wings. heats up to 1650° +C or 3002° F

That's where these early 1950's designs really fell down. At the time, there was insufficient experimental data to really allow for a good understanding of aerothermal heating. And given the very sharp leading edge of the FR, it's wings would get *hotter* than those of the Shuttle, which has nice blunt leading edges. The pointy nose of the FR would melt right off, no matter *what* it was made from.
 

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I recently read von Braun's novel "Project Mars: A Technical Tale", in which the 10-ship Mars expedition was assembled in orbit by 3-stage ferry rockets. The funny thing is, in the novel, these were painted black, to radiate heat, not white like on Encyclopaedia Astronautica; also, they had retractable wings. By the way, that picture of a third stage landing with a Sabre in the foreground is from Martin Caidin's "Worlds in Space", and was by (I think) Fred Wolff.
Grif Ingram
 

Grif

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I just found a model of the original von Braun ferry rocket (called a "Sirius" class ship in the novel) on the "Back of Beyond" wargaming forum. How do you post pictures on this forum?
 

Antonio

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How do you post pictures on this forum?
It's easy Grif, when you are writing a message you'll find "Additional Options..." on the lower left corner of the "Post reply" window. Click on it and you'll see the tool to attach files (pics, pdf,...) to your message.

Regards

Antonio
 

Grif

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I tried that; my cyber-incompetence strikes again! Never mind, here's the link:

http://forum.backofbeyond.de/viewtopic.php?t=4123&start=0

You have to scroll down, past all the stuff about converting a Denny's cup to a Flash Gordon rocketship...by the way, if you enter "Retro-Futurismus" into a search engine, and go to that site, you'll find lots of old illustrations of von Braun and R.A.Smith designs - really great looking stuff!
Grif
 

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I have a feeling that the first picture is not a Smith drawing - unfortunately the book that has the answer in is totally ungetatable at the moment!

Regards,
Barry
 

Michel Van

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Barrington Bond said:
I have a feeling that the first picture is not a Smith drawing - unfortunately the book that has the answer in is totally ungetatable at the moment!
but not for me

the first Picture is from Ed Valigursky
he like more sperical space station instaat wheels one.

Source:
Visions of Space - artis journey through the Cosmos
David A. Hardy
ISBN 0-8317-9189-6

you dont have it ?
Shame on you guys ! :mad:

i found the right picture here
http://www.pp.htv.fi/jwestman/space/bisraket.html
 

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Justo Miranda

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Michel Van said:
Barrington Bond said:
I have a feeling that the first picture is not a Smith drawing - unfortunately the book that has the answer in is totally ungetatable at the moment!
but not for me

the first Picture is from Ed Valigursky
he like more sperical space station instaat wheels one.

Source:
Visions of Space - artis journey through the Cosmos
David A. Hardy
ISBN 0-8317-9189-6

you dont have it ?
Shame on you guys ! :mad:

i found the right picture here
http://www.pp.htv.fi/jwestman/space/bisraket.html
You are right.I have the book and captions on page 18 say that the drawing is by Valigursky.
I hope to be right with these sent today
 

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Michel Van

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Back to Topic : Von Braun's Ferry Rocket

there is another problem with that Rocket
the first stage has 51 Engines means Pogo oscillation during launch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_oscillation

Stage One would have same problem like Saturn V stage S1-C, only bigger!
and more problems: the propellants Nitric acid/Hydrazine
they unstable in combustion, give a high frequencies oscillation on engine Wat add up to Pogo...
and in worst case destroy the Engine (like Ariane 1 test flight 2 or sonic cut on Titan 2 ground test)

but let face it Von Braun was very Conservative in Engine design and the F-1 was still a Utopia in 1950s
 

archipeppe

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Michel Van said:
but let face it Von Braun was very Conservative in Engine design and the F-1 was still a Utopia in 1950s
You're right Michel, and that's the main difference between a real scientist and a sci-fi writer.....
 

Justo Miranda

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Strongest structures to cure vibration?
Assembly of the moonships (fragment)
From "The art of Chesley Bonestell" by Ron Miller and Frederick C.Durant III,
Paper Tiger publishing 2001
 

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Michel Van

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Justo Miranda said:
Strongest structures to cure vibration?
TO HEAVY !

they need vibration absorber in feedline
each engine must have a damper in the propellants line

question to prominent Pogo oscillation victim N-1 Booster
original design with 24 engines by Sergei Korolev
later modify to 30 engine by Vasily Mishin
with out Damper ????
 

Justo Miranda

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I understand the problem now
Impar number of engines may be best to cure resonance as helicopters tail rotor?
 

Michel Van

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Impar number of engines may be best to cure resonance
not quiet
the Saturn V had only 5 x F-1 Engine also problem with Pogo oscillation
the N-1 had 30 x NK-15 engines which there LOX turbo pumps produced Pogo oscillation

you have to find a optima number of engine and suppression of Pogo oscillation.
by control of engine trust like today Space shuttle, or turbo pumps as build in vibration absorber to the feedline


found on YouTube
Disney "man in space" (in 2 parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8f8LTwftOU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUsc-Gc_kg8&NR=1

enjoy ;D
 
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