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Author Topic: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme  (Read 25456 times)

Offline mrmalaya

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Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« on: July 16, 2018, 04:06:04 am »
I might be slightly premature, but this appears to be a system that they want flying alongside the F35 and Typhoon by 2035, with DEW, flexible weapons and cockpit and not so challenging as to raise costs or delay entry into service.

Also open to other partners but primarily made for the UK and produced by Team Tempest: RR, Leonardo, MBDA and BAE Systems.

AVM Rochelle is quoted as saying: "Funding is real. We are working at pace."

« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 04:14:02 am by mrmalaya »

Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 04:10:34 am »
Rolls engine

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Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 04:13:38 am »
UK Combat Air Strategy is out:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/combat-air-strategy-an-ambitious-vision-for-the-future

I can also now say I acted as an Independent Scientific & Technical Advice (ISTA) register member to MOD on this, as well as leading a public project for the Low Cost by Design network already posted on the FCAS thread.

Fascinating stuff. Will appear in the archives in 20 years!
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 04:14:54 am »
But will there be a book in 20 years too? :)

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 04:19:22 am »
From the government publication:



Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 04:25:06 am »
But will there be a book in 20 years too? :)
The rate I write at.....!  ???
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2018, 04:35:23 am »
I can't help but feel I have seen this design before though. Not recently, but before. Can anyone help?


Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2018, 04:58:42 am »

Online Hood

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2018, 04:59:25 am »
I'd be wary of reading too much into a plastic mock-up. I must admit, I was expecting an announcement of joining the Franco-German effort rather than an attempt to revive a home-grown design.
The media are jumping all over this as Britain's new fighter, but if you listen to what Gavin Williamson says, its actually only a concept and is a shrewd political move to show willingness to collaborate. The mock-up is a nice PR item but I feel we'll look back on this in 20 years the same as the BAe P.110 mock-up back in the 80s.

Team Tempest was formed back in April to develop a low-cost UCAS demonstrator building previous work which included Taranis. Since then with all the talk of European fighters the emphasis has obviously shifted to something that can be optionally manned. I wonder how much of TF-X is in this design (maybe that's why this mock-up looks so familiar?)
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/team-tempest-pursues-ucas-demonstrator-deal-447301/
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 08:10:00 am by Hood »

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 05:01:59 am »
I'd be wary of reading too much into a plastic mock-up. I must admit, I was expecting an announcement of joining the Franco-German effort rather than an attempt to revive a home-grown design.
The media are jumping all over this as Britain's new fighter, but if you listen to what Gavin Williamson says, its actually only a concept and is a shrewd political move to show willingness to collaborate. The mock-up is a nice PR item but I feel we'll look back on this in 20 years the same as the BAe P.110 mock-up back in the 80s.

Team Tempest was formed back in April to develop a low-cost UCAS demonstrator building previous work which included Taranis. Since then with all the talk of European fighters the emphasis has obviously shifted to something that can be optionally manned. I wonder how much of TFX is in this design (maybe that's why this mock-up looks so familiar?)
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/team-tempest-pursues-ucas-demonstrator-deal-447301/

It looks more like the project we are trying to partner with the Swedes on rather than Germany & France.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 05:11:26 am »
My take on it is that it is funded, with a production decision to be made by 2020 with the finery of R&D being done in the meantime.

2035 IOC is the official line.

Offline Deino

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 05:33:42 am »
Interesting... however how likely is this to ever materialise as a pure British project in mind of the Brexit and after France and Germany decided to go ahead with their joint effort?
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Offline Harrier

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Offline CJGibson

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2018, 07:10:09 am »
But will there be a book in 20 years too? :)
The rate I write at.....!  ???

Beat me to it!

Chris

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2018, 07:15:56 am »
I can't help but feel I have seen this design before though. Not recently, but before. Can anyone help?

Sort of like a stealthier and uglier version of Rayner's Rockwell ATF design?

Or some FB-22 iterations
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 07:20:39 am by red admiral »

Offline litzj

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2018, 07:30:02 am »
in the figure of explanation for “flexible payload configuration”

Is that four ucavs in weapon bay of tempest? it seems like that...

so tempest could be carrier of ucav? hu?

Offline Jeb

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2018, 07:34:34 am »
I can't help but feel I have seen this design before though. Not recently, but before. Can anyone help?

Sort of like a stealthier and uglier version of Rayner's Rockwell ATF design?

Or some FB-22 iterations

I see F-22/F-35 forebody, X-32 delta from the wingroots back, with the tailpipe section from an old F7U Cutlass. It's like a weird kitbash.

Offline phil gollin

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2018, 07:42:26 am »
.

I'm at a bit of a loss how a single (sort of) airframe will be a good choice for both a manned and unmanned aircraft.

The difference in weight and free space in the unmanned version would allow a smaller/ more agile/whatever aircraft.

It would seem to be better to design and build two closely related aircraft, using the same engines, sensors, etc....   Yes, more expensive, but more cost effective when bought for service.

.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2018, 07:56:16 am »
There are definitely large pods which appear to be designed to bolt on under or on the side of the aircraft, and that is definitely a weapons bay full of UCAVs- which might answer some questions.

As to which other design I am channelling, it's mainly when I see the graphic of the aircraft from above, but the other design was black. I'm definitely thinking American and not a fighter, but no matter.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 08:25:11 am by mrmalaya »

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2018, 08:06:20 am »
This design looks more like a 5.5 generation aircraft than a true 6 generation.

Offline GARGEAN

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2018, 08:35:07 am »
Rolls engine
Well-well-well, what we have here under number 1? Is that radar blocker?

Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2018, 08:36:42 am »
There are definitely large pods which appear to be designed to bolt on under or on the side of the aircraft, and that is definitely a weapons bay full of UCAVs- which might answer some questions.

As to which other design I am channelling, it's mainly when I see the graphic of the aircraft from above, but the other design was black. I'm definitely thinking American and not a fighter, but no matter.

These?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 08:39:25 am by Harrier »
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Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2018, 08:37:00 am »
This design looks more like a 5.5 generation aircraft than a true 6 generation.

Difficult to define either of those. What is 6th generation? 5th gen but tailless and with a laser?

What's needed is something sufficiently ahead of the threat at an affordable cost

Offline GARGEAN

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2018, 08:44:59 am »
This design looks more like a 5.5 generation aircraft than a true 6 generation.
Is it even 5+? What makes it that way? We don't know anything about it's LO chars, about its weaponry, its sensors, its software fusion...

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2018, 08:50:06 am »
I think that as a design it is back to the CAD computers, a total redesign is needed before the RAF will accept this fighter. 

Offline muttbutt

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2018, 09:26:20 am »
I don't mean to be a downer but......no bucks, no Buck Rodgers. I'm not sure where the cash for this is supposed to come from.
2 Billion won't come close to cutting it.

Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2018, 09:59:11 am »
This appears to be more an attempt to remain credible and sustain some design capacity until the eventual international partnering to actually build something somewhat or completely different.

As mentioned above by other contributors not clear who’s going to paying for this to be much more than an interesting design exercise and a brief entry in a future BSP book.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2018, 10:24:55 am »
This design looks more like a 5.5 generation aircraft than a true 6 generation.
Is it even 5+? What makes it that way? We don't know anything about it's LO chars, about its weaponry, its sensors, its software fusion...

I tend to think of sixth generation fighter designs as being tailess.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 10:35:51 am »
"Tempest"? Seriously? After Typhoon, Texan, Black Widow, Avenger and a few others, deciders prove without a doubt their lack of imagination... Or is is something else? Nah... Surely they wouldn't try to play on the sensitive nostalgic patriotic chord to render the public and the politicians sympathetic to highly expensive military acquisitions, would they?  ::) ;D

Offline GARGEAN

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2018, 10:39:27 am »

I tend to think of sixth generation fighter designs as being tailess.
Eh... By far not necessary. There are still definitions to be made (and remade, as they are mostly speculations: see old "supermaneuverability" and "supercruise" graphs that magically dissapeared when F-35 came), but being tailess is hardly one that will be included. There probably will be things like "high(Mach 3) speed", "optional pilot or UAV", "energy weapons", "extended survivability due to next gen ECM and DIRCM" and so on. One could only imagine now.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2018, 10:52:59 am »
I don't mean to be a downer but......no bucks, no Buck Rodgers. I'm not sure where the cash for this is supposed to come from.
2 Billion won't come close to cutting it.

£2bn isn't meant to though. The bulk of development and production spend will be around 2025-2035, after the Dreadnought peak has passed. But this is still quite a bit of cash in comparison to other projects around the world e.g. UK's contribution to Typhoon development was around £8-10bn in today's money I believe.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2018, 10:55:23 am »
I think that as a design it is back to the CAD computers, a total redesign is needed before the RAF will accept this fighter.

Why do you think that? Its obviously an early design iteration and as stated, just a look at what the future could look like.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2018, 11:06:53 am »
http://aviationweek.com/farnborough-airshow-2018/uk-future-fighter-hinges-cooperation

A bit of analysis and further details in this Aviation Week article

UK-Japan-Sweden programme 40:40:20?

Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 11:10:25 am »
I don't mean to be a downer but......no bucks, no Buck Rodgers. I'm not sure where the cash for this is supposed to come from.
2 Billion won't come close to cutting it.

£2bn isn't meant to though. The bulk of development and production spend will be around 2025-2035, after the Dreadnought peak has passed. But this is still quite a bit of cash in comparison to other projects around the world e.g. UK's contribution to Typhoon development was around £8-10bn in today's money I believe.

The original UK cost for EFA was to be £3bn in today's money. Even a national programme was to cost only a little more. Much of the increase was due to politics. Avoiding such things can save a lot, and speed things up.
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Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2018, 11:12:21 am »
http://aviationweek.com/farnborough-airshow-2018/uk-future-fighter-hinges-cooperation

A bit of analysis and further details in this Aviation Week article

UK-Japan-Sweden programme 40:40:20?

UK carriers are here to stay. Japan has STOVL capable carriers, sorry helicopter, er, destroyers (ahem). Sweden likes to go off road. So maybe...!!! ;)
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Offline Harrier

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Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2018, 11:28:13 am »
I think that as a design it is back to the CAD computers, a total redesign is needed before the RAF will accept this fighter.

Why do you think that? Its obviously an early design iteration and as stated, just a look at what the future could look like.

As a design right now it would not survive for very long in the current close in dogfighting against the likes of the Su-57 with the advanced thrust vectored R-74M.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2018, 11:29:12 am »
Analysis from RUSI's Justin Bronk to add to the pile:
https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defence-systems/enter-tempest

Offline SteveO

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2018, 11:33:12 am »
Yay! the UK still has the capability to build a mock-up  ;D

BBC article mentions that the hardware and systems for Tempest will start life as Typhoon upgrades. Mature hardware and systems into a new airframe always sounds like one of those good ideas. Hopefully they will give it a nose job or maybe it just needs to bulk up to look more in proportion!

It reminded me of this article someone posted on SP a while back - Recent Combat Aircraft Life Cycle Costing Developments with DERA (page 5 fig 7 and the Low Support Vehicle.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2018, 11:45:43 am »
As a design right now it would not survive for very long in the current close in dogfighting against the likes of the Su-57 with the advanced thrust vectored R-74M.

Shoot it with the laser?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2018, 12:01:34 pm »
There has been quite a lot of work already towards the ideas illustrated, whether it's the flexible payload bay, new engine or the energy requirements for DEW.

I think it's fair to say that the team will have an excellent idea of what airframe design will be required to meet the RAF requirement and this is going to be an A2A specialist.

The use of vertical fins is actually the bit I find hardest to swallow, but as has been said before, the airframe is designed so as not to increase development time/risk and let the systems and weapons do the heavy lifting.


Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2018, 12:50:34 pm »
Only issue is going to be funding this probably means buying a lot less F-35s and in turn upsetting the Americans. Maybe that’s a price we’ll just have to pay.

Offline Moose

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2018, 12:53:11 pm »
The "_ Gen" thing is, at this point, hard to get too worked up about given all the static about which planes are in which generation. I will say that lasers and advanced engines are good ambitions to have and I'd put those as more "generation defining" features than tail/no-tail.

Only issue is going to be funding this probably means buying a lot less F-35s and in turn upsetting the Americans. Maybe that’s a price we’ll just have to pay.
I wouldn't say that, this might effect out-year purchases of F-35 but nothing immediate.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2018, 12:56:07 pm »
Flightglobal seem to have quite a few quotes I haven’t seen before in other articles.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/farnborough-tempest-concept-underscores-uk-fighter-450327/

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Offline kcran567

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2018, 08:15:38 pm »
Is this air superiority, Typhoon replacement? Is the F-35 going to overlap with this program?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2018, 11:18:51 pm »
It is aimed at the Typhoon replacement requirement, although I don't imagine that it will be strictly A2A in role (as with Typhoon).

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2018, 11:32:24 pm »
Gotta say the nose chines on this thing are distinctive.

2035 is quite a while away, and not an unreasonable in service date for a new clean sheet project of its ambition. Can't help but wonder what "5+" generation aircraft US, China, Russia may be flying by then though.

The development timelines of current and new 5th gen fighters reminds me of 4th gen and 4+ gen fighters of past decades where the US and USSR were the first to arguably put out the first iterations of 4th gen fighter aircraft, and then succeeded by the so called "4+" generation of fighters emerged from Europe, Asia, and in forms of new variants of existing US and Russian fighters.

Not too dissimilar this time around with 5th gen fighters where US led the pack followed by Russia but also this time with China, who will field the first major types of 5th gen fighters, but with Europe and Asia fielding their own 5+ gen fighters some years after, likely to be accompanied by upgraded variants of F-35, Su-57, J-20 in a similar period. History certainly does rhyme.

Offline galgot

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2018, 11:51:43 pm »
Why do I have that deja vu feeling…

When BAe presented his EAP mockup, and Dassault his Rafale models.

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2018, 12:16:31 am »
Any shiny pdfs on this beast?
In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline datafuser

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2018, 12:48:39 am »
The Bank of England electronically created new money worth £435 billion to buy, mostly, UK government bonds in 2008-2016.

Can the UK government issue bonds in this way again to pay for the development of a new fighter?

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2018, 12:54:45 am »
It's funny how the development of a fighter is apparently so political for some people. I suppose they become totemic of that countries perceived success and role in the world.

Offline CJGibson

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2018, 01:43:25 am »
Why do I have that deja vu feeling…

When BAe presented his EAP mockup, and Dassault his Rafale models.

Beat me to it!

Chris

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2018, 01:53:01 am »
My further thoughts and doubts having read more about the Tempest.

Is this actually a military requirement or a strategic industrial requirement? To my mind its the latter. All the major European aircraft companies are jumping up and down waving brochures and pretty looking CAD models hoping to attract the Air Marshalls of Europe to influence their political minsters to sign off some big cheques. I've yet to see any rational defence planning from the major countries about what they actually want.

It looks as though FCAS as we knew it via Taranis and Nueron is dead. Both France and now Britain have gone down the manned fighter route (optionally manned seems a useful get-out clause but it seem badly inefficient). Is this because the defence staffs found no need for an unmanned strike platform or is it because they are unwilling to commit to unmanned combat aircraft (a bit like the Blue Streak silo theory)? Team Tempest, as far as I know, were created to look at FCAS options and they obviously came firmly down on the side of a manned fighter.

How serious is the Tempest design? We've recently discussed all the BAE Systems FCAS concepts since 2014, all have looked completely different and seem to have been designed for slightly different requirements. How solid any of them actually were as opposed to interesting artwork designed to attract attention is open to question. Tempest looks quite different from what BAE has been recently offering, it even looks quite different from TF-X. It is obviously larger than the F-35 but its not clear what the role of this airframe is, a pure fighter or a strike platform? The F-35 seems to be the strike option of choice for the RAF at the moment and probably will remain to be so. I don't think the F-35 can be ruled out of remaining an effective air defence fighter with further systems and engine upgrades (assuming the RAF has to money to buy upgrades for F-35 and Typhoon). Does the RAF really need to duplicate its manned fighters in 20 years time?

The money is important. Williamson has been trying to prise money from the Treasury and Cabinet but without any success so far. Collaboration is a must, but I get the sense public stunts like the unveiling of Tempest are attempts to force the government to release more funds in the longer term by whipping up public interest, just like the P.106 and P.110 'Spitfire II' two decades ago. Whether that is possible remains to be seen. There still a lot of maneuvering to be done, I don't think we'll get a clearer picture until 2020 when everyone by then will have chosen their sides.

Rolls-Royce has clearly been working on new engine technology for some time, but the Franco-German fighter looks likely to have an MTU-led engine consortium. Rolls-Royce need to get onto a programme and perhaps an Anglo-Swiss fighter programme is the only chance they have.
Part of me can't help wondering if some kind of US-Japan-UK hybrid F-22/F-35 wouldn't be another option to keep and captialise on BAE's buy-in to the F-35 programme.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 01:56:09 am by Hood »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2018, 02:15:39 am »
I know it must be sorely tempting to see this in the context of programmes from decades before (what choice do we have?), but to view it in isolation for a moment:

Billions of pounds have been committed to the first stage which gets us through the "business case" and then into a decision to go forward with a project by 2020! The IOC date of 2035 is relatively ambitious and plenty of words have been expended on the need to break the long development cycle and it's associated spiralling costs.

The project is designed to be upgraded throughout it's life, with software and hardware easily transferred onto the airframe.

Team Tempest have already spent significant time and money (before the launch of the project) in demonstrating key aspects such as flexible weapons bay and evolution of avionics and weaponry.

This programme is designed to upgrade Typhoon in RAF service, and those upgrades and experience will then feed into the systems used on the future fighter.

Whilst the illustrated aircraft differ from the mock up, it is clear that they are not proposing a revolutionary airframe (although I am told that in pre-launch breifings BAE had 2 such designs which they admitted were less likely to make it into the air).


All in all, it's going to get headlines because of the industrial implications. If Taranis is indeed now in the long grass, this programme is merely an extension of the oft stated desire to do it for ourselves. Even is Japan or Sweden jump in for the big win, the programme and it's timelines are already defined to a greater extent than the projects from the past 40 years.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 03:43:44 am by mrmalaya »

Offline CJGibson

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2018, 03:03:42 am »
I know it must be sorely tempting to see this in the context of programmes from decades before (what choice do we have?), but to view it in isolation for a moment:


Offline shedofdread

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2018, 04:07:15 am »
Not unlike this FOAS concept..?

One wonders if there were the bits to make a mock-up for same floating around the 'back of the shed'? ;)

I promise that's the last cynical thing I'll post re Tempest....

Offline sferrin

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2018, 05:00:53 am »
It's funny how the development of a fighter is apparently so political for some people. I suppose they become totemic of that countries perceived success and role in the world.

Not "perceived". I take it you hail from a country that can NOT develop it's own fighter independently? 
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2018, 05:21:08 am »
No, I'm from the UK and we have chosen not to develop our own fighters for some time now ;D


Offline Archibald

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2018, 06:07:51 am »
Nice mockup, really. I kind of enjoy it. As noted earlier - think of the P.110 mockups (also happened with P.1216, unfortunately). Perhaps Sweden will jump aboard that ship.
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2018, 06:22:09 am »
Part of me does wonder to what extent the mock-up ways designed around the exhibition space rather than the other way around. The other designs being considered probably have as much validity at this stage as the one used in the mock-up. This images are from Tim Robinson who was present at the breifing day prior to the launch.


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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2018, 06:27:47 am »
This is scetch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2018, 07:16:26 am »
Yes, I didn't mean the same day as the Air Combat launch.  Still pretty ropey evidence either way.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2018, 07:35:19 am »
Wow that is aggressive timing! 17 years to get it into production by 2035! I see they are following American (and Lockheed) style of product development timing. Weapons programs have become nothing more than jobs and money distribution programs. Imagine this timing in the day of the Phantom II... Kicked off in circa 1953 and it would have entered service in 1970. The Phantom was the most complex aircraft conceived at that time and they pulled it off in about 7 years entering service in 1960. Arguably, relatively speaking, the Phantom was more complex to the engineers engineering it than aircraft of today as the Phantom was heavily laden with complicated avionics and radar who technology was not even on the drawing boards when the engineers who engineered it all were adolescents. It was all Gee Whiz Buck Rogers technology back then.
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Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2018, 08:12:58 am »
When is the Typhoon out of service date supposed to be?  If we know that then we can start to predict when a successor fighter should be ready for service.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2018, 08:37:28 am »
Wow that is aggressive timing! 17 years to get it into production by 2035! I see they are following American (and Lockheed) style of product development timing.
You might want to look at the Typhoon/Rafale timings before thinking this is a US thing.  Don't forget to add additional time to develop VLO tech.
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Offline Avimimus

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2018, 09:23:51 am »
This is scetch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.

Good to know. I like the F-16XLish one on the right. I also like Replica... whereas the mockup is... well... unpretty and unoptimised. If there is only a 40% chance of successful development then aesthetics are a valid criterion, no?

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2018, 11:58:51 am »
That's what I call a clearer version
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 12:01:04 pm by flateric »
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Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2018, 12:55:33 pm »
In the middle picture, the Tempest has a chine that makes it look a bit like the YF-23.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2018, 01:15:53 pm »
I wonder whatever happened to that BAE design that looked like a Bird of Prey that they used in some of their promo videos two or three years ago.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2018, 01:54:55 pm »
I'm assuming it's one of the ones they said (during the Warton press day) is less likely to actually get chosen.

Perhaps if BAE can convince potential partners that tailless job is safe, it might make a reappearance.

Offline Rhinocrates

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2018, 04:57:07 pm »
A close-up of the image posted by Flateric above, showing the intakes and lower fuselage that aren't clear in the photos of the model.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 05:11:11 pm by Rhinocrates »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2018, 05:13:47 pm »
To my eye, the Tempest's design features fix several of the short-comings of existing LO/VLO fighter aircraft:

1. The explicit statement of "balanced-survivability" is a rejection, either through operational analysis or budget analysis, of the pursuit of even greater stealth. I suspect operational analysis, as we are starting to see more and more comments to the effect that stealth is a necessary, but not sufficient, component of future aircraft survivability.

2. The reconfigurable payload bay and planned conformal carry is an explicit attempt to return some flexibility to stealth aircraft. I suspect the origins are that the F-22 and F-35 do not have a lot of room internally to fit different payloads. For the USAF, this is less of an issue because the USAF can afford other support aircraft to carry payloads. For the RAF and like-minded airforces, this will be an issue. China and Russia have already moved towards excessively large bays on their stealth aircraft, this is a continuation and amplification of that trend.


Now, the curious question is if we will see similar design decisions made in the PCA. I think so.

Offline bobbymike

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2018, 06:36:42 pm »
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a22168844/uk-new-fighter-jet-tempest/

Quote
The United Kingdom has announced the country’s first entirely British fighter in decades. The new Tempest fighter project will primarily involve British defense contractors, forging a plane that could be used for domestic use and export. The British government says the fighter should be ready for service by 2035.

U.K. Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson introduced a full-sized model of the new Tempest multi-role fighter today at the Farnborough Air Show. The Tempest incorporates a host of new technologies that would surpass what's in the F-35, meaning the British plane would join the growing group of "sixth-generation" fighters now on the drawing board. Several defense correspondents and aviation experts tweeted out some juicy details from briefings, particularly the Royal Aeronautical Society’s Tim Robinson.
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Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2018, 08:07:56 pm »
Doesn't it have the look of a 21st century Gloster Javelin?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2018, 07:29:02 am »
That nose design has been seen before hasn't it?

I wonder what the benefits are?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 07:31:14 am by mrmalaya »

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2018, 07:56:04 am »
That nose design has been seen before hasn't it?

I wonder what the benefits are?

I thought the nose looked somewhat familiar.

Offline fredymac

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2018, 08:37:21 am »

« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 09:15:00 am by fredymac »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2018, 03:50:35 am »
talking of mockup quality...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2018, 03:56:25 am »
Here is an article which attempts to put some context into the programme, both in terms of potential operational requirements and production planning:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/tempest-a-look-at-what-britains-next-generation-combat-jet-could-be/





Offline galgot

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2018, 04:12:36 am »
Well , don’t know about how good the design is, and the product if it ends up being actually built will have some changes anyway.
But really, they should learn how to put the roundels correctly on their infographics. Off centered, weird perspective… looks awfully like a very rush job.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2018, 04:15:58 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline sienar

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2018, 08:28:58 am »
Oversized cockpit for the mockup?

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2018, 08:48:09 am »
Notice the oblique break line behind the cockpit section suggesting that the front section is modular (man/unmanned?).

Offline robunos

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2018, 09:09:32 am »
Oversized cockpit for the mockup?

Don't want to make the same mistake the Iranians made . . .   ;)   ;D



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« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 09:19:32 am by robunos »
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Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2018, 10:50:02 am »
Oversized cockpit for the mockup?

Don't want to make the same mistake the Iranians made . . .   ;)   ;D



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I do hope that Tempest does'nt end up looking like that,  one badly designed so called Stealth fighter is enough.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #88 on: July 19, 2018, 11:36:53 am »
Without for a minute saying the mock-up/artwork is representative of a production standard aircraft, I wonder why people keep referencing the Iranian fiasco-jet?

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #89 on: July 19, 2018, 12:52:39 pm »
Without for a minute saying the mock-up/artwork is representative of a production standard aircraft, I wonder why people keep referencing the Iranian fiasco-jet?

Too true mrmalaya,  I have grown tired of seeing this plane now,  let this be the last time we ever see this monstrosity ever again on this fine forum.

Offline galgot

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #90 on: July 19, 2018, 01:53:39 pm »
Because the Iranians with their mockup have ridiculed the all mockup idea. A mockup is already a fake thing , they managed to make it so bad that every fighter mockup made after the holy Qaher-313 , people immediately think "oh yeah ! Like that iranian stuff" .
Making a fighter mockup now is a bad pr move . It just look "iranian" now…

Offline robunos

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #91 on: July 19, 2018, 02:11:18 pm »
Well as I was the one who mentioned the Iranians . . .
I was replying, in a tongue-in-cheek fashion, to Sienar's post, that mentioned  an 'oversized cockpit'. I immediately thought of the Quaher-313 mockup, with it's obviously 'undersized' cockpit. It was merely an attempt at whimsy . . .     :-X


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Offline kcran567

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #93 on: July 19, 2018, 04:09:23 pm »
Overall size of the Aircraft looks very smallish, T-38 sized.

 Is the mockup 1:1 or 85%
Intakes on the mock-up look very small also, and the exhaust nozzles look very small.

Any indicators of features of nozzle design? looks like just a square opening. Subsonic?? no visible after-burning nozzles.

Looks like subsonic design for greatly reduced IR? Looks IR stealthy.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 04:20:40 pm by kcran567 »

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #94 on: July 19, 2018, 05:33:47 pm »
The hand sign interface is remarkably clever. I see it as a breakthrough in this field. As I have somewhat experimented some years ago hand sign recognition to controll a swarm of drones in real time, I still think that their way of doing it is brilliant. Let's hope that they will share more of it soon.


Last but not least, those that want to see this as a fake mockup, a soon to be popular internet jocke or are taking this display as a derision are only delusional to themselves: a lot of work, time and money (across various succeeding administrations obviously) went behind this Tempest fury. A remarkable sign of continuity.
Any UK foreigner should be humble watching this scene of transparency with so much being shared so openly with the British public. We don't see this happening often in Europe lately.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 05:39:33 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline Rhinocrates

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #95 on: July 19, 2018, 06:39:50 pm »
Is the mockup 1:1 or 85%
Intakes on the mock-up look very small also, and the exhaust nozzles look very small.

Any indicators of features of nozzle design? looks like just a square opening. Subsonic?? no visible after-burning nozzles


Perspective can be very deceptive and most of the photos of the mockup are close/wide-angle. IIRC it has been described as a large aircraft, comparable to an F-22.

Regarding the intakes, perspective effects are compounded by the stealth angling. A low view in BAE artwork shows that they are actually large - compare views from above and below. Other artworks and infographics show afterburner equipped variable-cycle turbofans, other illustrations show afterburners in use (plus a laser).

Also, as a model of a concept that's in the early stages of development, it will be lacking many details that are as yet unresolved or classified.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 06:49:41 pm by Rhinocrates »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #96 on: July 19, 2018, 06:56:50 pm »
The hand sign interface is remarkably clever.


Since it's a British design, I wonder if it will make use of a very British gesture. :)

Apparently it's origin story is only a myth. http://www.agincourt600.com/2015/06/08/was-the-v-sign-invented-at-the-battle-of-agincourt/
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Offline kcran567

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #97 on: July 19, 2018, 08:35:34 pm »
Will be leveraging this no moving flaps Technology from MAGMA.

It has an interesting look to it.
Wonder what the Advanced Countermeasures could be, a towed decoy in the tail?

Use of Microwave, Quantum or some kind of HAARP array? Side looking Arrays?

The box behind the pilot a fuel tank or part of the energy weapon system?

Offline galgot

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2018, 08:41:45 pm »
Mmh mmh.... And using just the middle finger will launch a fox1 or a fox2, depending if you use both hands.
Brillant indeed   B)

Offline TsrJoe

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #99 on: July 19, 2018, 11:46:01 pm »
Tempest mockup Exhaust and centrebody
...'excuse me mister, is that plane for real'...!!!

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Online Hood

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2018, 01:11:28 am »
That's a nice close-up shot Joe. It even tells who built the mock-up, the Curvature Group.
Looks they construct a very nice array of models and full-size aircraft and railway mock-ups too for several industrial areas.
http://curvaturegroup.co.uk/wp/aerospace-model-making/


Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2018, 10:07:12 am »
U.S Air Force Reps Meet to Discuss Britain’s Future Fighter With UK

Quote
One day following the announcement of Britain’s future combat air system (FCAS) effort, known as Tempest, U.S. Air Force officials plan to discuss the project this week with UK officials.

Tempest was revealed on the first day of the Farnborough Airshow. The aircraft is described as a twin-engine, low-observable fighter.

Air Force Under Secretary Matthew Donovan told reporters interoperability is the most important feature when any partner is building a platform critical to an allied fight.

“Other folks who are going to develop new technologies, we highly encourage that, because we don’t have the corner on the market for sure,” he said. “But we want to make sure that they are going to fit into the joint coalition warfare fighting system they have in the future, so [that] we can agree on standards moving forward.”

Will Roper, assistant secretary of the air force for acquisition, technology and logistics, told reporters during the same briefing the U.S. must work with its allies, especially the UK, on the next generation of air dominance.

“A lot of what we’re going to have to determine about the future depends on the direction that we think threats are evolving, but not just our threats – it’s also the world of commercial technology,” he said. “Now we live in a world where sensors are increasingly propagating because of commercial investment – we have to weigh the pros and cons.”

Roper is visiting the UK’s Rapid Capabilities Office, which is a mirror of the Pentagon’s, to discuss ways the two entities can work together, he said.

“To achieve the National Defense Strategy we can’t do it alone. We’re going to have to be able to not just fight with our allies – we’re going to have to be able to build things with them,” Roper said.


http://m.aviationweek.com/farnborough-airshow-2018/us-air-force-reps-meet-discuss-britain-s-future-fighter-uk

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2018, 10:37:39 am »
Boeing, Saab and now the USAF... Is this the aerospace version of the three kings?

« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 10:41:40 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #104 on: July 20, 2018, 11:24:08 am »
I am here all week at FIAS 2018, and laughingly only read / saw the news on the second day here. Thus I wondered over to the BAE hall

« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 10:42:49 am by flateric »

Offline TsrJoe

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #105 on: July 20, 2018, 01:09:59 pm »
Nice images, thanks for sharing, if you get a chance could you take some detail snaps of the undercarriage, tailfins and rear end, be handy for modelling :) i dont suppose theres any outline drawings of the mockup being handed out ;)
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Offline euroreplica23

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #106 on: July 20, 2018, 02:10:23 pm »
I always liked the Replica and YF23 design obviously. Lambda wings have a weight penalty. This might be overcome, if my observation of the engine and nozzle are correct. It looks like the shape of the nozzle and the 4 pipes running along the engine is a conformal fluidic nozzle system. Apart from offering 3D trust vectoring, it has rather huge weight saving potential (no moving parts). Especially if combined with variable cycle engines.
It also make sense to go for bigger than F35 as this fighter should coexist with the F35. Looks to me that it might be about 17.5m-18m. That's F22 territory and A2A superiority.

Obviously the best chance of any European program is to combine with the French/German program. If for any reason that is not possible and - I can think of plenty - France/Germany should make their fighter smaller and more air defense/strike focused, as they don't have any F35 on order. It also has to be CV capable for the French navy. In order to be remotely affordable, they both should still cooperate under the hood in avionics systems, radar, weapons, counter measures, cockpit, software...
BAE can still cooperate with Saab and maybe Japan and why not Boeing, as well?
Two programs have to have two different fighters and why shouldn't there be two aircraft with different missions. One European "F22" and one "F35" (version A and C only and with 2 engines). The F22 is dead and there is only the F35 with all its well known shortcomings in the market for a continent that will have to be independent in its defense and a lot of further export opportunity.

This is my first post here. Please be kind and forgiving :)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 03:11:48 pm by euroreplica23 »

Offline CJGibson

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #107 on: July 20, 2018, 02:51:04 pm »
Are they taking the piss with 'Remove before flight' on the intake blanks?

Chris

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #108 on: July 20, 2018, 08:41:34 pm »
Are they taking the piss with 'Remove before flight' on the intake blanks?

Chris
Taking the piss? It's  pretty standard to "dress up" mockups.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2018, 01:49:56 am »
Trying not to be cynical here, but I wonder if the Americans are trying to nix a potential competitor by offering BAE a way into the PCA programme?
I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, a joint US-UK-Japanese PCA programme could provide some viable returns.

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2018, 02:44:27 am »
Trying not to be cynical here, but I wonder if the Americans are trying to nix a potential competitor by offering BAE a way into the PCA programme?
I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, a joint US-UK-Japanese PCA programme could provide some viable returns.

A great idea Hood.  Getting a three nation PCA program up and running could in theory make the PCA much more cost effective than either the F-22/F-35 programs.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2018, 03:05:22 am »
Trying not to be cynical here, but I wonder if the Americans are trying to nix a potential competitor by offering BAE a way into the PCA programme?
I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, a joint US-UK-Japanese PCA programme could provide some viable returns.

A great idea Hood.  Getting a three nation PCA program up and running could in theory make the PCA much more cost effective than either the F-22/F-35 programs.

I don't know, but the timing of the presentation, would seem to me be aimed right at the USA not being involved. What with the present President' stance on isolationism, it would seem to be showing, here's what we can do --
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Offline CJGibson

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2018, 03:21:33 am »
No problem with dressing up a mock-up, I was more concerned about a ground crew that would need a reminder to remove the intake covers.

Chris

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2018, 08:25:16 am »
Trying not to be cynical here, but I wonder if the Americans are trying to nix a potential competitor by offering BAE a way into the PCA programme?
I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, a joint US-UK-Japanese PCA programme could provide some viable returns.

I don’t think that will happen as I thought the PCA like the F-22 would not be up for export due to the technology involved.

Anyway I’d rather partner on this project with nations like Japan than the US who probably have rather different requirements to us.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2018, 09:30:46 am »
BAE Systems has big presence in the US so its not beyond the realms of possibility.

From my perspective at present BAE Systems only really has a market in the Middle East, how long that will hold in the face of growing US competition is open to question. SAAB have done very well with the Gripen with second and third-tier nations with generous financing and offsets. SAAB's ideas seem to still be in the cheaper single-engine category that might suit nations with small pockets who can't afford to build their own TF-X or KF-X F-35 look-alikes, hence their insistence on including Gripen E technology. The Tempest is a rather more larger and expensive beast (the Swedes have never operated a twin-jet fighter) more suited to nations with deep pockets and technically competent ground crews to keep them running). Will those competing commercial interests ultimately prevent a BAE/SAAB deal and is each firm's key market actually sustainable for a sixth generation fighter?

Offline Sundog

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2018, 01:45:28 pm »
The reason the U.S.A.F. visited is to reinforce the idea of force integration; i.e. that they use systems that can communicate with each other for coordinated operations. Britain isn't going to get in on PCA anymore than they got in on the F-22.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2018, 06:31:18 am »
Interesting, there are a couple of non-paywall stories, but all quoting the original Times story it seems. This is the best onehttp://www.cityam.com/289555/airbus-ceo-eyes-pan-european-military-merger-form-us-rival

Enders dream seems to be the unification of the defence arms of Airbus, BAE Systems, Dassault, SAAB and Leonardo into one giant defence aerospace company. Whether he wants it under the Airbus banner or separate is not clear, though I suspect the former.

Not sure what to make of this, if anything. Airbus doesn't have a fighter company, it has a 46% stake in Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH via Airbus Defence and Space. Airbus Defence and Space is not a 'fighter' company, its military aircraft products are all transport-related (A400M, MRTT and C295). Perhaps its a tacit admission that Airbus is not qualified to undertake a leading role on a military fast jet programme, especially given their eagerness to follow Dassault's lead.

Still more questions than answers, a few of my ponderings are; is Enders proposing to sell Airbus's stake in Eurofighter to BAE Systems? Is he proposing to dump his troubled Airbus Defence sector so Airbus can concentrate on its airliners? Or does he think BAE Systems will go fully down the systems route and divest itself of Warton to Airbus? Where does Dassault fit into all this and could they survive just as a business jet producer? Would the UK and Sweden as non-EU nations be happy to hand their defence aerospace capabilities to Airbus? In the helicopter field, Airbus and Leonardo are direct competitors, it would be hard to disentangle those competing designs into a rational family of helicopters. 

Offline phil gollin

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2018, 07:02:20 am »
The shape at the front does remind me of the character "Randy" from the film Monsters Inc.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 08:59:03 am by flateric »

Offline TsrJoe

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2018, 11:22:34 am »
Have any ga drawings, dimensional data or even cad images appeared as yet in public of the Tempest design ? Be fun to create the mockup in model form :)

cheers Joe
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2018, 12:40:51 pm »
Sure. BAE will upload full set of NX drawings to their media site soon.
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Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2018, 02:12:28 pm »
If Tom Enders does realise his dream then hopefully something will have been learned from the A400M:

The European defense industry ...is besieged by
 “too many national interests, too much overlap
 and certainly too much waste,”
as well as the tendency for parochially driven
demands on industrial involvement.

EADS CEO, Tom Enders, in AviationWeek.com blog
 'Things with Wings' May 2, 2014
http://aviationweek.com/blog/a400m-horror-horror
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Offline Triton

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2018, 11:05:43 pm »

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« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 11:41:33 pm by Triton »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2018, 11:47:45 pm »

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2018, 11:51:21 pm »
Saab CEO Says Warplane Maker Could Join U.K.-Led Fighter Program

Quote
While Saab is also evaluating a rival Franco-German fighter plan, the Tempest program funded by Britain’s Ministry of Defence and including BAE Systems Plc and Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc has more appeal for the Swedish company, Chief Executive Officer Hakan Buskhe said Friday.

“We’re much more intensive in discussion with the Brits than the other consortium,” Buskhe said in a phone briefing. “It looks very promising, and I think we jointly can do good things together.” BAE once held a 35 percent stake in Saab and the pair cooperated in a venture to help market the Gripen.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-20/saab-ceo-says-warplane-maker-could-join-u-k-led-fighter-program

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #126 on: July 24, 2018, 05:46:20 am »
If Tom Enders does realise his dream then hopefully something will have been learned from the A400M:

The European defense industry ...is besieged by
 “too many national interests, too much overlap
 and certainly too much waste,”
as well as the tendency for parochially driven
demands on industrial involvement.

EADS CEO, Tom Enders, in AviationWeek.com blog
 'Things with Wings' May 2, 2014
http://aviationweek.com/blog/a400m-horror-horror

Just look at MBDA. Consolidation into a single company achieves little because national security restrictions mean that you still have to have independent, firewalled, nationally-based companies to work on national eyes only projects. What you actually end up with are separate companies which share some business services. Not a massive saving.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #127 on: July 24, 2018, 10:59:04 am »
Also, Enders has probably well and truly burnt his bridges with his recent ill-advised attempts to influence government policy and public opinion with regards as to Brexit. Calling his efforts cack handed is a probably a polite way of putting it.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #128 on: July 24, 2018, 03:31:25 pm »
Also, Enders has probably well and truly burnt his bridges with his recent ill-advised attempts to influence government policy and public opinion with regards as to Brexit. Calling his efforts cack handed is a probably a polite way of putting it.

I think you will find that perception is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #129 on: July 24, 2018, 03:42:46 pm »
Perhaps.
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Offline NeilChapman

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #130 on: July 24, 2018, 10:41:26 pm »
RR was bumped from AETD follow-on program in 2012.  Did they continue with their own adaptive-cycle, three-stream engine development? 

Eurofighter production to end by 2023.

£2B invested by 2025

Final investment decisions by 2025.  IoC 2035.

I get they really don't have a choice but is it me or does that seem like a long time?  Based on existing current German and French fighter MCR's it seems they like to purchase planes but not fly or maintain them.  Perhaps the UK has an opportunity to move quickly and garner sales ahead of Airbus but these timelines don't project much confidence.


Offline RavenOne

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #131 on: July 25, 2018, 03:51:46 am »
There are photos of the mock up RIAT previous weekend, probably eyes only to RAF and MoD diginitaries ....laughignly I was at RIAT..

Wondered if it was in the BAe hospitality chalet by the flightline..

cheers

Offline Harrier

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #132 on: July 25, 2018, 06:30:13 am »
The PR exercise at Farnborough, with Team Tempest conflated with the mock-up in the BAE display area, seems to have led people to miss what the Combat Air Strategy says:

26....The delivery of the Future Combat Air System
Technology Initiative is being managed
through a pilot project called ‘Team Tempest’.
This innovative Government-Industry
partnership is being used as a catalyst and
test bed for these changes.

27. The performance of Team Tempest and
wider industry is key to demonstrating that
Government and industry can achieve the
necessary capability and behavioural change.
Our assessment of this performance will be
fundamental to programme decisions in 2020.
Success will prove that the UK is in a strong
position to lead in delivering affordable next
generation capability. Alternative options and
greater flexibility in our national requirements
will have to be considered if performance does
not meet expectations.

Clearly, the mock-up will not lead to a flying aircraft by 2020, if ever.
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #133 on: July 25, 2018, 07:42:47 am »
In that, by 2020 they hope to have an industrial team (with partners) that has a proposal that is affordable- which is not going to look like the mock up.

That said, the mock-up is channelling lots of design cues from other BAE studies over the years and an affordable project is unlikely to be a risky uber-stealth design.

In the mean time, everyone has money to go away and get their design teams working on future stuff...

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #134 on: July 25, 2018, 10:49:33 am »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #136 on: July 28, 2018, 08:04:04 am »
Quote
While a Franco-German alliance would be problematic due to France’s insistence on a dominant role, it does reflect Brexit’s grim political reality. Airbus CEO Tom Enders’ recent comments about being open to a BAE/Airbus fighter unit merger depend on resolution of Brexit and other difficult political obstacles.

Given that Airbus/Germany has already (and most sensibly) ceded the leadership role to France/Dassault, I'm not sure I follow Aboulafia's logic that a Franco-British alliance would necessarily be a more natural match. In terms of technical resources and military requirements it arguably is, but the UK joining reintroduces the thorny issue of leadership - one that proved override all other concerns in the past. BAE's airframe branches joining Airbus Military as proposed by Enders could be an elegant way of solving it, but the uncertainties of Brexit make that a difficult proposition in its own right, as noted.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #137 on: July 28, 2018, 10:12:25 am »
Quote
While a Franco-German alliance would be problematic due to France’s insistence on a dominant role, it does reflect Brexit’s grim political reality. Airbus CEO Tom Enders’ recent comments about being open to a BAE/Airbus fighter unit merger depend on resolution of Brexit and other difficult political obstacles.

Given that Airbus/Germany has already (and most sensibly) ceded the leadership role to France/Dassault, I'm not sure I follow Aboulafia's logic that a Franco-British alliance would necessarily be a more natural match. In terms of technical resources and military requirements it arguably is, but the UK joining reintroduces the thorny issue of leadership - one that proved override all other concerns in the past. BAE's airframe branches joining Airbus Military as proposed by Enders could be an elegant way of solving it, but the uncertainties of Brexit make that a difficult proposition in its own right, as noted.

Not to drag the discussion off topic but some may remember some contributors arguing that Brexit would have absolutely no short, medium or long term negative consequences for the UK aviation industry, and were spitting bile at anyone who dared suggest otherwise.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #138 on: July 30, 2018, 01:19:30 pm »
Tempest unveiling is clear statement of intent

Quote
The UK’s leading industry players and Ministry of Defence played a great hand at the Farnborough air show, with a clear statement of intent that they will not be left behind as their French and German counterparts strive to create a future combat air system.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-tempest-unveiling-is-clear-statement-of-int-450576/

Offline Sundog

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #139 on: July 30, 2018, 05:15:01 pm »
Tempest unveiling is clear statement of intent

Quote
The UK’s leading industry players and Ministry of Defence played a great hand at the Farnborough air show, with a clear statement of intent that they will not be left behind as their French and German counterparts strive to create a future combat air system.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-tempest-unveiling-is-clear-statement-of-int-450576/

Intent is easy. Monetary support is wholly something else. We'll see.

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #140 on: July 30, 2018, 05:40:55 pm »
Whot? The city Vs Neuilly?
....
Don't fool yourself.

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #141 on: July 31, 2018, 01:51:08 am »
1.  Why should being in or out of the EU change cooperation on defence projects?  Apart from childish mentality I cannot see a single reason.  The defence industries of the nations mentioned have collaborated many times and I see no reason this should change.

2.  demonstrating a 'model' or 'toy' which is all those things are, does not guarantee it will be funded or even proceed as a concept.  This is seen many times in the aviation and automotive industries and this is unlikely to change.  The demonstration of intent can drum up cooperation/funding which is the real reason for them, that and giving the media something to talk about.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #142 on: July 31, 2018, 02:04:41 am »
1.  Why should being in or out of the EU change cooperation on defence projects?  Apart from childish mentality I cannot see a single reason.  The defence industries of the nations mentioned have collaborated many times and I see no reason this should change.

Unfortunately Brussels does not agree with that logical point of view. Scorched earth seems to be the official order of the day so far as the EU Commission is concerned.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 02:07:29 am by Grey Havoc »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #143 on: July 31, 2018, 02:15:17 am »
Maybe in a world where defence cooperation projects are not driven by national policies. Don’t underestimate the "childish mentality", or just pi$$ed-off sentiment , whatever you choose to call it, toward England policy from Fr and Germany decision makers since brexit. this both in the industry and in politics.
Brexit as broken a lot of the already small confidence that was there…
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 02:18:27 am by galgot »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #144 on: July 31, 2018, 10:39:43 am »
It’s not productive to make this into a pro and anti- Brexit argument, doubt anything said here would change minds on that score.

However the whole Tempest “thing” smells of a PR exercise that won’t long survive contact with reality.

Comparisons with early 80’s (immediately after the Falklands War) proposals for a new UK only “Spitfire” are potentially apt, coming to relatively little until overtaken by what became Eurofighter (built and paid for in partnership with European allies and friends).

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #145 on: July 31, 2018, 12:09:16 pm »
It is worth repeating that there is a lot of money and effort already going into this programme and it's associated demonstrators- both at a corporate and national level. It is not just a mock up with nothing going on behind it.

The programme is not UK only and they are actively courting partners, but at the same time serious money is being spent on making some progress across the board.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #146 on: July 31, 2018, 12:20:51 pm »
It is worth repeating that there is a lot of money and effort already going into this programme and it's associated demonstrators- both at a corporate and national level. It is not just a mock up with nothing going on behind it.

The UK is putting in a similar amount of money as that spent on YF-22 / YF-23 dem val when you adjust for inflation. Its not peanuts, and not just paper and pr.

Offline NeilChapman

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #147 on: July 31, 2018, 09:02:49 pm »
It is worth repeating that there is a lot of money and effort already going into this programme and it's associated demonstrators- both at a corporate and national level. It is not just a mock up with nothing going on behind it.

The UK is putting in a similar amount of money as that spent on YF-22 / YF-23 dem val when you adjust for inflation. Its not peanuts, and not just paper and pr.

Perhaps that type of money doesn't purchase what it did then.  Even when adjusting for inflation. 

USAF is planning significant investments in NGAD. 

https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/02/15/air-force-wants-invest-heavily-next-gen-technologies.html

"And it plans to start investing heavily in that goal soon, its new budget request for Fiscal 2019 shows. The service asked for $504 million next year for its next-generation air dominance research, development, test and evaluation program.

And that's not all: In its future years defense program [FYDP], showing the next five years of planned spending, the Air Force shows a planned investment of roughly $11 billion over the course of five years for RTD&E on next-gen air dominance.
"
And that doesn't include the "other" money that's being invested in engine tech, etc.

That being said, I applaud the UK for committing the $2.6Billion over the next 7 years to make something happen.  If I understand this correctly, it's seed money to see a new airframe come to fruition.  Has it been reported what the 2019 and 2020 budget numbers will be?

I know they are talking about industry partners but have they specifically spoken about other nations as partners? e.g. Are they expecting to design a new airframe for 2.6B or are they hoping to get out in front of a Germany/France solution in hopes of getting others to jump on board for a new Eurofighter-type program?


« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 09:40:13 pm by NeilChapman »

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #148 on: August 03, 2018, 12:37:32 pm »
1.  Why should being in or out of the EU change cooperation on defence projects?  Apart from childish mentality I cannot see a single reason.  The defence industries of the nations mentioned have collaborated many times and I see no reason this should change.

Unfortunately Brussels does not agree with that logical point of view. Scorched earth seems to be the official order of the day so far as the EU Commission is concerned.

Keep your politics out of this thread.

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #149 on: August 03, 2018, 07:51:50 pm »
Yeah!
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #150 on: August 04, 2018, 02:06:55 pm »
Good starting point for sizing
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #151 on: August 04, 2018, 03:20:14 pm »
Nice pictures Flateric. It looks like a pretty compact aircraft, fairly small?

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #152 on: August 04, 2018, 03:22:03 pm »
Good pictures. The placement of the nose landing gear looks rather whacky, as the model isn't restricted by a chin inlet. Goes without saying that the final product probably won't look like this. Hell, I bet the design as it current is doesn't look like this.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 03:23:35 pm by Steven »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #153 on: August 04, 2018, 06:47:46 pm »
http://jaesan-aero.blogspot.com/2018/08/more-information-for-uks-tempest.html

I have estimated UK's mock up using simple math.

Although its physical size is about that of MiG-29 or Hornet.

Its reference wing area is about that of F-22.

More interestingly, we could figure out size of UCAV for swarm tactics.

<Estimated Specification of Tempest>

Length : 17.5m

Span : 12.8m

Height : 3.7m

Reference Wing Area : 86m^2 (926ft^2)

Size of Internal Weapon Bay : 8.7 X 1.9m

Length of Fuselage : 11.5m


<Estimated Specification of UCAV inside of Tempest>

Length : 1.56m

Span : 1.9m
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 08:24:36 pm by litzj »

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #154 on: August 05, 2018, 04:40:23 am »
Is there no sign of side internal bays for ASRAAM carriage?  As far as I can tell there is no side bays at this moment, perhaps they might be included in a future redesign.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #155 on: August 05, 2018, 11:25:34 am »
Whilst I think it's too speculative to read too much into the mock-up, bolt on bays are included in the artwork.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #156 on: August 06, 2018, 11:57:33 pm »
First attempt for a 3-view, the raw svg-drawing is attached, too, so feel free to modify it.
The shape of the inlets is still dubious to me, thought I used a pleated and cut piece of paper
as a 3--model ...  :-\
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 12:01:27 am by Jemiba »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #157 on: August 07, 2018, 01:09:30 am »
Nice ! (your drawing i mean :p)
One thing I noticed is that the front fuselage has kind of a angular concave section on the lower sides, but then when you see the section at the intakes level, the intakes don’t fit inside that concave space. instead there is an added volume to fit the fuselage section to the intake inner sides.
I suppose that concave area is to have some near vertical front fuselage sides to fit antennas while keeping the frontal area/structural weight down as they want ? Dunno…
Edit: or that added volume is a Dsi ?!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:32:41 am by galgot »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #158 on: August 07, 2018, 02:14:04 am »
Tempest intakes probably miss any kind of diverters at all like Taranis to save weight and be less complex - as RR next gen engines should have "distortion tolerant fan systems" as mentioned at Tempest presentation slides.

UPD Well, at close inspection it's not as simple design as it looks at first sight...
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 03:37:00 am by flateric »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #159 on: August 07, 2018, 03:42:35 am »
Two more photos of Tempest mockup being towed to BAE tent at RIAT'18/RAF Cosford
via t.me/infantmilitario
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 03:44:11 am by flateric »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #160 on: August 07, 2018, 04:36:25 am »
Ah yes, even more visible from that pict thanks. with smooth flat transition from the side to the canopy, missed that.
Looks like a pelican head...

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #161 on: August 07, 2018, 04:53:07 am »
brilliant work Jens, there are a few nuances on the mockup which I was having trouble with visualising, your drawing provides a basis to enable making a model of the design, most appreciated, many thanks indeed :)

cheers, joe
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #162 on: August 07, 2018, 05:13:58 am »
...
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #164 on: August 07, 2018, 06:20:56 am »
As cone? of DSI, is it too small and smooth?

As shown in F-35, it should be large

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #165 on: August 07, 2018, 07:43:56 am »
I have estimated UK's mock up using simple math.
I wonder why you went through a complicated and less accurate way of measuring overall lenght using tire size when you have Meteor lenght that approximately fits distance from NLG to MLG wheel axes...
And I wouldn't trust top view/weapons bay size schematics on placard too much.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 07:47:09 am by flateric »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #166 on: August 07, 2018, 10:29:32 am »
The Meteor was 2-3m away from the centreline so with perspective won't give a good measurement. Better to scale from that RIAT sideview in post 150, e.g. from the main landing gear wheel diameter.

There's definitely a bump intake. The lips are more swept than F-35 so more of the bulk of the bump is covered by the lips.

Good effort on the drawing

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #167 on: August 07, 2018, 11:12:46 am »
Not sure if helpful
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #168 on: August 08, 2018, 03:33:31 am »
I have estimated UK's mock up using simple math.
I wonder why you went through a complicated and less accurate way of measuring overall lenght using tire size when you have Meteor lenght that approximately fits distance from NLG to MLG wheel axes...
And I wouldn't trust top view/weapons bay size schematics on placard too much.

yes, ur idea looks better. If I have any time for doing this again, I'll do this way.

Offline galgot

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #169 on: August 08, 2018, 12:23:44 pm »
Not sure if helpful
Nice but i think Jemiba's drawing is much better shape wise. Specially the nose part.
Looks like they took a F-22 nose for that one.

Offline TsrJoe

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #170 on: August 09, 2018, 12:31:59 pm »
...'excuse me mister, is that plane for real'...!!!

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #171 on: August 15, 2018, 12:10:30 pm »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #172 on: August 15, 2018, 01:13:44 pm »
may be of help for 3-views (h/t TsrJoe)
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #173 on: August 17, 2018, 01:26:18 pm »
On the first page of this thread, Hood said:

Quote
I'd be wary of reading too much into a plastic mock-up. I must admit, I was expecting an announcement of joining the Franco-German effort rather than an attempt to revive a home-grown design.
The media are jumping all over this as Britain's new fighter, but if you listen to what Gavin Williamson says, its actually only a concept and is a shrewd political move to show willingness to collaborate. The mock-up is a nice PR item but I feel we'll look back on this in 20 years the same as the BAe P.110 mock-up back in the 80s.

It's a concept representing where Team Tempest's thinking was at long enough ago for them to have been able to build a couple of fibreglass mock-ups. One week before Farnborough, BAE Systems showed a group of journalists a slide showing a quartet of FCAS concepts, and AFM have made a pretty good stab at showing these on page 96 of the issue that came out yesterday (the September issue). Might one of these be more likely to become FCAS? Who knows - we're still a way from defining the eventual vehicle.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #174 on: August 18, 2018, 01:05:12 am »
...which I'm sure will be better than the notepad sketches I was after anyway!

Taken in the round, the handful of designs might be more informative.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #175 on: August 18, 2018, 12:22:12 pm »
I've added the panel lines visible in the CGI and the colour scheme from post #69
(Thank you Flateric, thank you Paul !). The latter certainly not for number crunchers ...  ;)
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #176 on: August 18, 2018, 04:53:26 pm »
some serrated vent doors underside
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #177 on: August 19, 2018, 02:27:26 am »
Edited...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 02:31:12 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #178 on: August 19, 2018, 05:04:17 am »
I've added the panel lines visible in the CGI and the colour scheme from post #69
(Thank you Flateric, thank you Paul !). The latter certainly not for number crunchers ...  ;)

I’ve been admiring your drawings, Jembiba. Great work!

However, I think that you’ve fallen into the trap of improving on reality, and of making the Tempest look as though it had been designed with an eye to aesthetics, and because of that I think that you have missed some of the odd proportions of the aircraft. I hope you’ll take the following observations in the spirit in which they are intended.


Front view:

The canopy seems too wide or the forward fuselage is too narrow. There’s more distance between the edge of the LERX/Chine and the edge of the canopy, and it ‘bulges’ downwards more with heftier ‘shoulders’.

The intakes slope inwards less steeply.

I think that the main wheels should be thinner/narrower, and the wheel track seems narrower than you have drawn.

The lower forward fuselage is narrower than the upper part, and is more U-shaped than you seem to have shown. From below the aircraft has a really pronounced LERX.

The nose gear doors are further apart and ‘toe’ inwards when open.

I think the whole fuselage should be broader and ‘flatter’ over more of its surface.

The tailfins seem too canted, and too close together at the roots.

The nosewheels seem too small. This is a Tornado undercarriage, so the nosewheels should not be that much smaller than the main wheels.

Comparing the drawing with a good Tornado drawing would be interesting – I wonder if the wheelbase/track is the same? I wonder whether it would give a different impression of the aircraft’s overall size?


Side view:

The nose gear doors are more sharply pointed than your drawing shows, I think.

The main gear doors look a little small.

I think that the tail sting looks a little ‘fat’ and ‘droopy’?


Plan view:

I think that the fuselage is too narrow and perhaps too ‘small’. If you look at how far apart the engines are, and then look at how much ‘fatter’ the exhausts are than the engines themselves, it starts to explain how there could be a significant weapons bay between them, and why the top of the fuselage looks so much like a tennis court!

I’m not sure about the six ‘staggered’ square panels on the drawing – I can only see four on most of the released artwork.



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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #179 on: August 19, 2018, 06:48:11 am »
This is a sketch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.
Probably these top down views of these studies are based on sketches from that BAE Warton media day.

Source: Air Force Monthly, Issue September 2018, page 96
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #180 on: August 19, 2018, 07:07:26 am »
That certainly adds some context.

The mock-up we have been shown is perhaps the design which is most eye-catching and yet balances impact with lower risk (I can't imagine what the manned Taranis would have done to the "internet").

The 3rd design with the big wing, puts me in mind of this big wing F35 study:



« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 07:10:15 am by mrmalaya »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #181 on: August 19, 2018, 07:52:21 am »
That certainly adds some context.

The mock-up we have been shown is perhaps the design which is most eye-catching and yet balances impact with lower risk (I can't imagine what the manned Taranis would have done to the "internet").

The 3rd design with the big wing, puts me in mind of this big wing F35 study:

Nice find mrmalaya, It makes me wonder why Lockheed never went with a big delta wing for the F-35 in the first place, it would have helped with the range issue.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #182 on: August 19, 2018, 09:02:10 am »
Nice find mrmalaya, It makes me wonder why Lockheed never went with a big delta wing for the F-35 in the first place, it would have helped with the range issue.

Big wing equals lots of mass, which is bad for STOVL.

Interesting range of shapes in that AFM picture.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #183 on: August 19, 2018, 12:54:06 pm »
the manned Taranis


This was described by Michael Christie (BAE Systems Strategy Director for Air) as a single-engined lightweight fighter optimised to operate in the air policing role in lower-threat environments.


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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #184 on: August 20, 2018, 12:21:11 am »
Jackonicko- thanks for the added detail. So did they conclude the Taranis type  design would be best suited for air policing and does that mean it would be capable of flying fast enough to intercept other aircraft (with or without a pilot on board)?

Certainly a project that left plenty of questions in its wake.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:32:15 am by mrmalaya »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #185 on: August 20, 2018, 03:48:17 am »
I think the similarity to Taranis in planform was largely coincidental. It seemed to incorporate a single vertical tail and would, I'm sure, have an afterburning engine, so I suspect it would be both fast and agile. Its small size would, however, mean limited endurance, and possibly limited combat persistance.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #186 on: August 20, 2018, 04:12:21 am »
Quite the range of concepts. A bit like the pre-ATF studies that ranged from 12,000 lb to ~100,000 lb. Presumably a consideration of balancing mass and platform capability, with a super-LO concept for good measure.

The little one on the left looks like a neo-Gnat for air policing and light attack - think of an O/A-X that's actually useful for something else.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #187 on: August 22, 2018, 09:54:19 pm »
Funny how Tempest's planform reminds me of an old AVPRO concept. Give or take a few small differences.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2018, 02:45:29 am »
Good memory!

I still can't find the image I was thinking Tempest reminded me of, when this all kicked off. It was definitely a big fast US concept rather than something from AVPRO or BAE.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2018, 04:35:53 am »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2018, 07:22:42 am »
Good starting point for sizing


Thats around BAE Chalet area at RAF Fairford for  RIAT 2018 weekend before Farnborough not Cosford. Recognise Fairford's control tower in the background and the building next to it. Ive been attending the show for the last 21 years..

cheers
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 11:35:30 am by RavenOne »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2018, 01:44:28 pm »
RavenOne, bunch of thanks for clarification.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2018, 02:01:54 pm »
I think the confusion arose because Cosford personnel erected it, moved it and possibly guarded it at Fairford

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2018, 03:25:15 pm »
I think the confusion arose because Cosford personnel erected it, moved it and possibly guarded it at Fairford

Huh ? They’re RAF Personnel how can you tell what unit or basing ? They be RAFP - Provost or RAF Regiment so can be from any unit in the UK. They be augmented with help from MoD police
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2018, 03:43:01 pm »
how can you tell what unit or basing ?
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #195 on: August 25, 2018, 04:17:44 pm »
I think the confusion arose because Cosford personnel erected it, moved it and possibly guarded it at Fairford

Huh ? They’re RAF Personnel how can you tell what unit or basing ? They be RAFP - Provost or RAF Regiment so can be from any unit in the UK. They be augmented with help from MoD police
Cheers

I think that they wore passes/name badges that had Cosford on them, and some of them said they were from Cosford.

Thus the more literate could tell where they were from....

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #196 on: September 02, 2018, 07:26:52 pm »
Any ideas of Tempest inlet aerodynamics? It seems to be a mix of DSI and something else as there's some angled horizontal slat under the intake
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #197 on: September 02, 2018, 11:42:07 pm »
To me, from above it appears that the swept-forward section meets the chine and this is mirrored at the bottom, but the nose fuselage area under the chine is concave is cross-section, meaning that the inlet is wider immediately under and at the bottom. The lower inlet lip gains its width by having a W-shaped plan when you look at them as a pair. I think that this view shows it - notice the shadow under the chine. The ramp or bump within the inlet seems similar to that in the F-35 and the area shielded by the red panel is actually considerable smaller that the inlet area and is at an angle that further reduces its apparent size (your third image shows how it is at an angle).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 11:55:50 pm by Rhinocrates »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #198 on: September 03, 2018, 08:18:19 am »
Article from the Financial Times:

https://www.ft.com/content/5d3bff26-ac55-11e8-94bd-cba20d67390c

There is a pay wall, but by going via the FT's tweet about it @FinancialTimes I could get access.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #200 on: September 03, 2018, 02:13:24 pm »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #201 on: September 04, 2018, 12:04:44 am »
Article from the Financial Times:

https://www.ft.com/content/5d3bff26-ac55-11e8-94bd-cba20d67390c

There is a pay wall, but by going via the FT's tweet about it @FinancialTimes I could get access.

https://twitter.com/FT/status/1036449303148027904
And here's a link to the actual tweet, if you don't like sifting through 100 tweets to find the right one.
www.youtube.com/c/binkovsbattlegrounds - military analysis videos

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #202 on: September 04, 2018, 12:40:43 am »
Thanks totoro. I lost the tweet and could not find it again (there are several others), not helped by the Financial Times having two Twitter accounts!

The HoC paper makes the point that Tempest is not the aircraft name. Perhaps mods can change the thread name to reflect this:"...fighter technology programme"?
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #203 on: September 04, 2018, 01:21:11 am »
Williamson several times call it Tempest in his speech, Williamson and Bebb call it Tempest in numerous interviews, Team Taranis was in charge of Taranis, more - if it was not original intention to call a final FCAS system manned component a Tempest, now that name is stick to it forever in mass media and public opinion.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 03:08:28 am by flateric »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #204 on: September 04, 2018, 01:44:32 am »
There are at least one general election before the 2025 final investment decision, with another two until the fighter enters service in 2035.
The average Chancellor of the Exchequer last about 8-10 years in post and Secretary of State for Defence serves about 3 years, so by 2025 its likely both posts will be filled by new people. So between now and 2035 that's two chancellors and five Secretaries of State and possibly two changes of government before the IOC date and probably at least three defence reviews. The political dimensions to success are slim unless the project can be tied into a multinational effort.

Add to this, FCAS has been running since 2011 and there's been nothing to show for it, except now the UCAV aspect has moved from being the prime aspect to an integral, but secondary, part. Has the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative (FCAS TI) replaced the original FCAS or still part of the wider concept?
These briefing reports still seem to show industry is the driving force rather than the MOD.

Its worrying that the government doesn't seem to know what the status of the Anglo-French FCAS programme is. Although both nations wanted to develop an UCAV strike platform, both have now decided to put their efforts towards manned fighters. So there is still ground for cooperation on the same basis and scope to change the demonstrator programme to a manned platform. The harsh reality is that Brexit whether we like it or not has rather overshadowed the Lancaster House agreements made by the Cameron-Hollande governments.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 05:07:24 am by Hood »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #205 on: September 04, 2018, 02:09:01 am »
FCAS acronym AFAIR first has appeared in ETAP documents back in 2001. Then FCAS would be EU SoS in post-2020 world.
But already in 2009 Dassault's Trappier described FCAS/SCAF as national program to replace Rafale after 2030 - and I doubt that he was talking of UK-FR FCAS then.
Now everyone has its own FCAS...from UK to Sweden.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:12:40 am by flateric »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #206 on: September 04, 2018, 02:40:38 am »
Yes I have to say that the name Tempest was clearly chosen to be evocative of a fighter, and whether or not it refers solely to an aircraft, the programme we have at the moment is called Tempest.


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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #207 on: September 04, 2018, 03:51:49 am »
Actually the programme is FCAS-TI. The team running it is called Team Tempest. As yet there is no aircraft, only an aspiration for one.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #208 on: September 04, 2018, 04:22:12 am »
The Combat Air Strategy is pretty clear what is going on. Team Tempest is a trial of a new way of doing things that is hoped to give the UK a lead in whatever collaborative aircraft/system results. If it does not work other ways will be tried:

26. Changing behaviours in industry and
Government is vital to achieving these
objectives. These include new, collaborative
ways of working which will align incentives,
minimise transactional costs and ensure all
sides are held to account for performance.
The delivery of the Future Combat Air System
Technology Initiative is being managed
through a pilot project called ‘Team Tempest’.
This innovative Government-Industry
partnership is being used as a catalyst and
test bed for these changes.

27. The performance of Team Tempest and
wider industry is key to demonstrating that
Government and industry can achieve the
necessary capability and behavioural change.
Our assessment of this performance will be
fundamental to programme decisions in 2020.
Success will prove that the UK is in a strong
position to lead in delivering affordable next
generation capability. Alternative options and
greater flexibility in our national requirements
will have to be considered if performance does
not meet expectations.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/725600/CombatAirStrategy_Lowres.pdf
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #209 on: September 04, 2018, 12:37:38 pm »
I stand corrected.

At some point we have to admit that this programme is about developing an aircraft and associated systems. I understand that the official title for something is FCAS related, but Tempest is being used as shorthand for the effort.

Whilst Tempest is not and may never be lurking in a hanger, the whole thing is about putting a name to an effort that distinguishes it from everybody else's FCAS.

The title of the thread is still relevant.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 04:24:26 am by mrmalaya »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #210 on: September 04, 2018, 01:14:34 pm »
I wonder how much Eurofighter R&D figure was?
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #211 on: September 05, 2018, 03:50:26 am »
Terrific artwork by both Jemiba & PaulM. Thank you.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #212 on: September 05, 2018, 05:14:25 am »
That's a good question Flateric. Having four funding partners seems to have widened the accounts and I've never seen a reliable single estimate for the whole programme. I suppose the work on ACA and EAP should be included as well.

The best figures, patchy at best, I could find on R&D and production costs is; the UK has spent £22.9 billion already and perhaps as much as £37 billion by completion. Germany had spent €21.3 billion by 2004 (around €120 million unit cost, lately reduced to €90 mil), the Spanish have paid €11.7 billion (roughly resulting in €160 million per airframe).
So the £2 billion for FCAS-TI and the £1.54 billion committed to the full scale Anglo-French demonstrator programme seems fairly small scale by comparison.


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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #213 on: September 05, 2018, 05:33:01 am »
It will be interesting to see if they do actually make anything of the cost saving/productivity increase techniques that they are talking about, or if it is just so much marketing hot air.

As was pointed out before, this isn't the first time that a new programme has been given life with promises of cost-saving business miracles attached.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #214 on: September 05, 2018, 07:48:44 am »
Quote
given life with promises of cost-saving business miracles attached

Quite.

The issue here is not the F-35 that has resulted*, but the design and cost thinking that made it seem possible that 'this time it will be different'.

Team Tempest need to avoid that. The new air frame/engine/lasers model at Farnborough does not fill me with hope of this, but some of the thinking around it does.

I am looking forward to hearing more about LANCA.

* So no anti-F-35 thread hijacking please!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 07:53:47 am by Harrier »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #216 on: September 06, 2018, 03:32:18 am »
Which says that Tempest will be at the forefront of things for some time to come (rather than being a "flash in the pan" as some commentators have suggested).

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #217 on: September 06, 2018, 07:15:47 am »

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldhansrd/text/131216w0001.htm

Armed Forces: Aircraft
Questions
Asked by Lord West of Spithead

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the total cost of the Typhoon project up to the end of 2012.[HL3805]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): The total expenditure on the Typhoon project to 31 March 2012, as published in the Major Projects Report (MPR) 2012, was £19.050 billion. This includes Typhoon Assessment, Demonstration, Manufacture and Support phase expenditure.

Asked by Lord West of Spithead

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Typhoon airframes the United Kingdom had in its inventory on 31 December 2012.[HL3806]


Lord Astor of Hever: As at 31 December 2012 the Ministry of Defence had taken delivery of 108 Typhoon aircraft.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #218 on: September 06, 2018, 07:21:39 am »
I wonder how much Eurofighter R&D figure was?

Management of the Typhoon Project at https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/1011755.pdf says

" Development costs are currently estimated at £6.7 billion (107 per cent higher than the £3.2 billion originally approved) and production costs estimated at £13.5 billion (which is within the original approval level of £13.5 billion made in 1996). "

The report was published in March 2011.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #219 on: September 06, 2018, 07:36:21 am »
Many thanks indeed. And proposed FCAS R&D figure I've seen is £10 bln. (where's my inflation calculator?)
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #220 on: September 06, 2018, 07:55:53 am »
These are UK-only Typhoon costs. Each nations' spending may be proportionate to their work-share, although on Tornado it proved impossible to work them out and the UK paid much more in some areas, e.g. on the engine.

Typhoon also suffered major increases due to delay and re-scoping of the project, which need to be stripped out before comparing to any notional FCAS.

Different accounting practices between countries, exchange rates etc. make real costs almost impossible to work out. At least the JSF uses a much clearer US system.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #221 on: September 07, 2018, 02:21:53 am »
Typhoon development costs were estimated at Euros 18 billion ($20.3 billion). Source: The Industrial and Economic Benefits of Eurofighter Typhoon: Final Report, Prof. Keith Hartley, Centre for Defence Economics, University of York, 2006.

Given most of the costs were 2004 figures in the report, the relevant currency conversion GBP to Euros was 1.47, the total cost was roughly £12.2bn, so the UK paid 55.8% of the R&D cost (£6.7bn).


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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #222 on: September 07, 2018, 03:23:52 am »
Thank you!
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #223 on: September 07, 2018, 12:52:19 pm »
Anyone around Kleine Brogel AFB for a small walkaround?

https://twitter.com/ModelingDutchmn/status/1038008878687027201?s=19
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #224 on: September 07, 2018, 01:01:00 pm »
As nobody took over during my holidays, I tried to incorporate some of the clues given by Jackonicko:

- The canopy is narrower

- The landing gear of the Tornado was used as pattern (drawing from http://greenairdesigns.com/ejcgallery/displayimage.php?album=57&pid=1744,   
  the front wheel actually is a bit bigger, thanks for the clue !
  With regards to the landing gear, it is noticeable, I think, that for the Tornado, both, main and
  nose landing gear retracts forward, whereas here, it could only retract backwards, juding the position
  of the wheel well doors (actually more pointed). And the main gear legs ? Somehow sideways ? The wheel
  well doors really are too small, but comparison with (really good !) photos brought no other result.
 
-  Using the top view here https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30547.msg333939.html#msg333939,
   the inlets are a bit wider now, the tail fins remained in size and position, because of the same drawing and
   the video of the "Roll out" (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30547.msg335141.html#msg335141
   which gave a very good side view.

- Tried to change the underside of the inlets, unsure about the result.

- The tail cone is a bit slimmer and more pointed now, you're right.

- About those six panels, I wasn't sure at first, too, but got an excellent picture ( thanks Flateric !), see below.
  But ... that's a mock-up, and details like the landing gear, wheel well doors and others, to my opinion show quite
  clearly, that this shouldn't be taken too literally. So, no need to discuss panel lines, I think !   ;)

- Let's see, maybe we actually get a walk-around ! Attached is the svg-file, too, so there's no need to start from scratch.
 
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #225 on: September 07, 2018, 01:18:45 pm »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #226 on: September 07, 2018, 08:22:48 pm »
Belgian tour
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #227 on: September 07, 2018, 11:53:25 pm »
Jens - look at the bottom view at the inlet area... 

I'm afraid, I need help here .   :-[
My main error was, that the edges in the vertical plane shouldn't be shown just parallel to the
flight path. A clue, please, if I'm approaching the solution. Or soemone taking a photo directly
from below of that thing !
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #229 on: September 10, 2018, 10:09:38 am »
That's a good question Flateric. Having four funding partners seems to have widened the accounts and I've never seen a reliable single estimate for the whole programme. I suppose the work on ACA and EAP should be included as well.

The best figures, patchy at best, I could find on R&D and production costs is; the UK has spent £22.9 billion already and perhaps as much as £37 billion by completion

The R&D and production costs for the UK bit of the Eurofighter program, including 160 airframes, the "Typhoon Future Capability Programme" (AKA "austere capability" ATG program) and project Centurion was 18189 million pounds according to the National Audit Office "Major Projects Report 2015" (since then the NAO has not publicly released the project summary sheets that described in detail the costs related to individual programs).
The £22.9 billion were estimates for the R&D and production of 232 airframes and the 37 billion pounds number was released in the NAO 2011 "Management of the Typhoon Project" document and included every penny spent with the Phoon fleet "by the time the aircraft leaves service".

Cheers

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #230 on: September 10, 2018, 11:24:52 am »
Thank you!
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #231 on: September 10, 2018, 12:41:19 pm »
Jens - look at the bottom view at the inlet area... 

I'm afraid, I need help here .   :-[
My main error was, that the edges in the vertical plane shouldn't be shown just parallel to the
flight path. A clue, please, if I'm approaching the solution. Or soemone taking a photo directly
from below of that thing !

My guess is that it's because there is a change in the fuselage section bottom half at the intakes level. There is some added volume that makes like a bump. it's not visible from a profile view cause the intake outer lips mask it, but can be seen on the pictures posted by Flateric here :
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,30547.msg335560.html#msg335560

Here is my try at these pesky intakes, modified on your drawing.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #232 on: September 11, 2018, 05:00:39 pm »
some more images from Kleine-Brogel, Belgium, 8-9 September found online
...'excuse me mister, is that plane for real'...!!!

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #233 on: September 11, 2018, 10:09:09 pm »
Here is my try at these pesky intakes, modified on your drawing.

Many thanks ! Yes, that looks much more plausible. I've started a point-by-point attempt, but some points
just have to be guessed. And though I still didn't come to a conclusion, what I have so far, is much nearer to
your drawing, than to mine ... well, must admit, that on Sunday evening I threw in the towel. Maybe, I'll start
another attempt with cardboard, scissors and tape.   :-\
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #234 on: September 12, 2018, 01:22:44 am »
Is there at least one photo ( not CGI) with top view so I could see wings? So far I am semi convinced:)
If you are hotter than me, I must be cooler than you:)

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #235 on: September 12, 2018, 01:50:25 am »
Only complete top views I know are CGIs (already posted here), moreover at an angle, but manageable enough to make a estimated scale-plan i think.
Plus the small infographics from BAe presentation, hoping they show an accurate plan view.
Pictures of the mockup showing the top of the wings are all stretch cause taken inside at wide angle, difficult to get an accurate shape from these
Unless someone use a drone to make picts from above the mockup when its outside, difficult to have a good overall plan view of the mockup.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #236 on: September 12, 2018, 04:25:59 am »
1). I highly doubt that renderings closely match mockup (and even each other)
2). Top view from infographics is obviously a crap.

Interesting how low interest (judging from amount of public photos) Tempest mockup has attracted at BAFD'18 (unfortunately)...
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...'excuse me mister, is that plane for real'...!!!

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #238 on: September 17, 2018, 12:04:02 pm »
would like to believe Tempest has that much internal payload. also has vertical surfaces  :(

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #239 on: September 30, 2018, 12:31:07 am »
another appearance of Tempest mockup went almost unnoticed by community at Duxford Battle of Britain Airshow, IWM Duxford, 22-23 Septemper, 2018
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #240 on: September 30, 2018, 05:17:09 am »
No propeller, so no interest I assume  ;D

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #241 on: September 30, 2018, 05:47:12 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #242 on: September 30, 2018, 06:11:05 am »
Is there any response of UK government more than proposal from BAE?

Any good proposal cannot leave paper without political support...

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #243 on: September 30, 2018, 06:22:02 am »
No propeller, so no interest I assume  ;D

It was parked outside but heavy rain most of the weekend so many people stayed inside the museum. I saw quite a few soggy pictures of it, but nothing new coming out.

@litzj

Yes, at Farnborough the MOD signed a contract for £2bn study with BAES, RR, Leonardo MW and MBDA.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #244 on: October 01, 2018, 03:28:37 am »
definitely a video screenshot but where's original video?
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #246 on: October 01, 2018, 06:20:09 am »
http://aviationweek.com/defense/dragonfire-laser-could-inform-next-british-fighter-weapon?elqTrackId=559f96f354d94e2cb04a665b596a4e04&elq=7ab5903004934b05af047c9b5df67450&elqaid=16720&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=14285&utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=16720&utm_medium=email&elq2=7ab5903004934b05af047c9b5df67450

Quote
During 2019, British industry will demonstrate a directed-energy laser weapon for potential use on land and sea.

But the team behind the UK’s Dragonfire industry consortium developing the weapon is also beginning to consider how such a weapon could be mounted onto a future combat aircraft.

Dragonfire will demonstrate a fiber laser with a 50 kW output in 2019 tests.

Laser will put a focused beam the size of an English penny 5 km away.

The UK’s vision for a future combat aircraft—like that shown in mockup form at the Farnborough Air Show in July (AW&ST July 23-Aug. 19, p. 38) —envisions the integration of such a weapon, not only for self-defense, but also in target identification and visual range combat.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #247 on: October 23, 2018, 04:05:32 pm »
 https://mainichi.jp/articles/20181004/k00/00m/010/192000c.amp?

https://r.nikkei.com/article/DGXMZO36698460Z11C18A0EA3000

Short version: Japan has no further interest in Tempest due to US sensetivities. F-22 restart or 'all Japan dream team'. Former is cheaper.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #248 on: October 23, 2018, 04:15:32 pm »
Erm... That's not what I read?

Quote
The Ministry of Defense has strengthened its policy to develop a successor to the Air Self Defense Force's F2 fighter aircraft. Government officials revealed. Three U.S. and U.S. companies had suggested the introduction of capacity enhancement type of existing models, but judged that they do not meet the requirements of Japan side in view of cost and performance. We will include development policy in the next medium-term defense buildup plan to be formulated at the end of the year, with the aim of joint development with foreign countries, we will also advance Japan's own technology development with engines and others. [Akiyama Shinichi]


 The air force currently owns 92 F2, but it has exceeded its useful life since the 2030s. Because development of fighter aircraft takes more than ten years, the Ministry of Defense has been considering three proposals: (1) international joint development (2) domestic development (3) purchasing capacity enhancement of existing machines. We thought that defines the implementation strategy of the successor to the prospect of the end of the year now.

 In FY2006 - FY 2006, we asked domestic and overseas companies, the U.S. and U.S. governments to provide information on new development of fighter aircraft and renovation of existing machines three times in total. Until this July, Lockheed Martin Company, F 22, Boeing Company F 15, British BAE Corp. had made refurbishment improvements based on existing machines of Eurofighter Typhoon. However, the renovation of the F22 with state-of-the-art stealth performance is costly and it says "There was no clear explanation about the prospect of the US government's export ban measures to be lifted" (executive in the Ministry of Defense). For the other two plans, the performance of the aircraft will not reach the level required by the Japanese side, and the Ministry of Defense will not wait to adopt the capacity enhancement type of existing machines.

 However, it is difficult to newly develop a fighter aircraft that costs a budget of several trillion yen. In defense industrial groups and the LDP who want to maintain the domestic production and maintenance infrastructure, there is a strong voice to propose domestic development, but in that case the total development costs will be borne by Japan. Japanese companies lacking development experience of fighter aircraft are living anxiety in terms of technology.

 The Ministry of Defense conducted a technical research on next-generation fighter aircraft such as engines and electronic systems over about 190 billion yen in FY09 - 2006, but at the stage where the developed domestically produced engine is still confirming basic performance, flight experiment It is not standing by me.

 For this reason, the government is seeking to share development costs with international co-development with Britain and the German Federation and France, which are considering developing fighter aircraft. However, there is a risk that it will be difficult for co-development to adjust the timing, required performance, share of development field, etc. Meanwhile, the allies' United States has just begun full-scale operation of state-of-the-art F35 stealth fighter aircraft, and the development plan for the next model is not materialized. At the end of the year, the Ministry of Defense has decided to set up a new framework of new development, postponing the final decision on joint development or domestic development, and there are plans to advance technology development and negotiations with foreign countries.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #249 on: October 23, 2018, 11:15:25 pm »
Got it from Twitter. Phone does not translate pages.

Also a pain to link this site to Twitter. Here is my attempt!


 <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The hybrid F-22/F-35 offer for Japan is reportedly dead. The Mainichi Shimbun reports the Japanese have decided to go with an all-new design. I probably owe a @AaronMehta a pumpkin spice latte, which I plan to remit next August. https://t.co/e1g2WLksiA</p>&mdash; Steve Trimble (@TheDEWLine) October 5, 2018 <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">According to latest Nikkei update, the F-22 proposal is not exactly dead, but is being held up to give &quot;All-Japan&quot; coalition a more time to prepare its proposal so that two could be compared in 2019. Working with UK on Tempest unlikely due to Japanese fear https://t.co/XA25uYBySF</p>&mdash; Faceless Man (@FacelessManTwit) October 23, 2018 <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


EDIT: Having got back on a laptop I agree with Red Admiral's can kicking comment, although the Nikkei article is mostly behind a pay wall and that is the one cited on Twitter as mentioning Tempest.

Although Google Translate can make things a little confusing, its translation of "Japanese companies lacking development experience of fighter aircraft are living anxiety in terms of technology" is about the most honest thing that anyone can say about all these fighter projects!
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Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #250 on: October 24, 2018, 12:20:45 am »
There's been much leaking from various people in Japan with varying agendas so the latest position changes week by week. But the underlying truth is that no decision has been made. If anything this latest just seems to be kicking in the can down the road another year.

One of the recent stories was that F-22 still under export controls, with no assurances they'd change - hence not an option. But there's some serious geopolitics in this decision.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #251 on: October 24, 2018, 12:55:58 am »
Yes, it reads to me that the only option that's off the table is any warmed-over 4th gen fighter. And that seems a reasonable assumption given the 2030s timeframe.
Japan are understandably hesitant about a multi-national development programme, that is something fairly alien to them. Most of their military aircraft programmes have been solo efforts or licence-produced US types.
It feels to me that the US option is still the most favoured but obviously it depends on political factors relating to exporting technologies, which to me seems nonsensical given the wide participation in the F-35 programme.
Tempest is still a possibility but perhaps Japan is right to be sceptical. We still don't really know what the end result of Tempest will be, an interceptor first and foremost or a swing-role type. I think Japan is probably not interested in the air-ground capabilities that might be on offer.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #252 on: October 24, 2018, 02:39:07 am »
With Russia, North Korea and China next door I would imagine Japanese planning has a different focus from the UK. Even post-Brexit I don't think France, Belgium and Norway are quite such an immediate threat. A few Bears down the North Sea each month are not the same as potential shoals of fighters etc. coming straight at you.

The need to keep the US on side makes sense as they are the ultimate defender of Japan. Perhaps it would be via US links that the UK may stand a better chance of a joint programme.

Global partnerships and exports are fraught affairs. BAE's links to Saudi Arabia and Turkey must be concentrating a few minds at the moment. I don't think Japan would be keen on such markets in any case, and other possible partners (Sweden, Germany) have different rules over such things.

Getting requirements, budgets, work share, ethics etc. lined up was difficult enough with close (in every sense) allies in the 1980s around EFA. Establishing a new alliance, and sustaining it, would make things more interesting.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #253 on: October 24, 2018, 08:14:40 am »
The rest of that twitter post ran something along the lines of "Tempest is not being considered because the Japanese are worried about Trumps's reaction to them ditching the US".

Not exactly technical.


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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #254 on: October 24, 2018, 08:29:52 am »
The rest of that twitter post ran something along the lines of "Tempest is not being considered because the Japanese are worried about Trumps's reaction to them ditching the US".

Not exactly technical.
Tempest and Japan's next-gen fighter are gonna be much longer programs than any single (legal) Administration. Seems like they might be hedging while they wait to see what the longer-term trend in US politics is.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #255 on: October 24, 2018, 01:28:38 pm »
I agree. It doesn't sound plausible, but neither does a revamp of the F22.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #256 on: October 24, 2018, 11:45:58 pm »
What about part in FGFA? ^_^

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #258 on: October 26, 2018, 05:24:51 am »
3 squadrons of each?

https://www.janes.com/article/84058/raf-looks-to-typhoon-lightning-tempest-force-in-2030s

Very little information in the article and certainly no mention of squadron numbers.

Doubt anyone surprised by the fact that that the Typhoon’s service will overlap with what ever replaces it.

The interesting point is if it will be the tailend of the F-35 order or that ultimate Typhoon replacement that will replace the Tranche 1 Typhoons and if that replacement (the Tempest or an international, most likely pan-European project that emerges from the Tempest and parallel work in other European countries) can really be realized (technically, politically and financially) in time for the Tranch 1 replacement while likely being concurrent with the tailend of the F-35 procurement.

May be the case that the aim right now is for the Tranche 1’s knowing that if the Typhoon replacement is delayed (which is highly likely) it should still hopefully be in place to replace the Tranch 2’s & 3’s (with F-35 order to fill the gap).

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #259 on: October 26, 2018, 06:11:54 am »
When exactly is the Typhoon's out of service date? This has been annoying me for some time.  :-\

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #260 on: October 26, 2018, 01:35:08 pm »
RAF Typhoon OSD currently planned at 2040. Tranche 1 OSD set at around 2030.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #261 on: October 27, 2018, 03:39:35 am »
How come Typhoon gets to retire before I do?  :'( Life just ain't fair.
On the bright side, I might get to see Tempest in service before I'm too old and addled to remember what an aircraft is.

I guess the OSD for the later Tranches might change depending on availability of F-35s and new Tempests. Much will depend on the future structure of the RAF.
The RAF in 22 years time might look as different from today as it looked in 1996 from today in terms of size and manpower.  If the number of squadrons goes up or down then the demand for airframes will change. If it continues to shrink then a two-type frontline fast jet mix may well look totally uneconomic.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #262 on: October 27, 2018, 04:44:03 am »
I doubt that Typhoon OSD will move much. There will have been very careful calculations about fleet size, flying hours and likely attrition, as well as lifetime buys of particular spares that may otherwise be subject to DMR or obsolescence, and this will effectively place a fairly hard limit on how long the aircraft can last. It's not just about fatigue life consumption. A few years before OSD (perhaps as much as a decade) the RAF will start making decisions on support contracts that will then make the OSD absolutely 'set in stone'.

That's why the Jaguar left service when it did. The fleet still had unused fatigue life, but the support contracts for engines, ejection seats and a host of other systems all ran out at a particular point, and extending them would have been impossible in some cases, and prohibitively expensive in others.

Extending the Nimrod R1 in service by a few months was a really big deal - and it was not possible to stretch that aircraft's life sufficiently to bridge the gap between its planned retirement and the in service date of the Rivet Joint, despite a pressing operational need.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #263 on: October 27, 2018, 11:39:08 am »
I doubt that Typhoon OSD will move much. There will have been very careful calculations about fleet size, flying hours and likely attrition, as well as lifetime buys of particular spares that may otherwise be subject to DMR or obsolescence, and this will effectively place a fairly hard limit on how long the aircraft can last. It's not just about fatigue life consumption. A few years before OSD (perhaps as much as a decade) the RAF will start making decisions on support contracts that will then make the OSD absolutely 'set in stone'.

That's why the Jaguar left service when it did. The fleet still had unused fatigue life, but the support contracts for engines, ejection seats and a host of other systems all ran out at a particular point, and extending them would have been impossible in some cases, and prohibitively expensive in others.

Extending the Nimrod R1 in service by a few months was a really big deal - and it was not possible to stretch that aircraft's life sufficiently to bridge the gap between its planned retirement and the in service date of the Rivet Joint, despite a pressing operational need.

Not sure I quite agree with you; there is likely to be substantial “give” for extension for the Tier 2 & 3 Typhoons (obviously at a cost).

The Jaguar left service when it did as prumarily as a budget measure (ahead of its planned Typhoon replacement) while the Nimrod had become a dangerous museum piece prior to its final withdrawal (the airframe a victim of being kept going too long with some bad planning, engineering and decisions made).

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #264 on: October 28, 2018, 04:50:14 am »
How interesting. This does support the idea that the UK intends this aircraft to go into service (and appears to be calling it Tempest).

If they are planning for it, then surely they are confident of it progressing beyond the mock-up stage (contrary to many an opinion on the web).

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #265 on: October 28, 2018, 04:33:54 pm »
How interesting. This does support the idea that the UK intends this aircraft to go into service (and appears to be calling it Tempest).

If they are planning for it, then surely they are confident of it progressing beyond the mock-up stage (contrary to many an opinion on the web).

The UK is clearly interested in their efforts being seen as “credible” re: potential future partners.
However as a project it is being born at an inauspicious and somewhat “unreal” time (unclear Brexit deal of yet unknown “hardness”, a weak minority government, etc.).
And that’s before considering if the UK really has the capacity and will (financial, technical and political) to really go it alone when all remotely recent experience suggests they don’t.
The Tempest may prove to only be an important way-point to something similar but different.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 04:37:15 pm by kaiserd »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #266 on: October 28, 2018, 06:33:41 pm »
Tempest is the latest folder of a cross-administration continuously funded effort. It's not something dropped one day on a stand, it's the real deal as we know any major program today: read money, real R&D, real sustained technology, real demonstrators being test flown... and now we are introduced to the beginning of an architecture of systems. I know that at the age of fancy GCI this could look as an old fashioned classicism but still, those are flesh and spinal for any serious project.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 02:27:16 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #267 on: October 29, 2018, 09:17:42 am »
This RUSI discussion is interesting:



Senior figures say a number of things that clarify the situation. Tempest is a team, not the concept plane.

Most of the technology talked about is of open systems rather than fighter planes - indeed it is said it is wrong to even use that term.

If the outcome is UK sovereign software that does the job then the aeroplane it is in hardly seems to matter to several of the speakers.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #268 on: October 29, 2018, 02:33:02 pm »
This RUSI discussion is interesting:



Senior figures say a number of things that clarify the situation. Tempest is a team, not the concept plane.

Most of the technology talked about is of open systems rather than fighter planes - indeed it is said it is wrong to even use that term.

If the outcome is UK sovereign software that does the job then the aeroplane it is in hardly seems to matter to several of the speakers.

Agreed; at this stage probably best seen a technology development project to keep up to date (and remain a potentially “worthy” project partner) rather than a “traditional” aircraft project.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #269 on: October 29, 2018, 02:42:25 pm »
Agreed; at this stage probably best seen a technology development project to keep up to date (and remain a potentially “worthy” project partner) rather than a “traditional” aircraft project.

Yes, but as Richard Berthon pointed out, the decision to do "something" in the future has been made, and a proper acquisition programme is being launched this year.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #270 on: October 30, 2018, 12:17:40 am »
OK, never in the history of British fighter design was so much hidden from so many, by so few.

Well maybe not. Are you saying that Tempest is a team developing some software to put in an aircraft? What software and what does that mean?

There seems to be a clear divide here between the more academically minded who are fighting shy of attaching the name to an aircraft, and those who are using "Tempest" as shorthand for the development of the RAF Typhoon replacement.

Perhaps the confusion is deliberate.

From the talk, they are still clearly referencing an airframe being built and whilst they aren't calling it a fighter (that is too prescriptive), it is being worked on by Team Tempest in the same way as Team Typhoon are delivering future Typhoon capabilities. I think the aircraft is being called Tempest and the addition of "Team" just helps illustrate it is a wider effort designed at providing much better value than if one prime contractor was in charge.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 02:04:30 am by mrmalaya »

Offline Jackonicko

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #271 on: October 31, 2018, 04:57:04 pm »
Team Tempest exists.

An aspiration to build an airframe also exists, but no more than that.

That airframe is unlikely to look much like the model being trucked around various air shows, and that many people are getting excited about and calling 'Tempest'.

I'm not sure that 'Team Typhoon' exists in anything like the way that you suggest.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #272 on: November 01, 2018, 01:46:09 am »
Agree that Tempest in its model form is not representative of any aircraft that will fly. As to Team Typhoon, I got that from the RAF AM Atha, who opened that RUSI talk (around 12 mins in).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 02:01:01 am by mrmalaya »

Offline red admiral

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #273 on: November 03, 2018, 05:02:41 am »
https://rusi.org/publication/occasional-papers/next-generation-combat-aircraft-threat-outlook-and-potential-solutions

A bit of background context from RUSI. Contains a few errors but generally a good overview of future combat air programmes.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #274 on: November 03, 2018, 10:09:38 am »
Based on all the talk of increased combat mass from the RUSI talk and paper, "loyal wingman" based on lessons learnt from Taranis for the UK then?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 10:11:23 am by mrmalaya »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #275 on: November 03, 2018, 01:03:02 pm »
from rusi.org linked above
Quote
Unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) offer a number of key advantages in high-intensity conflict scenarios, including expendability, comparative simplicity of manufacture, and combat endurance. Since UCAVs do not have to be flown regularly and in large numbers to maintain an aircrew cadre, they can be produced in relatively small numbers and regularly upgraded and iteratively improved as the threat picture changes over time, while still representing a potent combat asset.[...]
A mix of next generation manned combat aircraft limited to a modest level of technological ambition beyond the capabilities offered by current fifth-generation fighters like the F-35 and F-22, coupled with a stable of regularly evolving UCAVs in low-rate production, could offer both a way to rapidly expand NATO airpower if a crisis appeared imminent, and in a worst-case scenario at least offer a latent capability to replace losses and draw the worst attrition away from scarce manned assets in a high-intensity conflict. [...]
More importantly, an UCAS offers operational readiness with peer aggressors at a lower budget. Drones doesn't need to be trained. Systems only require continuous upgrades and development while only their interactions with humans necessitate regular training and OP refining. You then can own a large fleet of UCAS and regularly use only a fraction of the fleet produced. This is a clear path for the 5th and beyond generation of warfighters. Then your budget can be recapitalized upon preventing armed conflict to degenerate in a large confrontation (OP readiness, deployment of assets...).

Instead of focusing on a 1980 2.0 scenario, Europeans that have for their intends to be taken seriously, should refocus on improving their logistics and in-theater deterrence. The real 6th generation manned EU airframe will be the platoon soldier.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 02:00:28 pm by TomcatViP »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #276 on: November 06, 2018, 11:54:11 am »
As a for illustrating the above, here is Kratos aggressively ramping-up their production facilities:

Kratos expands production to Oklahoma City on tactical drone sales growth
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 04:06:12 pm by TomcatViP »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #277 on: November 29, 2018, 02:36:19 am »
I have an article in the December 2018 RAeS Aerospace magazine:

'Thirty Years of Hurt?'

https://www.aerosociety.com/publications/aerospace-magazine-december-2018/

Basically it is asking if there is a future for UK combat air design.

I did not want a TSR.2 picture, but they seem mandatory!

It is an edited version of the '1985' paper here:

https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/about/cds/low-cost-by-design

It may go up on the RAeS Insight blog next week.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #278 on: December 03, 2018, 02:32:09 pm »
Italy and Netherlands join Team Tempest, pretendidamente:

Google Translate of http://www.defensa.gob.es/gabinete/notasPrensa/2018/12/DGC-181203-caza-europeo-ngws.html
------------------------------------------------
Spain urges its participation as a full partner in the future European hunting
12/03/2018Twitter
The Minister of Defense, Margarita Robles, has transferred by letter to her French and German counterparts, Florence Parly and Ursula von der Leyen, the Government's firm interest in being part of the future European fighter of the 21st century, better known as the Armed Forces System. New Generation (NGWS) that drive France and Germany.

In his missives, Robles requests that the Spanish incorporation be formalized, through the signing of a Letter of Intentions (LOI, in its English acronym) or a tripartite Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). The cost of being a member of the program is estimated at around 25 million euros for the next two years.

The NGWS aims to be the fifth-generation fighter aircraft that will replace European fighters in service, such as the Eurofighter and the Rafale, starting in 2040.

Currently there are two projects that aspire to be the eurocaza of the 21st century: the Franco-German program and the British Tempest, to which the Netherlands and Italy have joined. From the Ministry of Defense is convinced that both programs will eventually merge, given the huge investment that requires its development.

Despite this, and with the interest to participate in the project from its initial phase, Spain has decided to join the project of Paris and Berlin.

The NGWS is conceived as a fighter aircraft with a pilot developed to operate in conjunction with a swarm of drones that will make weapons platforms and advanced sensors. In turn, the NGWS will be integrated into a panoply (the Future Air Combat System or FCAS) of which the mid-altitude and long-range drone (MALE, in which Spain participates with 23%) are part, satellites or cruise missiles.

In the next few years, before 2025, the Air Force must replace the 20 US F-18 fighters deployed in the base of Gando (Canary Islands); and by 2030, the remaining 65.
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In a two horse race expect some 'jockey swapping' as things progress!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 02:41:11 pm by Harrier »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #279 on: December 03, 2018, 03:12:41 pm »
Re: the article above I am finding no other public reference to any Netherlands national involvement or interest in “Team Tempest”. As a participant in the F-35 programmer and with no Typhoons or Rafael’s to replace unlikely Netherlands will have any interest in any potential procurement until decades in the future.

Similarly while there is Italian industrial involvement (Leonardo) not yet any clear indication of any Italian national interest or involvement (particularly given its current government).

Hence any claims re: these countries (or Spain) in the article should be taken with a big pinch of salt.
But a forecast of all of these European programmes ending up as the one combined project does not appear far-fetched subject to Brexit being resolved in manner that doesn’t leave all bridges burnt (by the UK).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 03:27:12 pm by kaiserd »

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #280 on: December 03, 2018, 03:57:49 pm »
I think you mean all bridges being burned by the eu.......

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #281 on: December 04, 2018, 12:33:41 am »
Sorry, brexit discussion is far off topic for this forum.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #282 on: December 04, 2018, 05:28:48 am »
Sounds a little like journalistic flair.
Just because Leonardo is involved in Team Tempest, that doesn't indicate Italy will automatically join the Tempest club. It's making strides with the F-35 fleet, looks to be settling on that as their main combat aircraft and it has given them a manufacturing boost with the F-35 Final Assembly and Checkout Facility which will keep them in work for a long time.
The Netherlands is an odd choice, but they may be looking a longer-term options.

As for a future single European project, I have to admit scepticism. The Franco-German agreement has handed top shares and leadership to Dassault and Safran for the airframe and engine and time will tell if Thales will take a lead on some of the systems. The French industry has cornered a good slice of the industrial pie for themselves and can assert French requirements and objectives. Are they likely to relinquish  a slice of that to BAE Systems, Leonardo or SAAB or Rolls-Royce? Is Airbus going to be keen on losing a slice of its sub-contractor status when Enders stated goal has been to dominate the European military manufacturing segment? I suspect as FCAS/SCAF matures, more emphasis will fall on buying a complete integrated combat system. The UK won't even be part of Galileo, just one basic building block, and the RAF may well rely on US UCAVs for some time. How compatible will they be?
A lot of questions, and none of them have easy answers. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 05:31:13 am by Hood »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #283 on: December 04, 2018, 05:59:44 am »
Quote from: Hood
The UK won't even be part of Galileo, just one basic building block, and the RAF may well rely on US UCAVs for some time. How compatible will they be?
I am sure we will see a competing team on the EU (geo) UCAV market. We have so much dynamism on the peripheral EU nations and so much uncommitted talents among some of of the traditional airframer.

Boeing could have a prime interested to capitalize on the situation with its MQ-25 project and diversify this product into a dual role UCAS. It might even be a low cost move that could open great returns. Especially if they open a cooperation with some systems and airframe manufacturer in EU (geo). By offering an airframe already tuned for stealth this would offer a drastic cost reduction on the finalized products, still use a lot of the Stealth ressources of the partner nations and produces synchronicity for any future adaptation requested by the USN. Think F-18L.

On the geo-strategic terms, this would fix sensitive knowledge and reduces unwanted bridges with peer opponents (IMOHO one the the main reason why the Trump administration wants to see defense spending increases in Europe).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 06:05:37 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #284 on: December 04, 2018, 06:13:59 am »
Remember Team Tempest is not about developing the model shown at Farnborough, but looking at technologies that may apply to Typhoon and F-35 as well as a possible future air combat vehicle/platform/system/capability.....

On that basis Italy and the Netherlands might have an interest in it, although there is nothing except this article that says that. It is an interesting snippet, but not actual news unless confirmed.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #285 on: December 04, 2018, 06:32:33 am »
Seems to be hard truth for the Spanish MoD:

Quote
Currently there are two projects that aspire to be the eurocaza of the 21st century: the Franco-German program and the British Tempest, to which the Netherlands and Italy have joined. From the Ministry of Defense is convinced that both programs will eventually merge, given the huge investment that requires its development.

Despite this, and with the interest to participate in the project from its initial phase, Spain has decided to join the project of Paris and Berlin.

From KeyPub (original link from user Sintra here: http://www.defensa.gob.es/gabinete/notasPrensa/2018/12/DGC-181203-caza-europeo-ngws.html )

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #286 on: December 04, 2018, 06:43:15 am »
The Spanish decision is pukka gen.

As for the Netherlands:  don't forget that most of the Cloggies' industrial participation in F-35 is now British-owned, since GKN bought Fokker Technologies.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #288 on: January 10, 2019, 06:21:40 am »
Tempest updates:

In IOC of F-35 press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-sets-sights-on-next-century-of-british-air-power

IOC stated as being hoped for in 2035, although related graphic shows it may slide right (see attached, although it also seems to indicate Typhoon in service since 1980s!)

Also, statement on full range of FCAS TI projects (and much else too - only 40 Typhoons with E-Scan, Canada pinching shipyard workers for Type 26 etc.):

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/defence-committee/work-of-des/written/93913.html

"A nine-year funded programme of record exists for the FCAS TI, of which the Team Tempest project is a subset. This programme consists of three main elements; PYRAMID (an Open Mission Systems Initiative); National Projects; and International Projects. Team Tempest is a part of the National Projects element and is jointly funded by the MOD and industry. All other FCAS TI activities are currently solely funded by the MOD. The MOD is contributing c.£2 billion to the FCAS TI programme."

Note that it is not the case that £2 billion is being paid by MoD for a plane called Tempest.
 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 06:27:35 am by Harrier »
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #289 on: January 10, 2019, 07:53:23 am »
Another picture from today.

Emphasises just how low slung the model is.

For weapons loading presumably 'robots' is the answer!  :o
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #290 on: January 10, 2019, 10:01:36 am »
Another picture from today.

Emphasises just how low slung the model is.

For weapons loading presumably 'robots' is the answer!  :o

Really short robots.... something else for them to inevitably hold against us...

Offline TsrJoe

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #291 on: January 10, 2019, 05:16:09 pm »
...'excuse me mister, is that plane for real'...!!!

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Offline Trident

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #292 on: January 11, 2019, 11:33:06 am »
Tempest updates:

In IOC of F-35 press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-sets-sights-on-next-century-of-british-air-power

IOC stated as being hoped for in 2035, although related graphic shows it may slide right (see attached, although it also seems to indicate Typhoon in service since 1980s!)

Is it just me or is that Tempest silhouette in fact Replica?

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #293 on: January 11, 2019, 12:42:11 pm »
Seems to be. The whole graphic seems like an intern went unsupervised.

Not seen any document it came from, apart from a video on Twitter.
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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #294 on: January 11, 2019, 12:47:36 pm »
So per that time-line the “Tempest” (or at least what ever aircraft emerges from this investment and development effort) is intend to go into service approx 2040.
While it would be foolish too read to much into a press-release it does put some enthusiasts hopes/ expectations of a much shorter development schedule in context and does show we are in very early lets-see-what-happens stages rather than a hell-for-leather race to develop and fly a particular (UK only) airframe and systems.

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #295 on: January 11, 2019, 01:53:55 pm »
I think the graphic is just badly drawn. I don't think much should be read into it.

A shame as MoD info on this has been pretty sharp so far, although the BAE model has led to some confusion.
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Offline Jackonicko

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Re: Tempest - UK Future fighter programme
« Reply #296 on: Yesterday at 04:02:49 pm »
It amazes me that people read so much into the Tempest model.

It was based on that concept (of many competing concepts, several of which are still under active consideration) for the convenience of the model makers, and perhaps because that concept seemed the most promising at the time they had to design the mock up. By the time it was revealed, other concepts may have been judged more promising.

It was sized (including height off the ground) for transport and assembly requirements, and to fit within the constrained dimensions of marquees and exhibition spaces.

The eventual manned platform within FCAS is most unlikely to look anything like the Tempest model. And even if that concept does end up forming the basis of the eventual FCA it will not be exactly that size, or shape.