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Author Topic: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service  (Read 2233 times)

Offline KonTim

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What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« on: April 06, 2018, 11:46:29 am »
Let's say that YF-17 won the competition of USAF for a new light fighter and has entered service.Which would be its avionics?Its evolution pattern?In which countries would be exported to?Could anyone imagine?

Offline Kadija_Man

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2018, 10:19:20 pm »
I would suggest all those nations that bought the F/A-18 would be contenders for the F-17.  RAAF. RCAF, Switzerland, Finland.  You might see the F-16 challenged for the NATO airforces.   It would all depend on whether or not it would have a BVR Missile capability and an adequate radar.


Online Archibald

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2018, 11:14:35 pm »
Wow. Awesome picture, really. Where did you found that ?

I can see the Netherland buying that bird, and maybe belgium wouldfollow. With Spain and Finland and Switzerland, that's five European countries buying the F-17. It would be the smallest twin jet mach 2 class fighter in the world.
 In turn,this might influence early Typhoon story: by 1977 when the TKF-90 was being reviewed, the German government benchmark was the F-18L - they wanted the smallest, lightest and cheapest mach 2 class fighter. There, the even smaller F-17 would be considered. Maybe Germany would buy it to replace the Phantoms, strangling the Typhoon in infancy.
France is not possible unless Marcel Dassault in run over by a bus, although the Rafale is essential a next generation take at the F-17 - smallest airframe to cut cost to the bone, albeit it was not entirely successful on that matter  ;)
Mind you, a French  pilot went to Edwards in 1975 and flight tested the YF-17 prototype, and loved it. There are photos of a YF-17 with a tricolour tail and French roundels somewhere.

http://www.ffaa.net/projects/hornet/hornet_fr.htm

http://www.ffaa.net/projects/hornet/images/hornet-0008.jpg
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline Deltafan

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2018, 01:05:47 am »
France is not possible unless Marcel Dassault in run over by a bus, although the Rafale is essential a next generation take at the F-17 - smallest airframe to cut cost to the bone, albeit it was not entirely successful on that matter  ;)
Mind you, a French  pilot went to Edwards in 1975 and flight tested the YF-17 prototype, and loved it. There are photos of a YF-17 with a tricolour tail and French roundels somewhere.

http://www.ffaa.net/projects/hornet/images/hornet-0008.jpg
Thanks. I knew a "French Air Force" F-15 (tested around 1975 too before the ordering of the Mirage 2000), but I did not know this "French Navy" YF-17.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2018, 02:07:42 am »
What Ever Aircraft win in the LWF Program ( YF-16 or YF-17 )
Its needed by NATO to replace the aging and "problematic" F-104G series  and Other Aircraft

But there is little Catch to it
is Northrop willing to move there F-17 production to Europe ?
See General Dynamic made deals with Belgium, Netherlands not only sell them F-16, but to build them also there
(next to that is Belgium corruption, what Northrop has to face)

Let assume Northrop insist on production remain there Plant in USA
here you got realistic chance that Belgium and Netherlands goes for another Manufacture who offer to build at costumer,
Dassault-Breguet's proposed Mirage F1M-53 offers that feature...

Other Buyers
Do it characteristic the F-17 Cobra could buy by Air-force who not wanted the F-16.
one is Italy, another could be German Airforce, last one would have budget issue... 
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Offline Hood

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2018, 02:59:56 am »
I think it would have been just as successful within the NATO LWF partners as the F-16 was. The extra running costs of having two engines would have been offset by the fact that the major airforces still perferred two engines for increased safety. I am pretty confident the Luftwaffe would have gone with the F-17, they were very interested in the F-18L. The RAF was looking more for an attack type with the ability to mix it with MiGs over Germany. I'm not sure the F-17s sensors and weapons fit were quite suited for that, but if it had evolved a more F/A-18 level of swing-role then it might have been a compelling choice for Whitehall to save some cash to funnel into the Tornado GR and F programmes.

Online Archibald

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 07:09:29 am »
France is not possible unless Marcel Dassault in run over by a bus, although the Rafale is essential a next generation take at the F-17 - smallest airframe to cut cost to the bone, albeit it was not entirely successful on that matter  ;)
Mind you, a French  pilot went to Edwards in 1975 and flight tested the YF-17 prototype, and loved it. There are photos of a YF-17 with a tricolour tail and French roundels somewhere.

http://www.ffaa.net/projects/hornet/images/hornet-0008.jpg
Thanks. I knew a "French Air Force" F-15 (tested around 1975 too before the ordering of the Mirage 2000), but I did not know this "French Navy" YF-17.

The entire website is very good. A valuable source on the French aeronavale and its projects and cancelled aircrafts.
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline Michel Van

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 09:50:43 am »
now i found this on Forum about Northrop P-530 / P-600 / P-610 / YF-17 Design Evolution
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,448.msg273280.html#msg273280

in Short
Northrop Corp. had send delegation to Europe for Northrop 530 advanced tactical fighter project. (that became F-17 Cobra)
they talked with European aircraft manufacturers in Great Britain, Italy, Germany. Holland and Belgium.
Seems they wanted  to let other build F-17 Cobra in Europe.
 
So is my assumption, that Belgium and Netherlands goes for another Manufacture who offer to build at costumer,
Not more accurate, they would buy the F-17 Cobra  and build them.
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Offline Sundog

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 07:32:50 pm »
Australia definitely would have purchased it, since they helped define the mission requirements of the YF-17 for Northrop. I think West Germany may have as well, as they wanted a twin engine aircraft and many of the Dornier early TKF-90 studies looked like a version of the YF-17.

Online Archibald

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 09:59:42 am »
I was slightly wrong. What the French pilot tested was a F-17 / F-18L hybrid (wings and engines from the former) and it happened in 1978.
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline KonTim

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 02:07:54 pm »
The radar been selected for F-17 would be the APG-65 of the Hornet or of some other type?Do we have some info on this?

Also i think that Shah Iran would be a possible buyer for the aircraft.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 02:28:24 pm »
Hughes were proposing the "Atlas" radar for the P.530 (ancestor of APG-65), Westinghouse  a WX  series radar (an ancestor of APG-66).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 12:59:44 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 12:15:09 am »
Quote
Rockwell International X-band radar (left) proposed for Northrop P-530 fighter has mechanical scanning antenna with lightweight planar array and multiple pillbox feed for 180-deg. azimuth field of view. The 220-lb. radar, shown in model form, will generate 4-kw peak power output. It will have air-to-air intercept mode plus ground-map, ground-range and moving target detection and tracking capability.


Quote
Planar array antenna (right), visible in mockup of Hughes Aircraft P-530 radar entry, can swing full +-90 deg. The radar uses company-designed large-scale microcircuits, each located in a 2.2-in.-dia., 120-lead package. Two of these packages could constitute entire arithmetic/control section for 16,000 word memory processor.

Quote
Lightweight radar, being developed by Hughes Aircraft for possible application to Northrop P-530 fighter, would be rail-mounted in aircraft's nose to facilitate maintenance access. Hughes’ Bob De Haven removes processor module after sliding radar out and separating quick-disconnect connectors in demonstration.

Quote
The Hughes Atlas radar for the P-530 is aimed at a compact installation to fit the Cobra nose and easy access to line replaceable units to facilitate maintenance.
The X-band radar occupies 3.9 cu. ft., weighs about 200lb., and uses a vertically polarized 23-in.-dia. flat plate antenna with 33 db. gain. The antenna can scan a full 90 deg. in azimuth to either side of the aircraft center-line and 165 deg. in elevation. It has a low pulse repetition frequency of 0.8 to 4 kc. and a medium PRF of 8 to 17 kc. Average power output is 260 w. while prime power requirement is 3.56 kw. Peak power output is 4.5 kw. at 20% duty cycle. Like its two competitors, the Hughes radar also boasts of an MTBF (mean-time-before-failure) of at least 150 hr. Per unit radar price in quantities of about 400 will be less than $200,000, according to the company.

The multimode radar will provide ground-map and navigation functions as well as air-to-ground ranging and air-to-air intercept modes. In normal wide-angle search patterns, the Atlas radar can detect a 5-sq.-meter airborne target at 30 mi. in the look-up mode. In the narrow search mode the detection range will be 39 mi. In looking down at targets against ground clutter, it can detect in medium PRF the same target at 16 mi. The radar can acquire and track a target in the lookdown mode, Hughes says, regardless of the aircraft’s attitude, altitude or speed.

In air-to-ground ranging, the pilot can designate a ground target by putting his headup-displayed radar cursor over a selected target. The radar will track the target automatically and supply range and angle data to the aircraft’s weapon delivery computer. For dogfighting, the antenna scans about the boresight and the headup display comes on after the pilot depresses a single switch. The radar then searches and acquires targets automatically.

The radar proposed by Rockwell’s Missile Systems Div. for the P-530 will radiate 4 kw. peak power and 160 w. average. The 212 lb. sensor requires 1.75 kw. of prime power. It takes less than 12 minutes mean-time-to-repair. The Rockwell radar has a planar array antenna with a multiple pillbox feed. Antenna field of View is +-90 deg. in azimuth and +-60 deg. in elevation. Beam width is 2.8 deg. in azimuth, 3.3 deg. in elevation. In the air-to-air mode, the radar has a 20 naut. mi. look-up range using coherent Doppler, 10 mi. when operating on a frequency agility feature. In clutter conditions, coherent Doppler range is reduced to 16 naut. mi. In air-to-ground mode, the radar provides ground-map, ground range and moving-target detection and tracking. Range for ground ranging at 70 to 10 deg. depression angles is 10 naut. mi. Moving target range is 10 naut. mi., assuming a 20-sq.-meter target traveling at speeds in excess of 5 naut. mi./hr.

Westinghouse’s entry in the P-530 derby is a 225 lb. version of its WX family of airborne radars (AW&ST Aug. 28, 1972, p. 54). The pulse Doppler radar occupies 4.23 cu. ft. It has an average power output of 200 w. The radar detection range on a 2-sq. meter target with 85% probability is 20 mi. in pulse Doppler. Conventional pulse ranging permits the figure to be stretched for targets not in clutter. The radar has frequency agility on a pulse-to-pulse basis in the conventional pulse mode.
Westinghouse uses a Cassegrain antenna with a subreflector located in the aircraft’s nose. The subreflector reflects radiated energy back against the radar’s
flat plate antenna so that energy will be reflected at twice the angle of the flat plate. Switching the polarization of the subreflector permits it to become transparent to the re-radiated energy.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 01:14:02 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 01:01:23 am »
Turbo-Union were pushing for RB.199 engines for P.530 in 1974. Its possible a European-built F-17 would have had RB.199 engines.
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: What if:F-17 Cobra entered service
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2018, 01:19:42 am »
Note that the APG-65 and APG-66 are both larger (and more capable) than the P.530 radars. You could argue either would win out on the F-17.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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