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Author Topic: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III  (Read 40374 times)

Online PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #345 on: November 08, 2018, 12:44:17 am »
http://www.xinhuanet.com//mil/2018-11/08/c_129988418.htm via https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2509274-1-2.html

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Xinhua News Agency, Guangzhou, November 7th: Interview with 歼-20 first flight test pilot Li Gang: Secret story behind the 歼-20 test flight Xinhua News Agency reporters Li Xueyong, Huang Ming, Huang Shubo

at the 12th Zhuhai Air Show, Painting, new formations, new attitudes, the stunning appearance of the 歼-20 three-machine formation is undoubtedly the biggest "egg" brought to the audience by this year's air show.

歼-20 From the previous air show two-machine formation more than 1 minute of "stunning a glimpse", to the current three-aircraft formation ignited the audience climax, always let the public full of expectations. On the 7th, Li Gang, the winner of the Air Force's "Golden Medal of the Meritorious Flying Personnel Medal of Honor", accepted an interview with Xinhua News Agency on the 7th and elaborated on the wonderful story behind the 歼-20 test flight.

歼-20 First flight success time: just made up eight "one"

On January 11, 2011, the Chinese 歼-20 stealth fighter successfully made its first flight in Chengdu. As a new generation of stealth fighters in China, the J-20 opened the "20" era of the Chinese Air Force and also announced the arrival of the "Invisible Era."

Recalling the moment seven years ago, Li Gang is still difficult to hide. "As a test pilot, I was lucky to be the first to fly the 歼-20 verification machine."

At 1:11 pm on January 11, 2011, Li Gang took the flight and took off.  "Time is just eight 'one'!" Li Gang said that time is purely coincidental. The first flight plan scheduled for the 7th was postponed to 11th due to weather conditions in Chengdu.

At 13:11 on the same day, Li Gang took the flight and took off. For this historical moment, Li Gang, a soldier, is more willing to understand it as 1:11 pm, just to make up eight "ones" - "I feel proud." Li Gang said.

China's most fantastic fighter: "Information is in front of you, control on the fingertips"

was asked about the driving experience of the 歼-20, Li Gang used two words with unlimited imagination to describe: "Dream!"

The cockpit of the 歼-20 is not only spacious and simple, but also has a reasonable layout and a very comfortable driving experience. It is called “the most dreamy fighter” by China.

"All those who have seen the 歼-20 cockpit will sigh: so neat, there are so few electric switches!" Li Gang said that in the cockpit of the 歼-20, both soft and hard switches are very modern.

Li Gang said that the cockpit of the 歼-20, no matter what the electric door, knows what it is for according to the switch; when you fly at night, you know what the electric door is, and it has a good error-proof design. “Operation is like playing games on a mobile phone, from launching a target to launching a missile very fast.”

A pilot once described the experience of driving a 歼-20, an integrated LCD display, a simple electric door switch... "Information is in front of you, control is on the fingertips."

"Maybe many sci-fi things in reality are becoming reality through technology." Li Gang said.
 
Cockpit layout:

Li Gang, the pilot's cockpit “painted” on the drawings, said that the cockpit layout is very important for an airplane. The cockpit design of the 歼-20 was called “the best office” by Li Gang. The success of the cockpit was due to the in-depth participation of the 试-20 chief designer and the Chinese Academy of Sciences academician Yang Wei.

“Yang Wei sent us a lot of blank cockpit maps, gave a lot of small pictures of the switch, let us experience it, and put the corresponding switch on the position that we think is reasonable.” Li Gang said, if everyone posted In one position, the explanations are consistent; if they are inconsistent, they will meet for discussion.

In Li Gang’s impression, such discussions have gone through at least five rounds. “Finally, all the cockpit layouts are a result of coordination.”

From the drawings drawn by the test flight team, to the wooden cockpit, to the metal cockpit... the designer and the test pilot docked over and over again, to the subtleties Keep improving and become the most sci-fi fighter cockpit in China.

Design concept: Agility is comparable to the 歼-10, the first use of sidebar operation

As China's first stealth fighter, the 歼-20 is inevitably compared with the “one generation machine” 歼-10 in terms of maneuverability.

Li Gang said that due to its stealth demand, the 歼-20 is much more complicated in designing the aerodynamic shape than the general aircraft. After the unremitting efforts of the design team, the 歼-20 has achieved excellent agility and handling, which is no different from the 歼-10.

On the 6th flight demonstration in Zhuhai, the cool body of the 歼-20 three-machine formation pulled up a silver-white vortex in the azure sky, earning the attention and tears of the audience, and the agility is self-evident.

“The 歼-20 cockpit also uses sidebar operation, which is also the first time in the history of Chinese fighters.” Li Gang introduced that this design concept has three advantages: one is that the pilot's vision is clearer; the other is to enhance the agility of the fighter; It is more conducive to the aircraft to carry out large overload flight.

Of course, as China's first stealth fighter, the most attention is still its stealth performance. "Stealth performance is very good!" Li Gang said that as a fighter, stealth performance is critical to combat use.

From the verification machine to the equipment combat troops: thousands of flights were tested.

"It is not easy to equip an aircraft with troops. There are thousands of flights in the middle." Li Gang introduced from the first flight of the 歼-20 verification machine in 2011 to 2014. The first flight prototype, and then officially installed combat troops at the beginning of this year, 歼-20 lasted 7 years to complete the complete process from the first flight to the technical appraisal to the equipment combat troops.

Since 2011, Li Gang has been responsible for the 歼-20 technical model in the Air Force Test Flight Bureau and led the flight test team to complete the 歼-20 test.

"A lot of new technologies of the 歼-20, our country is the first time to adopt." Li Gang said, "In just a few years, I have been so proud of the fact that I have completed such a large number of test flights and equipped the troops so quickly and formed combat capabilities. Glorious."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:51:44 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline totoro

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #346 on: November 08, 2018, 01:27:57 am »
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The 歼-20 cockpit also uses sidebar operation, which is also the first time in the history of Chinese fighters. Li Gang introduced that this design concept has three advantages: one is that the pilot's vision is clearer; the other is to enhance the agility of the fighter; It is more conducive to the aircraft to carry out large overload flight.

What does the above mean? Sidebar on its own could mean a side stick controller, but the rest of the text makes it clear it's something else. What does "more conducive to the aircraft to carry out large overload flight" even mean?
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Offline siegecrossbow

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 11:53:59 am by flateric »

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #348 on: November 08, 2018, 04:55:40 am »
An advantage claimed for the sidestick in its early days was that the pilot's arms could be supported at high-g, so I suspect that's what's being talked about.

I don't know why there is so much heat being expended here on the J-20 design. The F-22 influence is obvious, and the missile carriage goals very similar (and that is an enormous design driver) and we also know that the designer had to depend on imported AL-31s, which were not as powerful (particularly dry supersonic) as the F119.

However, the customer and contractor went in a different direction from the F-22 in terms of mission engineering and maneuver requirements. The F-22 is designed with extreme low-speed agility using vectoring but also a high degree of controllability even with vectoring inoperative - hence its gigantic control surfaces. The LO vectoring nozzles are also very heavy. The price is an unexciting fuel fraction.

The PLA and Chengdu apparently realized that a fast airplane for air defense and precision strike needed less emphasis on all-round LO or agility. Result: more available volume with a similar OEW.

It's interesting to look at the overall proportions of an FB-22 "design" exercise from 2002, aimed at trading agility for range. The wing, and no stabilizers, wouldn't have worked for China (tailless and inlay surfaces would have been several bridges too far), so they moved a couple of steps beyond the J-10 and rediscovered all-moving verticals, which for some reason we forgot about in 1965.

In short, J-20 is an object lesson in how to do mission engineering in order to create a configuration that is efficient and not wasteful. It can be argued that an F-22 pilot who gets into a position where he/she needs the TV and the big flappy bits at the back has already messed up.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:04:12 am by LowObservable »

Online PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #349 on: November 08, 2018, 07:24:44 am »
Yep, its Google translate. 'Sidebar controller' is obviously sidestick controller - it improves visibility of the cockpit displays by not blocking valuable real estate near the centre with a control stick, plus its argued to help pilots carry on manouvering under heavy g load as their elbow is supported, not resting on their thigh, as LowObservable says.

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As China's first stealth fighter, the J-20 is inevitably compared with the “one generation machine” J-10 in terms of maneuverability.

Li Gang said that due to its stealth demand, the 歼-20 is much more complicated in designing the aerodynamic shape than the general aircraft. After the unremitting efforts of the design team, the 歼-20 has achieved excellent agility and handling, which is no different from the J-10.

On the 6th flight demonstration in Zhuhai, the cool body of the 歼-20 three-machine formation pulled up a silver-white vortex in the azure sky, earning the attention and tears of the audience, and the agility is self-evident.

Quote
Of course, as China's first stealth fighter, the most attention is still its stealth performance. "Stealth performance is very good!" Li Gang said that as a fighter, stealth performance is critical to combat use.

Definitely interesting comments here. While thrust-vectoring WS-15 engines would take J-20 to a new level of agility, the initial model is comparable to 'fourth generation' aircraft.

The use of off-the-shelf non-stealthy nozzles on the early J-20 engines suggests they were only ever intended as a temporary solution pending the arrival of a new 'stealthy' nozzle and higher performing engine. Why take the time to planform align all the panel lines surrounding the engine then stick a big RCS beacon in the middle?

 The J-10B TVC nozzle shows signs of RCS shaping. Presumably "J-20A" will have the new WS-15 engine and stealthy TVC nozzles similar to the J-10B TVC demonstrator.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 07:49:24 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline sferrin

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #350 on: November 08, 2018, 08:44:30 am »
Presumably "J-20A" will have the new WS-15 engine and stealthy TVC nozzles similar to the J-10B TVC demonstrator.

Wonder if we'd ever see that engine on the T-50/Su-57. That would be quite a twist.
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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #352 on: November 08, 2018, 10:18:47 am »
This is a terrible article by a reporter with no credibility in defence reporting. I would ignore it completely.
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Offline latenlazy

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #353 on: November 08, 2018, 12:16:27 pm »
Yep, its Google translate. 'Sidebar controller' is obviously sidestick controller - it improves visibility of the cockpit displays by not blocking valuable real estate near the centre with a control stick, plus its argued to help pilots carry on manouvering under heavy g load as their elbow is supported, not resting on their thigh, as LowObservable says.

Quote
As China's first stealth fighter, the J-20 is inevitably compared with the “one generation machine” J-10 in terms of maneuverability.

Li Gang said that due to its stealth demand, the 歼-20 is much more complicated in designing the aerodynamic shape than the general aircraft. After the unremitting efforts of the design team, the 歼-20 has achieved excellent agility and handling, which is no different from the J-10.

On the 6th flight demonstration in Zhuhai, the cool body of the 歼-20 three-machine formation pulled up a silver-white vortex in the azure sky, earning the attention and tears of the audience, and the agility is self-evident.

Quote
Of course, as China's first stealth fighter, the most attention is still its stealth performance. "Stealth performance is very good!" Li Gang said that as a fighter, stealth performance is critical to combat use.

Definitely interesting comments here. While thrust-vectoring WS-15 engines would take J-20 to a new level of agility, the initial model is comparable to 'fourth generation' aircraft.

We’ve heard from a pilot before that the J-20 has pretty good subsonic maneuverability and extremely good transonic and supersonic maneuverability. We’ve also heard from another source that’s uncorroborated who said the J-20’s STR is on par with the F-16’s. The comments from the interview you quoted might corroborate the others.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:19:23 pm by latenlazy »

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #354 on: November 08, 2018, 12:38:22 pm »
Yep, J-10 subsonic performance is in the same class as F-16. I'd consider this corroborated.
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Offline Blitzo

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #355 on: November 08, 2018, 01:11:40 pm »
The J-10B TVC nozzle shows signs of RCS shaping. Presumably "J-20A" will have the new WS-15 engine and stealthy TVC nozzles similar to the J-10B TVC demonstrator.

J-20A will probably have WS-10 engines that may or may not have TVC nozzles but should have stealthy serrations. I don't think WS-15 will be ready in time for the "A" variant. Then again I'm still not sure what the title of the current in service aircraft are; J-20s or J-20A.


As for talk about J-20's maneuverability, back when J-20 was still J-XX and rumours began to solidify that it would have to use interim engines at first before WS-15, I remember hearing talk about how they would likely try to aim for at least 4th generation performance with interim engines. Of course I don't recall if those were insiders or if it was just a logical deduction, though probably the latter.


In any case, I think achieving 4th generation or J-10 like kinematic performance for J-20 to complement its rf stealth, sensors, weapons, and inherent range/endurance makes it a satisfactory starter stealth fighter capability for the PLA and should allow it to fulfill the air superiority role many times better than the next best 4th generation fighter in the PLA's arsenal.

Offline latenlazy

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #356 on: November 08, 2018, 02:26:10 pm »
The J-10B TVC nozzle shows signs of RCS shaping. Presumably "J-20A" will have the new WS-15 engine and stealthy TVC nozzles similar to the J-10B TVC demonstrator.

J-20A will probably have WS-10 engines that may or may not have TVC nozzles but should have stealthy serrations. I don't think WS-15 will be ready in time for the "A" variant. Then again I'm still not sure what the title of the current in service aircraft are; J-20s or J-20A.


As for talk about J-20's maneuverability, back when J-20 was still J-XX and rumours began to solidify that it would have to use interim engines at first before WS-15, I remember hearing talk about how they would likely try to aim for at least 4th generation performance with interim engines. Of course I don't recall if those were insiders or if it was just a logical deduction, though probably the latter.


In any case, I think achieving 4th generation or J-10 like kinematic performance for J-20 to complement its rf stealth, sensors, weapons, and inherent range/endurance makes it a satisfactory starter stealth fighter capability for the PLA and should allow it to fulfill the air superiority role many times better than the next best 4th generation fighter in the PLA's arsenal.

I think the J-20 more or less turned out as described in Song’s paper. Equivalent subsonic maneuverability and superior transonic and supersonic maneuverability to 4th gen fighters using weaker engines than the 5th gen standard.

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #357 on: November 08, 2018, 03:07:01 pm »
I think the J-20 more or less turned out as described in Song’s paper. Equivalent subsonic maneuverability and superior transonic and supersonic maneuverability to 4th gen fighters using weaker engines than the 5th gen standard.

it will be very interesting to see how J-20 performs with its intended engines

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #358 on: November 08, 2018, 03:13:30 pm »
I don't know why there is so much heat being expended here on the J-20 design. The F-22 influence is obvious, and the missile carriage goals very similar (and that is an enormous design driver) and we also know that the designer had to depend on imported AL-31s, which were not as powerful (particularly dry supersonic) as the F119.

Well specifically I think the last page or so was talking about the J-20's specific canard+LERX+delta+all moving tail+lifting body configuration and the aerodynamic performance that was meant to achieve, both in terms of J-20's role and indirectly what kind of performance it's meant to achieve relative to its likely competitors.


And as far as current flying and proposed 5th generation fighters go, I think one has to admit J-20's aerodynamic configuration is among the more unique. Bringing up Song's paper back here naturally would spark some more discussion about the aircraft's aerodynamic configuration

Offline Ainen

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Re: Chengdu J-20 news, pictures, analysis Part III
« Reply #359 on: November 08, 2018, 09:09:22 pm »
The PLA and Chengdu apparently realized that a fast airplane for air defense and precision strike needed less emphasis on all-round LO or agility. Result: more available volume with a similar OEW.
When you create air defence/precision strike l/o airplane, you at least equip it with appropriate deep long bays. Like su-57. Or F-35.
From everything we saw, j-20 bay is a wide and shallow, raptor-like bay of a pure air superiority breed. Which is strongly supported by the presence of smaller WVR bays.
And as far as current flying and proposed 5th generation fighters go, I think one has to admit J-20's aerodynamic configuration is among the more unique. Bringing up Song's paper back here naturally would spark some more discussion about the aircraft's aerodynamic configuration
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« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 09:25:43 pm by Ainen »