Register here

Author Topic: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects  (Read 10329 times)

Offline memaerobilia

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 136
    • Memaerobilia
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2010, 02:40:10 pm »
Interesting design history note on the XP-71, since it comes directly from the company records and not some "historian's" assumption or analysis).
The XP-71 was an 'outgrowth of P-259 & P-264." it was scheduled to be built at St. Louis, before Sales Order D-27 for two XP-71s was cancelled.
Joe G.

Offline pometablava

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 3313
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2010, 03:10:32 pm »
Quote
P-259 & P-264

Any info/drawings on those designs?


Offline memaerobilia

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 136
    • Memaerobilia
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2010, 04:39:06 pm »
I only discovered those P-259 & P-264 mentions this morning, and am interested in finding more, myself. Will keep looking-now that I know what I am looking for  ;) I'm quite pleased at the success of finding out the meaning of "S.O." in the production charts, so quickly today, after seeing it and wondering what it meant, for past couple of years. You never know what will drop out of some of these old files. But quite a bit of fun during the "treasure hunts." Always pieces of puzzles and mysteries, explained and revealed. :)
Joe G.

Offline memaerobilia

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 136
    • Memaerobilia
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2010, 08:36:50 am »
"CW" list (from this thread) clarification:

CW-2; Coupe; 1931; St. Louis; Kinner 100hp; 2 PCLM

(*my understanding of these standard codes...2 passenger-(including pilot), closed-cockpit, Land, monoplane)
Not built.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 09:07:32 am by memaerobilia »
Joe G.

Offline memaerobilia

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 136
    • Memaerobilia
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2010, 09:50:14 am »
CW-16 clarifications

CW-16; Trainer; Travel Air; 16E; 1930-33; St. Louis; Wright R-540; 3POLB, 175hp

CW-16; (Com); Travel Air; 16K; 1931; St. Louis; Kinner 125hp; 3POLB

CW-16; Travel Air 16W; 1931; S. Louis; Warner Scarab 110hp; 3POLB

MY note would be, while Aerofiles and other sources  MAY have listed as "CW"-16E, "CW"-16K, and "CW"-16W "Models". I do not think this is correct as a Curtiss designation. No problem with listing them as "Travel Air Model 16-E" etc etc.  But 'IF" they were listed in usual official company designations they were more likely to be listed as "Design numbers" with the usual A-Z dash letter. "CW-16, CW-16A. CW-16B" etc etc
The company policy as to designations is quoted in their book as. "Subsequent variations or developments of the design are given a dash letter." As can be plainly seen in their many pages of charts and designation listings, these dash letters FOR THE DESIGN NUMBER are A-Z in alphabetical order, and not letters of engine codes. The additon of a dash letter as engine code is used in the "Alternate Model Designation."

The Company "Prime Model Designation" would be "Travel Air." The company "Alternative Model Designation" would be listed as "16-E, 16-K" etc etc

Also, having a strong interest in the pre-WWII engines, it might be noted that the Wright R-540 is also commonly known as the Wright J-6-5 Whirlwind.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 11:51:16 am by Stargazer2006 »
Joe G.

Offline memaerobilia

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 136
    • Memaerobilia
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2010, 09:53:54 am »
CW-5; Freighter; Pegasus; (proposed)
Joe G.

Offline memaerobilia

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 136
    • Memaerobilia
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2012, 08:43:43 am »
Doing some more digging throgh the Curtiss archives, this morning. Came across a mention of the Curtiss Wright Model 410 in the back of the X-19 files. Huge VTOL with Ten times the payload @ 12,740-15,000 lbs. It is/was also a four engine tilt rotor with 23' props. Will do some more digging..
Joe G.

Offline kenneth

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2012, 05:54:19 am »
Hi all
if you google Travel Air 4000, wikipedia gives a page of information about this aircraft. however it does not refer to the Travel Air 4000 as Curtiss Wright CW-4 but as CW-14. however lists appearing on this tread indicate it as being CW-4, and CW-14 being a different aircraft. i am confused. can someone clarify please?

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2012, 06:04:22 am »
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 07:44:54 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline kenneth

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 06:26:56 am »
Thanks Stargazer
 
i want to add that the Travel Air 4000 (as well as the 5000 and 6000) were later being called Travel Air 4 (5, 6 etc). it seems Travel Air, upon being absorbed by Curtiss Wright removed the three zeroes from their designations.

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2014, 07:00:37 am »
I'm not sure if the following so-called "mystery" has ever been debunked in this thread, but I should think not, so here goes.

Author Peter Bowers and others mentioned five mysterious/unverified entries that appear in the U.S. civilian register as pertaining to unidentified Curtiss-Wright types. These are as follows:
  • 3435    Curtis Wright Coupe (Anzani) (c/n CW1A)
  • 3436    Curtis Wright Aircoach (Hispano-Suiza) (c/n CW1H)
  • X9741  Curtis Wright CW-2 Sport Trainer (Anzani) (c/n 1-C)
  • X9742  Curtis Wright CW-4 Commercial (Siemens) (c/n 2-C)
  • X9743  Curtis Wright CW-5 Junior Transport (3 Anzanis) (c/n 3-C)
As the Aerofiles website rightly points out, these are NOT related in any way to the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Co. or any of its subsidiaries, but to Mr. Curtis (first name) Wright (surname) from Halfway, Michigan. Several clues can easily confirm that:
  • The spelling "Curtis" and the absence of a hyphen in between Curtis and Wright.
  • The dates of these registrations (1927 for the first two, and January 9, 1929 for the other three) predate the existence of the name "Curtiss-Wright Airplane Co." (the merger officially took place on July 5, 1929).
  • The form of the c/n numbers which does not resemble anything Curtiss-Wright or its subsidiaries ever did.
  • The mere fact that five distinct prototypes could not simply have been omitted in all Curtiss-Wright records.
It would seem, however, that Aerofiles got confused over the Coupe and Aircoach, as CW1A and CW1H are apparently listed as c/n, not model numbers (although it is safe to assume that the model number may also have been CW-1). A sixth registration is [179M] allocated to a "Coats CW-2P" (c/n 2P-101). This may or may not be related to the CW-2 listed above, but the fact that the engine is the same is certainly worthy of notice. There remains a mystery here, though, Mr Wright's missing "CW-3"...

Anyway, to make the story complete, the same Curtis Wright settled in Los Angeles in 1945 under the company name "Curtis Wright Industries' Aircraft & Trailers". He built the diminutive CW-2 Flymobile helicopter that same year, and the CW-21 twin-boom pusher [NX37601] in 1947, two prototypes that found no market. No doubt that keeping both his names in the company's identity was seen as a clever marketing ploy by Wright as it could give the impression that the designs emanated from a respected aviation giant instead of a small caravan and trailer manufacturer!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 07:05:15 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2014, 08:47:49 am »
I have now split the Curtiss designations topic into smaller separate ones. This here topic is for the CW- designations and P- projects. Other topics are as follows:

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2014, 01:07:49 pm »
Allow me to answer a few untackled questions from earlier in this thread:


"SKY-CLEARER" Interceptor Pursuit, 1944

I think the Sky-Clearer interceptor pursuit was from Curtiss-Wright design,so it was XP-55 and not XF15C-1.

The P-55 was not an "interceptor" and the F15C was not a "pursuit" (that word was only used by the Army for their fighters, and stuck until 1948 when the P- for pursuit became the F- for fighter). The only candidate that fits the description "Curtiss-Wright Corporation, 'Sky-Clearer' Interceptor Pursuit (abandoned), 8/10/44" and was scheduled to be built at St. Louis is the XP-71.



Curtiss-Wright CW-2

CW-2; Coupe; 1931; St. Louis; Kinner 100hp; 2 PCLM

Three things I want to point out here. First, as the list shared by aim9xray suggests, "Coupe" was not the name given to the CW-2 but only the type of aircraft. Secondly, since the Curtiss-Robertson CR-1 Skeeter prototype was produced as the CW-1 Junior, it is possible that the CW-2 might likewise have been a planned production version of the CR-2 Coupe prototypes. Finally, I have read somewhere that the Coupe sort of laid the foundations for what became the CW-19 Sparrow/Coupe. Unless the CW-2 was to have been a major redesign of the CR-2 there is really two little commonality between the 1929 Coupe and the 1935 one to establish such a lineage!



Curtiss-Wright CW-5 "PEGASUS"

CW-5; Freighter; Pegasus; (proposed)

It is likely that the CW-5 JUNIOR TRANSPORT (also found as the FREIGHTER) also started life as the Travel Air 5000.

I made a terrible mistake here as I was mixing up the Curtiss-Wright CW-5 Pegasus, an unbuilt freighter proposal, with the "Curtis Wright" CW-5 Junior Transport, an evasive 1929 prototype that had nothing to do with the Curtiss-Wright Airplane Co. (see two posts above).

In fact I made TWO terrible mistakes in this thread, for which I deeply apologize. The Travel Air 5000 was NEVER allocated the CW-5 slot for record purposes. Just like the 1000, 2000, 3000, the 5000 was no longer produced. Only the types that were still in production or still considered for production got a number in the new CW- list. That left the company with four unused slots, which they allocated to the Junior (CW-1), the unbuilt coupe (CW-2), the Duck (formerly known as Teal and Duckling) (CW-3) and the Pegasus freighter project (CW-5).



B-2 "CONDOR"?

Was the original B-2 bomber, also named Condor, also under the CW-4 designation or did it have another?

Jos Heyman already partly answered this one, but let me add to it. The CW- list was for Saint-Louis related designs ONLY. The Condor bomber and Condor CO (Condor 18) transport were not only earlier (being drafted in 1929), but they were Garden City and Buffalo products. When the 1935 system was introduced, the NBS-4, B-2 Condor and Condor 18 received the Models 36, 52 and 53 designations in retrospect. The T-32 Condor (the Condor "II") was purely a Saint-Louis product, bestowed upon that branch as a bone to chew when production of other types subsided.

Why call it CW-4 afterwards when the type was no longer produced? The reason for this is strange, as in all logic it should have occupied a much later slot, and the CW-4 slot had previously been reserved for the Travel Air 4 (previously Travel Air 4000). Perhaps a case of superstition to avoid CW-13? We will never know...



Curtiss-Wright Model 410

Curtiss had projected a whole range of this type of aircraft with known type designations 201, 203, 205, 207, 300, 325, 410, 425 and 500, but with probably a lot more designs.

Doing some more digging throgh the Curtiss archives, this morning. Came across a mention of the Curtiss Wright Model 410 in the back of the X-19 files. Huge VTOL with Ten times the payload @ 12,740-15,000 lbs. It is/was also a four engine tilt rotor with 23' props. Will do some more digging..

The Model 410 (also found as X-410) is probably pretty close to the Model 425 (X-425) / LT-1 "Light Transport" passenger or troop transport project. Perhaps a cargo variant of the same?



Curtiss-Wright CW-33

For CW-33,please see;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,888.msg7261/highlight,cw+33.html#msg7261

It appears through comparing the various bits of data at our disposal that this designation was assigned to a carrier-based heavy attack bomber project designated inhouse as the P-558 and submitted to the OS-111 tender. It was given Contract No. 10430 but lost to the A3D.



Curtiss-Wright CW-40

CW-40----Helicopter,formerly Doman LZ-4.

"The LZ-4 is the engineer-produced and hand-built prototype of the LZ-5. Built specifically for research purposes, it was taken over by Curtiss Wright, where it was given the designation of CW-40. The LZ-4's maiden flight took place in November 1950."
P.Lambermont "Helicopters and Autogyros of the World", 1958

"Doman moved on to the improved LZ-5 and transferred the LZ-4A (N74147) to Curtiss Wright as a test vehicle."
R.Simpson "Airlife's Helicopter and Rotorcraft", 1998

You can notice in these two references a disagreement on the designation: LZ-4? LZ-4A? Why did Curtiss-Wright take over that prototype specifically, anyway? The only reference we have to a Curtiss-Wright helicopter project is this "Curtiss-Wright Helicopter Airliner Development Report V-151-S-3, 10/00/44" but it's earlier, and apart from this, no helicopter work was associated to the company in that period of time... Perhaps some engine- or blade-related work?



"Design Numbers", "model Numbers", or "Alternate Model Designations"?

while Aerofiles and other sources  MAY have listed as "CW"-16E, "CW"-16K, and "CW"-16W "Models". I do not think this is correct as a Curtiss designation. No problem with listing them as "Travel Air Model 16-E" etc etc.  But 'IF" they were listed in usual official company designations they were more likely to be listed as "Design numbers" with the usual A-Z dash letter. "CW-16, CW-16A. CW-16B" etc etc
The company policy as to designations is quoted in their book as. "Subsequent variations or developments of the design are given a dash letter." As can be plainly seen in their many pages of charts and designation listings, these dash letters FOR THE DESIGN NUMBER are A-Z in alphabetical order, and not letters of engine codes. The additon of a dash letter as engine code is used in the "Alternate Model Designation."
The Company "Prime Model Designation" would be "Travel Air." The company "Alternative Model Designation" would be listed as "16-E, 16-K" etc etc

Point well taken. I, of all people, do use the terms "model", "type" and "design" very often indistinctly whereas they can represent very different notions depending on the manufacturer. In the case of Curtiss we can see clearly that there were "Primary Model Designations" (often a bird's name) and an "Alternate Model Designations" (most often the military designation). However, in both cases they are still refered to as "Model Designations". In the case of the CW-16 series, "CW-16" is considered the "Design Number" and is put in parentheses (an indication that it was never used as such), "Travel Air" the "Primary Model Designation", and 16-E, 16-K and 16-W are clearly marked as "Alternate Model Designations". Still, looking at the whole list, there are many incoherences and therefore whatever we find there must always be taken with a pinch of salt and cross-referenced with other company documents!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 07:26:30 am by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2014, 07:43:13 am »
if you google Travel Air 4000, wikipedia gives a page of information about this aircraft. however it does not refer to the Travel Air 4000 as Curtiss Wright CW-4 but as CW-14. however lists appearing on this tread indicate it as being CW-4, and CW-14 being a different aircraft. i am confused. can someone clarify please?

"CW-14" for the Travel Air 4000 is definitely a typo. It should read CW-4. The CW-14 was a biplane variously called the Sportsman, the Speedwing or the Osprey depending on the versions.
Please note also that the "CW-4" designation was allocated for record purposes but was seldom used, as people continued to refer to the aircraft as a "Travel Air." Also, "CW-4" is said to have been given at some point (still for record purposes) to the T-32 Condor.

Something I didn't sufficiently insist on is that the Travel Air 12, 14 and 16 aircraft (designs CW-12, CW-14, CW-16 in the company records) were developed from the Travel Air 4 (or 4000). Upon checking the Wikipedia page, I realize that the way they put is not quite what kenneth said. They do NOT refer to the Travel Air 4000 "as Curtiss CW-14"... What they actually say is that the Travel Air 4000 "continued in production into the early 1930s as the CW-14"! That's a different thing altogether!

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: Curtiss-Wright CW- designations and P- projects
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2014, 02:57:31 pm »
If you have a designation to add or discuss, this is the right place.


However, to share pictures of a type that's already listed and/or documented on the forum, some other topics are more appropriate.


I have moved the posts on the P-558 project to the dedicated OS-111 topic which already contains more images of the same:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,570.msg211086.html#msg211086