US Navy’s UCLASS / CBARS / MQ-XX / MQ-25 Stingray Program

sublight is back said:
This is incredibly disturbing. How did these people even transition from sails to propellers and from horses to the automobile?


Not really surprising -- managing technological change is hard, especially when there is any uncertainty about the effectiveness of that technology. Seriously, it's hard to blame them for being nervous. The high-spec UCLASS advocates are asking the Navy to hang it's future carrier-based strike capacity on a largely unproven concept. No one has done strike in denied airspace using a high-performance drone, even without the potential challences of adding carrier compatibility to the requirements. I'd want to take a few baby steps first too. Problem is, the budget environment won't let them both continue known apparoaches and seriously test novel ones.
 
TomS said:
sublight is back said:
This is incredibly disturbing. How did these people even transition from sails to propellers and from horses to the automobile?


Not really surprising -- managing technological change is hard, especially when there is any uncertainty about the effectiveness of that technology. Seriously, it's hard to blame them for being nervous. The high-spec UCLASS advocates are asking the Navy to hang it's future carrier-based strike capacity on a largely unproven concept. No one has done strike in denied airspace using a high-performance drone, even without the potential challences of adding carrier compatibility to the requirements. I'd want to take a few baby steps first too. Problem is, the budget environment won't let them both continue known apparoaches and seriously test novel ones.

I believe that it is more institutional resistance within Naval Aviation of moving the pilot out of the cockpit to a console rather than the technical risk. UCAVs and other drones are a threat to manned fighters and other manned aircraft/helicopters. A deep-strike UCLASS is not only a threat to F/A-XX, but to existing F-18 and F-35 fighter aircraft. Proper pilots fly airplanes rather than teleoperate remotely-piloted vehicles. What are the career prospects for a console jockey within the Navy and later civil aviation?
 
Triton said:
TomS said:
sublight is back said:
This is incredibly disturbing. How did these people even transition from sails to propellers and from horses to the automobile?


Not really surprising -- managing technological change is hard, especially when there is any uncertainty about the effectiveness of that technology. Seriously, it's hard to blame them for being nervous. The high-spec UCLASS advocates are asking the Navy to hang it's future carrier-based strike capacity on a largely unproven concept. No one has done strike in denied airspace using a high-performance drone, even without the potential challences of adding carrier compatibility to the requirements. I'd want to take a few baby steps first too. Problem is, the budget environment won't let them both continue known apparoaches and seriously test novel ones.

I believe that it is more institutional resistance within Naval Aviation of moving the pilot out of the cockpit to a console rather than the technical risk. UCAVs and other drones are a threat to manned fighters and other manned aircraft/helicopters. A deep-strike UCLASS is not only a threat to F/A-XX, but to existing F-18 and F-35 fighter aircraft. Proper pilots fly airplanes rather than teleoperate remotely-piloted vehicles. What are the career prospects for a console jockey within the Navy and later civil aviation?

It's only a threat because politicians would think it could perform missions it couldn't. Air combat for instance. Unfortunately much of the public is similarly misinformed.
 
sferrin said:
It's only a threat because politicians would think it could perform missions it couldn't. Air combat for instance. Unfortunately much of the public is similarly misinformed.
That, but also, any future manned fighter has to be multirole, and I think that's what they were afraid of. A highly capable deep strike UCAV would take away some of those capabilities where another case of f-22 with only air to air requirements, and limited ground capabilities, will happen again, and of course, face the whole cancellation thing. These days, anything not multirole is as good as dead, so sad.
 
"Crunch Time For UCLASS: USD Kendall, Rep. Forbes, & The Requirements Fight"
by Sydney J. Freedberg Jr. on August 05, 2014 at 6:28 PM

http://breakingdefense.com/2014/08/crunch-time-for-uclass-usd-kendall-rep-forbes-the-requirements-fight/
 
Is rep. Forbes ready to mark up the Navy's budget so they can afford the stealthy penetrating bomber he wants, or is he asking them to do it within their current topline? They already cannot afford the ships their requirements state they need, and the F-35 is eating the aviation budget alive.
 
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/08/art-of-the-possible-navy-defends-goals-for-uclass-drone-as-decision-looms/
 
bobbymike said:
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/08/art-of-the-possible-navy-defends-goals-for-uclass-drone-as-decision-looms/

That is one hell of a depressing read. I'm a layman, but even I know that this is a terrible mistake.
 
Ian33 said:
bobbymike said:
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/08/art-of-the-possible-navy-defends-goals-for-uclass-drone-as-decision-looms/

That is one hell of a depressing read. I'm a layman, but even I know that this is a terrible mistake.

That they're scaling way back from an X-47B class or the whole concept in general?
 
sferrin said:
That they're scaling way back from an X-47B class or the whole concept in general?

That they are scaling way back nothing more than a jet powered Reaper type. My friend flew A-6 Intruders and even he cannot see why the USN is opting for such a lowly goal even if manned jet types feel a little put out. The US carrier is about force projection yet its reach is the shortest its ever been since ww2. Sad days.
 
Ian33 said:
sferrin said:
That they're scaling way back from an X-47B class or the whole concept in general?

That they are scaling way back nothing more than a jet powered Reaper type. My friend flew A-6 Intruders and even he cannot see why the USN is opting for such a lowly goal even if manned jet types feel a little put out. The US carrier is about force projection yet its reach is the shortest its ever been since ww2. Sad days.

I'd have to agree with you there. The utility of an X-47B-type aircraft would be difficult to overstate. With it's large volume, internal weapons bays, and (theoretically) a pair of pylons it could serve as a tanker as well leaving Super Hornets to actually fight, in addition to restoring the long range strike capability lost with the retirement of the A-6s.
 
F-35 is a vortex sucking money and political will to restore the navy to its "vision of the future" back in the late 80s and early 90s. There's simply no money for anything more serious than a surveillance drone that eyeball a couple of guys with ak-47 in a pickup truck. And then there's the establishment that will strike down anything that makes the f-35 look bad.
 
If by "crap" you meant "flame war" in which you had personally chosen to be involved in, then you should change both the tone and the attitude. It's a not about whether I personally like the f-35 or not, but a realistic assessment which was admitted by the Navy. Rather than a criticism of the f-35 (which it isn't), my opinion only speaks of the current political structure of the military that prevents the navy from fulfilling its dreams.


Btw, drop the "we," you can only speak for yourself.
 
sferrin said:
Do you really think anybody else enjoys your frequent treading the line of starting up the flame war again? Trying to slip in a jab here and there and then proclaiming innocence?


I don't remember the last time I "slip in a jab" against the f-35 nor that such behavior, if ever existed, was "frequent." But of course, you are free to interpret it however you want. Let's just move on.
 
donnage99 said:
sferrin said:
Do you really think anybody else enjoys your frequent treading the line of starting up the flame war again? Trying to slip in a jab here and there and then proclaiming innocence?


I don't remember the last time I "slip in a jab" against the f-35 nor that such behavior, if ever existed, was "frequent." But of course, you are free to interpret it however you want. Let's just move on.

Fair enough.
 
*cough* Skyray, Skylancer, Cutlass. . .


And they had such illustrious careers... ;) Seriously, obviously they can be made to work but the lack of a tailplane does hold them back (can't trim to such a high CLmax with all that brings). However, all of engineering is a compromise and one presumes the -ve aspacts of a design with a reduced signature is a price worth paying.
 
shedofdread said:
*cough* Skyray, Skylancer, Cutlass. . .


And they had such illustrious careers... ;)

Blame the engines not the tail. (And the Skyray wasn't that bad. If it was they wouldn't have tried to reuse the design with the Skylancer.)
 
UCLASS RFP Delayed Again.
The final request for proposal (RFP) for the Navy’s planned carrier-based unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) has been delayed pending a review of the service’s information, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) portfolio as part of the service’s budget process this fall, Navy officials told USNI News on Friday afternoon.
 
Moose said:
UCLASS RFP Delayed Again.
The final request for proposal (RFP) for the Navy’s planned carrier-based unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) has been delayed pending a review of the service’s information, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) portfolio as part of the service’s budget process this fall, Navy officials told USNI News on Friday afternoon.

This line just make me go 'Yeah you people know what's needed.'
A second group has called for a stealthy heavily armed UAV that would significantly extend the range of U.S. carriers beyond the current 450 nautical range of the current crop of manned strike aircraft
If the USN wants only a permissive environment UAV, why the whole effort of the J-UCAS (Yeah I know it split so the USAF could go their own way) but really? nothing better than launching a Reaper off a carrier? That's not progress or a value for money exercise in my humble opinion.
 
Ian33 said:
If the USN wants only a permissive environment UAV, why the whole effort of the J-UCAS (Yeah I know it split so the USAF could go their own way) but really? nothing better than launching a Reaper off a carrier? That's not progress or a value for money exercise in my humble opinion.

IMO it smacks of, "we need to buy something so it doesn't look like we've squandered years with nothing to show for it". Really a shame that, after all the success they've had with the X-47Bs, that nobody seems to have the spine to say, "this is what we need". You can be certain that China won't be making that mistake.
 
I look at the J-UCAS split and wonder if the USAF saw the writing on the wall all those years ago - and decided that if the USN wasn't going to go all in for a stealthy penetrating airframe they were going to jump ship with plenty of time to get their own effort finalised.

I'd Love to know what the USAF did end up making though!

PS

As for China? No, they seem to know that 'He who controls the skies controls the battlefield.'
 
sferrin said:
Ian33 said:
If the USN wants only a permissive environment UAV, why the whole effort of the J-UCAS (Yeah I know it split so the USAF could go their own way) but really? nothing better than launching a Reaper off a carrier? That's not progress or a value for money exercise in my humble opinion.

IMO it smacks of, "we need to buy something so it doesn't look like we've squandered years with nothing to show for it". Really a shame that, after all the success they've had with the X-47Bs, that nobody seems to have the spine to say, "this is what we need". You can be certain that China won't be making that mistake.

Hope it's not the short sighted 'We don't want it to replace manned aircraft' concern.
 
bobbymike said:
Hope it's not the short sighted 'We don't want it to replace manned aircraft' concern.

It's actually been admitted by the Navy that it's part of the reasons. However, it's a money issue, and the success of the x-47b doesn't reflect what the program might look like if we go for a high end uav. x-47b was simply a demonstrator for carrier usage. Building a actual operational high end uav would face the same challenges and the cost overrun and delays as all recent high end manned aircraft effort (though slightly less as flight testing isn't as vigorous as manned aircraft). That's the driving force behind some in the navy wanting to dump down requirements. Repeatedly, the navy has had its ass handed to them by whatever the secretary of defense at the time whenever they tried to get something meaningful on the carriers deck. It only makes sense they are scared now.

To me the choosing of the super hornet over the A/F-X marked the end of true American Naval ambition - the shift from "let's get what we really want" to "let's settle with something that won't get cut."
 
More stealth = More money. And there's only one place to find that money in NavAir budgets.
 
LowObservable said:
More stealth = More money. And there's only one place to find that money in NavAir budgets.
God forbid we cut the exorbitant amount we're paying for entitlements in order to properly fund a military.
 
donnage99 said:
Building a actual operational high end uav would face the same challenges and the cost overrun and delays as all recent high end manned aircraft effort (though slightly less as flight testing isn't as vigorous as manned aircraft).

My guess is that flight testing a UAV will require less effort than a manned aircraft will be proven to be as fallacious as the prediction that software-driven flight control systems would be much quicker and less expensive to modify (develop and fix) than mechanical ones. At least the latter wasn't the case on the XV-15 (mechanical) versus V-22 (fly-by-wire) programs in my personal experience. Note that some (most?) of the advanced UAV designs crashed early on in flight test; crash investigation and replacement of air vehicles is time consuming and expensive.
 
LowObservable said:
More stealth = More money. And there's only one place to find that money in NavAir budgets.

E-2D, P-8, MQ-4C, Super Bug, F-35, MH-60R, MH-60S, V-22, MQ-8, H-1, H-53, KC-130J ??
 
Ian33 said:
If the USN wants only a permissive environment UAV, why the whole effort of the J-UCAS (Yeah I know it split so the USAF could go their own way) but really? nothing better than launching a Reaper off a carrier? That's not progress or a value for money exercise in my humble opinion.

The operative phrase here is "...USN wants...". Maybe it's not what USN "wants" as much as what they were told to take (it's happened before). When the dumbing down of UCLASS was announced it clearly caught a lot of people in NAVAIR by surprise and was quite controversial. With truly humble mien I wold like to refer to my opining on this subject here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16346.msg214463.html#msg214463
 
F-14D said:
The operative phrase here is "...USN wants...". Maybe it's not what USN "wants" as much as what they were told to take (it's happened before). When the dumbing down of UCLASS was announced it clearly caught a lot of people in NAVAIR by surprise and was quite controversial. With truly humble mien I wold like to refer to my opining on this subject here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16346.msg214463.html#msg214463

Oh man... the USN is in a whole world of hurt if its a three way furball. The F-35 lobby should be mega happy that there will be a second strike element with them that can take off some of the heat. I know, naïve I know, but seriously? I'd want to pack the deck with enough power to take on any threat, not just little brown men running round in the sand.
 
Ian33 said:
F-14D said:
The operative phrase here is "...USN wants...". Maybe it's not what USN "wants" as much as what they were told to take (it's happened before). When the dumbing down of UCLASS was announced it clearly caught a lot of people in NAVAIR by surprise and was quite controversial. With truly humble mien I wold like to refer to my opining on this subject here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16346.msg214463.html#msg214463

Oh man... the USN is in a whole world of hurt if its a three way furball. The F-35 lobby should be mega happy that there will be a second strike element with them that can take off some of the heat. I know, naïve I know, but seriously? I'd want to pack the deck with enough power to take on any threat, not just little brown men running round in the sand.

Personally, I don't give much credence to theory 1, just reporting it. Theory 2 is always in play and you can't discount 3. It's one thing to have non-survivable drones flying around potting individuals or small groups, it's a whole 'nother thing with a real deep strike capability. I note the quietly announced direction to the Navy to terminate Tomahawk production after this FY.
 
Raiding Medicare to pay for Uclass is a decision above Navair's pay grade, by a notch or two.


There is a combination of factors at work. Cost is one. Risk is another (Navy's history with LO, much less unmanned). Yes, reluctance to let the unmanned camel's nose inside the tent (Navy air has seen what happened to AF pilots) combined with the concern that a land-attack platform will get carriers diverted to support counter-terrorism one-off ops.
 
The program gets discussed briefly in this recent AW article in regards to the 2016 budget request.

Unmanned Carrier-Launched Surveillance and Strike (Uclass) Aircraft: The Navy’s decision on whether to move ahead with Uclass will be a strategic bellwether for the service’s ambitions in unmanned aircraft technology. The Navy has long sought a marriage of unmanned aircraft and the persistence and flexibility offered by aircraft carriers. Through Uclass, the Navy hopes to field a small number of unmanned intelligence-collecting aircraft on the carrier; eventually they would operate alongside F/A-18EFs and F-35Cs. Questions of whether to prioritize stealth over payload have plagued Uclass with delays. But, in the current fiscal environment, Pentagon officials are now wrestling not with how to proceed but whether to do so. Should the program move forward, bids are expected from Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, General Atomics and Boeing.

http://m.aviationweek.com/blog/10-things-watch-2016-budget-request
 
Really not looking good for this program.

Unmanned aviation fares poorly in R&D as spending on the Unmanned Carrier-Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike program drops $265 million to $138 million, and MQ-4C drops $271 million to $229 million. R&D for a new amphibious combat vehicle for the Marine Corps jumps $115 million to $219 million.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/policy-budget/budget/2015/02/02/navy-budget-request-2016-marine-corps/22735331/
 
Wouldn't be surprised if they canned it at this point, although a lower request could be a result of delaying everything including the RFP.
 
bring_it_on said:
Wouldn't be surprised if they canned it at this point, although a lower request could be a result of delaying everything including the RFP.

I wonder if they'll even get the RFP issued this year.
 
WASHINGTON, Feb 2 (Reuters) - The U.S. Navy on Monday said it would delay a competition for a new carrier-based unmanned strike and surveillance plane until fiscal 2016 to allow completion of a comprehensive review of requirements.

Rear Admiral William Lescher, deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for budget, told reporters during a budget briefing that the Navy had delayed its target for early operational use of the new unmanned planes until 2022 or 2023.

The Navy had hoped to kick off the competition for a new Unmanned Carrier-Launched Airborne Surveillance Strike (UCLASS) program last fall, but delayed the release of a request for proposals given affordability concerns and a Pentagon-wide review of intelligence and surveillance programs.

Companies expected to compete for the program are Northrop Grumman Corp, maker of the X-47B unmanned, unarmed plane that has already been tested on U.S. carriers, Boeing Co, Lockheed Martin Corp, and privately held General Atomics.

(Reporting by Andrea Shalal; Editing by Meredith Mazzilli)
 
"Navy Pushes UCLASS Fielding Date, Air Segment Request for Proposal"
By: Sam LaGrone
February 2, 2015 7:42 PM

Source:
http://news.usni.org/2015/02/02/navy-pushes-uclass-fielding-date-air-segment-request-proposal

PENTAGON – The Navy has pushed its planned fielding date for its carrier-based unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) from 2020 to 2022 or 2023, a Navy budget official told reporters in a late Monday afternoon briefing on the Navy’s Fiscal Year 2016 budget request to Congress.

In addition to the delay in initial fielding, the service has decided to push the request for proposal of the air segment of the Unmanned Carrier Launched Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) into Fiscal Year 2016 pending the completion of an ongoing Office of Secretary of Defense (OSD) comprehensive information, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) UAV review, said Rear Adm. William Lescher, the Department of the Navy’s (DoN) deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for budget.

“Work on the other UCLASS segments – such as the carrier segment and the control system and connectivity segment – associated programs of record – such as stand up of the integration labs and test facilities continues throughout the requirement and review process in order to reduce cost and mitigate overall program risk,” he said.

The Navy included a modest $135 million for research and development efforts for the program, a significant drop from the FY 2015 request of $403 million.

The previous UCLASS funding is shackled to legislation that require several studies and reports to Congress on the Navy’s intentions for the final platform.

The character of UCLASS – known internally to Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) as RAQ-25 – was hotly debated in the Pentagon and on Capitol Hill throughout last year.

The Navy’s plan called for a long range ISR platform that would operate while the aircraft carrier’s air wing was not flying with a limited ability for strike and could provide a much needed aerial refueling capability to the carrier air wing.

The service’s pitch was a shift from the original vision for a large carrier-based UAV that would extend the lethal reach of the carrier strike group with a stealthy penetrating strike aircraft with a weapon payload the equivalent of a F-35C Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

“The Navy may have made an appropriate set of trade-offs between costs and capabilities in deriving a set of requirements for UCLASS, but those trade-offs should be evaluated in the context of the overall CSG capability, not on the basis of individual capabilities of weapons systems or an unconstrained budget,” according to a report from the compromise 2015 defense legislation.

NAVAIR initially intended to issue the RFP – directly to Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, General Atomics and Boeing – for the entire UCLASS system in September of 2014 but that plan was paused pending the overarching OSD review.

Sean Stackley assistant secretary of the Navy for Research, Development and Acquisition (RDA), told reporters last month the ongoing OSD review had informed enough of the program to move ahead with the FY 2016 submission.

“We did an extensive portfolio review on unmanned – not just UCLASS – in the fall review as part of the budget process,” Stackley said.
“There’s more work to be done and that will continue on into this calendar year as we prepare for [2017 budget request].”
 

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