Optimized late 2020's USN (practical) Air Wing for CVN 68 & CVN 78 Class ships

[Ironmiked]

In theory, each of the the carriers can accommodate a maximum of 130 F/A-18 Hornet sized aircraft (Navy Aircraft Carriers: Cost Effectiveness of Conventionally and Nuclear-powered Carriers). History (early Midway Class air wings), cost, and current force structure limits today's airing size. The Super Hornet is 25% larger but the F-35 is similar in size and so is the MQ-25 Stingray. The first F-35 deployment is leading to suggestions of a 20 airframe "super-squadron." Those points made, is this a realistic air wing:
3 x 12 F/A-18 E/F Supper Hornets Squadrons
1 x 20 F-35C Squadron (increase from current 12)
1 x 12 E/A-18 Growler Squadron (increase from current 8)
1 x 10 MQ-25 Tanker Squadron (increase from planned 6)
1 x 8 E-2D (increase from 5 to 6)
1 x 4 CMV-22 detachment
2 x 10 SH/MH-60 helo Squadrons (ASW, Sea Control, Vert-rep, etc.)

Total 90 Fixed wing plus helicopters. Near typical 1980's air wing size. The only thing missing is the S-3 Viking for ASW and Sea Control missions, which would replace one rotary wing squadron if a similar platform existed in the inventory today. Is this realistic and achievable? This air wing will have greater range and capability to bridge the time until the F/A-XX begins to replace the Super Hornet with a new platform having greater speed, endurance, and payload.

 

[sferrin]

Need to throw in some ASW V-22s (if they ever get around to making one).

 

[isayyo2]

The 20 plane “super squadron” seems like such a bandaid, I wonder if there aren’t enough experienced officers fill out two 10 plane squadrons?

Korean War era VF squadrons were around 16 planes and subsequently shrunk down as time went on.

 

[Ironmiked]

In the 80's there were usually12 plane squadrons. I'd love two 12 jet F-35 squadron to pair with the 36 Super Hornets + Growlers.

 

[timmymagic]

Just for reference these are the CVW composition slides from the Tailhook conferences.

First slide from 2019..

Re-jigged 2030 envisioned air wing from 2021, this has 16 F-35C (with a corresponding 4 a/c increase in SuperHornet) but there is talk since of 20 F-35C, in numbers the same as 2019, but in a single squadron...the way I read the 'flex' in some aircraft categories (e.g. MH-60, MQ-25 and EA-18G) is that these are tailored to the AO/Mission of the ship, threat and availability of resources. Don't think these could be maxed for all ships either as a result of available aircraft and space on the ship for efficient operations i.e. you could max the EA-18G and MQ-25 for an AO where those assets are at a premium, but you'd have to accept a smaller number of MH-60 onboard as a result.
To note the 'disperse' MH-60 are not included and no mention of AIM-260...

 

[H_K]

Total 90 Fixed wing plus helicopters. Near typical 1980's air wing size

Hello gridlock!

That proposed air wing is *much* larger than the 1980s air wings and is a non starter, even before one considers the trend towards smaller air wings with higher sortie rates.

To do this correctly, you have to look at spot factors and density factors, not just aircraft numbers:

Spot factor (F/A-18C =1.0)
F/A-18C 1.0
F-8E 1.08
F-4J 1.24
F/A-18E 1.24
F-14 1.32
F-35C 1.16
F-111B 1.53

A-7 0.85
A-6 1.2
EA-6B 1.23
S-3 1.25
E-2C 1.71
MQ-25 1.1 (estimated)
CMV-22 1.21 (estimated)

SH-60 0.51
SH-3 0.70

Maximum density spot (CVN-68)
157 A-7s
130 F/A-18Cs
112 F-35Cs
105 F/A-18Es

However the above is purely a theoretical exercise (see pictures below). In practice the realistic maximum operational density is roughly 70-75% of this number, i.e.

91 to 97 F/A-18Cs
78 to 84 F-35Cs
74 to 79 F/A-18Es

(The max density used to be 75-80% during the Cold War but the current optimal density is now lower in order to increase sortie rates). In fact the 2025 CVW in the slide posted by @timmymagic has a density of only ~65%.

The density of the air wing you’re proposing is… 92% (!). To get it down to 70-75%, you’d have to cut it down to:

36 F/A-18E / EA-18G (-12)
20 F-35Cs
10 MQ-25
5 E-2D (-3)
4 CMV-22
10 MH-60 (-10)

In other words today’s super carriers max out at around 70-75 fixed wing (plus ~10 helos on top of that).

 

[Ironmiked]

Three articles worth further consideration:​

• Three Takeaways From the US Navy's First F35C Deployment https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...ays-from-the-us-navys-first-f-35c-deployment/
• A Generational Change in Naval Aviation Has Begun Amidst Tight Budgets, Fighter Gaps https://news.usni.org/2022/03/24/a-...n-has-begun-amidst-tight-budgets-fighter-gaps
• RETREAT FROM RANGE - The Rise and Fall of Carrier Aviation https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/194448/CNASReport-CarrierAirWing-151016.pdf

Overall, I recognize the Air Wing I proposed might be a a little too big. However, I think we need to take advantage of every possible opportunity to increase the power projection capabilities of the carrier air wings. Thanks for the very informative feedback.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Overall, I recognize the Air Wing I proposed might be a a little too big. However, I think we need to take advantage of every possible opportunity to increase the power projection capabilities of the carrier air wings. Thanks for the very informative feedback.

The question is whether you're planning for a single massive strike, or many smaller strikes throughout the day. A single massive strike using most of the aircraft in a single go can use a larger air wing than many smaller strikes.

 

[Hydroman]

My hypothetical (and future) CVN Air Wing mix:
F-35C
F/A18 E/F
F/A-XX
LO Strike Platform (High Speed)
VLO Strike Platform (NG ATA Type)
MQ-25
E-2X (evolved E-2)
V-22 or Naval V-280 (COD)
New Helo Type (Plane Guard)

The above may be too much but right now, too many F/A-18s and no F-35Cs deployed on recent CVN-78 deployment, not a good mix, no attack/strike.

 

[Scott Kenny]

My hypothetical (and future) CVN Air Wing mix:
F-35C
F/A18 E/F
F/A-XX
LO Strike Platform (High Speed)
VLO Strike Platform (NG ATA Type)
MQ-25
E-2X (evolved E-2)
V-22 or Naval V-280 (COD)
New Helo Type (Plane Guard)

Remember that the F/A-XX is intended to replace Super Hornets, which means it will also have some level of LO/VLO strike built in. Depending on how they put together the Loyal Wingman drone systems, that could mean an unmanned aircraft as the striker, or the F/A-XX will have some strike capabilities with a drone providing most of the heavy lifting.

I do NOT see four different aircraft on the decks for that job. Three max (F-35C, F/A-XX, and LW drone), two more likely (F-35C and F/A-XX).

The V-280 is more likely to be the plane guard than the COD, the V-280 is too small to carry an F-135 engine in the container.

Side note: you should add an ASW plane to that list. Whether refurbed S-3s, SV-22s, or just drones.

The above may be too much but right now, too many F/A-18s and no F-35Cs deployed on recent CVN-78 deployment, not a good mix, no attack/strike.

The USN has been suffering from a lack of strike packages since the failure of the Avenger.

 

[Hydroman]

Remember that the F/A-XX is intended to replace Super Hornets, which means it will also have some level of LO/VLO strike built in. Depending on how they put together the Loyal Wingman drone systems, that could mean an unmanned aircraft as the striker, or the F/A-XX will have some strike capabilities with a drone providing most of the heavy lifting.

I do NOT see four different aircraft on the decks for that job. Three max (F-35C, F/A-XX, and LW drone), two more likely (F-35C and F/A-XX).

The V-280 is more likely to be the plane guard than the COD, the V-280 is too small to carry an F-135 engine in the container.

Side note: you should add an ASW plane to that list. Whether refurbed S-3s, SV-22s, or just drones.




The USN has been suffering from a lack of strike packages since the failure of the Avenger.

I should probably clarify, for strike I meant attack platforms which F/A-XX would not be, an LO F/A-18 replacement. USN totally embracing drones, maybe, have to see how MQ-25 works out. Even a single, manned LO attack-only platform would be great, maybe NG or LM working on one?

 

[Scott Kenny]

I should probably clarify, for strike I meant attack platforms which F/A-XX would not be, an LO F/A-18 replacement.

You do know that the F/A-XX is the LO replacement for the Super Hornet, right? F-35C is the replacement for the Legacy Bugs.

USN totally embracing drones, maybe, have to see how MQ-25 works out. Even a single, manned LO attack-only platform would be great, maybe NG or LM working on one?

With the cost of a pure-anything aircraft these days, I don't see any nation buying a dedicated attacker. There may be an argument for a pure interceptor if you have a huge country (See MiG-31 and successor), but no pure attacker outside an A-10 replacement (and even that may end up as a Reaper/Mojave drone instead of manned).

 

[paralay]

Using the example of an American aircraft carrier, we find how many resources account for one kilogram of dryweight of a deck aircraft. F/A-18C/D aircraft, empty weight 11.34 tons, air group of 80 aircraft.11.34 t * 80 pieces = 907.2 t

flight deck area 18450 sq.m : 907.2 t = 20.33 sq.m /t
hangar area 7781 sq.m : 907.2 t = 8.58 sq.m/t
the area of lifts 1000 sq.m : 907.2 t = 1.1 sq.m/t
Displacement (full) 104000 t : 907.2 t = 115
The weight of aviation fuel 11064 t : 907.2 t = 12.2
Ammunition weight 1954 t : 907.2 t = 2.15
Other aviation stocks 13046 t : 907.2 t = 14.4
The crew of the ship 3200 people : 907.2 t = 3.53 people /t
The air staff of the ship 2480 people : 907.2 t = 2.73 people / t
Starting positions 4 : 907.2 t = 0.0044 pcs /t

 

[Hydroman]

You do know that the F/A-XX is the LO replacement for the Super Hornet, right? F-35C is the replacement for the Legacy Bugs.


With the cost of a pure-anything aircraft these days, I don't see any nation buying a dedicated attacker. There may be an argument for a pure interceptor if you have a huge country (See MiG-31 and successor), but no pure attacker outside an A-10 replacement (and even that may end up as a Reaper/Mojave drone instead of manned).

You know we had A-6's and A-7's and they were very effective attack aircraft and of course I know that the F/A-XX is replacing the E/F's. There will be too many multi-role F/A-type aircraft on the CVNs. Since the A-12 debacle, it seems the USN forgot what a real attack aircraft is, we do not have a good mix any longer on our decks, strike fighters cannot do it all. Unmanned platforms, no XQ-58 production yet, Boeing Loyal Wingman when? GA cannot sell any Avenger C's, Reapers and Mojave's cannot replace an A-10 mission. It took decades for the USN to get its first LO aircraft and MQ-25 we'll see. When I was on CVN-65 in the 80's, great mix of platforms.