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Author Topic: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition  (Read 40060 times)

Offline carolm

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Another difficult assignment.....does anyone have any pics of the A-4 SkyHawk that was modified for the U.S. Army CAS aircraft competition? It had I believe, double wheels to land on soft grassy fields.

The VA (L) was mentioned in the A-6 thread as having a TF30 turbofan equipped A-4. Does anyone have any pics of this??

 

Offline Antonio

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2007, 09:13:04 am »
Hi Carol,

I've got that Army A-4 pic, just let me come back home and I'll post it ;)

Cheers

Antonio

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2007, 09:32:27 am »
As for the TF-30 engined version, it was designated A4D-6. Must look in the AW&ST collection to see if some drawing has been published.

Offline TinWing

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2007, 09:48:36 am »
As for the TF-30 engined version, it was designated A4D-6. Must look in the AW&ST collection to see if some drawing has been published.

I do have to wonder why a project that came so close to production would be so obscure?

I also have to wonder if the A4D-6 bore any relation to the 1958 vintage A4D-4, which had a longer fuselage and a larger area, swept wing with folding?

Here is the link to the early, but equaly unbuilt, A4D-4's specifications and characteristics:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/A4D-4_SkyhawkSAC-581114.pdf
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 09:54:36 am by TinWing »

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2007, 10:06:01 am »
The sources says that airframe was "larger", and this undoubtable considering the diameter of the TF-30. Someone also says  that the A4D-6 was bound to enter production without competition and was Vought who threw up the table and almost "forced" a formal competition that became the VA(L). Douglas submitted  the A4D-6 and lost.. All in all was something embarassing for a lot of people.... ::)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2007, 11:12:46 am »
From the pictures that appeared in WAPJ some years back, the Army version had twin main wheels with a fairing in front of the protruding tire on each side.  It would be interesting to model this one alongside the competing VZ-12 (pre-Kestrel P.1127).

Offline Antonio

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2007, 01:35:47 pm »
Thank you very much for the A4D-4 Tinwing :D

And here is the "Army Skyhawk" pic from US Army Aircraft Since 1947. Stephen Harding. Airlife. ISBN 1-85310-102-8.

according to the text the machines tested in the "fly-off" were:

Fiat G-91
Northrop N-156
A4D Skyhawk

The VZ-12 is not mentioned, what's your source Evan?.

Quote
From the pictures that appeared in WAPJ some years back
Quote
Evan, could you please tell me which number is that WAPJ issue?

Thanks


Offline Skybolt

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2007, 01:51:30 am »
I can confirm the G-91. Somewhere I have a picture with the "Gina" with US insignia.

Offline Antonio

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2007, 02:22:49 am »
Test aircraft was a German Built G.91R-3 and US Army found it very capable to fulfill the role. The story and a couple of pics with full US Army markings can be found in the indispensable "US Army Aircraft since 1947".

Offline zimmerlip

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2007, 07:20:16 am »
Anyone else out there who thinks the 1947 Key West Agreement needs to be abrogated?  If the Army had its own integral CAS - besides the highly-capable helicopters - able to maintain commitment and familiarity with the ground units to the same level as Marine Corps CAS, American efforts might be more effective in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Not to denigrate the Air Force's CAS, which has been excellent, but commitment is the big key.  When your "roomie" is in trouble, you tend to bend the envelope a little more trying to get that unit some help.  To have something capable of carrying a pair of thousand-pound bombs on instant call would be a bit more comforting to unit commanders.
-- Paul

"Airplanes suffer from so many technical faults that it is only a matter of time before any reasonable man realizes that they are useless!"
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2007, 10:15:50 am »
Thank you very much for the A4D-4 Tinwing :D

And here is the "Army Skyhawk" pic from US Army Aircraft Since 1947. Stephen Harding. Airlife. ISBN 1-85310-102-8.

according to the text the machines tested in the "fly-off" were:

Fiat G-91
Northrop N-156
A4D Skyhawk

The VZ-12 is not mentioned, what's your source Evan?.
From the pictures that appeared in WAPJ some years back
Quote
Evan, could you please tell me which number is that WAPJ issue?

Thanks



Well, the World Air Power Journal article on the Harrier is where I saw it (don't remember the number offhand), but such particpation does explain a few things - like US Army participation in the Kestrel TriPartite Evaluation Squadron and where Northrop developed an interest in the P.1127 and derivatives (as part of the agreement for the USMC to buy the Harrier, Northrop had to transfer their US license for the P.1127 and derivatives to McDD).  The WAPJ article even included the serial numbers assigned.  Mind you, I suspect this entry was primarily a paper one, but it was a serious one as far as can be told.  I believe TSRJoe has pictures of a manufacturer's display model on the pre-Kestrel P.1127 in US Army markings.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 10:25:03 am by overscan »

Offline Archibald

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2007, 01:51:44 am »
In Summer 2000, le fana de l'aviation had a cool article on the AH-56 Cheyenne. Talking about the events which led to the AFFS program, they mention the testing of F-5, G.91 and Skyhawks by the Army.
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2007, 02:29:43 am »
If I remember well, all the AX program(s) were started by the Air Force to fend off the threat of the Army going alone once more.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2007, 01:28:27 pm »
Browsed the AW&ST collection around the announcement of the winner of VA(L). No drawing of the losers  :'(, but some interesting snippets of information on other topics   :D .. I'll post elesewhere.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Advanced A-4 SkyHawks: USN VA (L) and for the U.S. Army CAS competition
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2007, 01:53:11 pm »
A bit of topic I know...

The Army wanted the Cheyenne. Alas, for USAF, small wings of the AH-56 meant this was an aircraft... no way, USAF will assume CAS alone.

The Cheyenne was selected over the Sikorsky S-66. Sikorsky nevertheless kept on its studies, and built a prototype of what become the AH-3 on private funds.

The Cheyenne program proved troublesome, so an interim machine was bought, the AH-1 Cobra.

USAF was still decided to assume CAS alone, so a fixed wing CAS aicraft program was launched, the A-X. with two competitors! YA-9 and YA-10

When the AH-56 program ended in disaster, a review of existing helicopters was made. Neither the AH-56, AH-3 nor AH-1 fulfilled US Army requirements.

so another program was launched, again with two competitors (AH-63 and AH-64).

The Apache won in 1975.

how machines, helicopters, prototypes and aircrafts (what a mess! ) in the end ?  :o

AH-56 (the one the Army wanted... at the beginning)
AH-1 (the interim machine...still in service. 40 years later  ;D)
S-67 (AkA Black Hawk, Aka AH-3) (derivative of a former AH-56 competitor, private venture)
A-10 (fixed wing, USAF CAS)
YA-9 (fixed wing, USAF CAS. Loser)
AH-64 (AH-56 replacement).
YAH-63 (AH-56 replacement. Loser)

7 machines
;D

Good thing is, with such number of machines, all aircraft / helicopter / compound combinations  has been explored.

Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_