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Author Topic: MiG-29 Avionics  (Read 42788 times)

Offline Zeka_Peka

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2018, 06:47:09 pm »
Hi there,

I have some dumb situation to solve.

I come from another forum. We debate the performance of MiG-29 radar. I am generally satisfied with the level of understanding several other members debating this issue display, and yes, we have the manual. Back in my days I had no problem with the manual, yes it demands some knowledge prior to reading, but nothing too demanding.

Currently we are having an exchange with some troll, who claims that MiG-29 radar after launching R-27R performs both scanning (search) of airspace for other targets while guiding R-27R on attacked one. As crazy as it sounds, but picture this - manual never says explicitly that radar lock have to be maintained until missile impact and that while that lock is maintained all other targets disappear (writers believe we already know that). Further manual is rather liberal in using terms such as "lock", tracking, automatic tracking, etc and *very liberal* in using word "regime" (eng. "mod") they describe a wide array of terms from real, selectable mods like "V" or "D" to some sub operations which system performs "behind the scene" i.e. invisible to the pilot and not shown anywhere like "mod" DNP. Add to this a host of people who are unsure what to believe and it is a perfect stage for an ambitious troll to do all kinds of logical and linguistic aerobatics. At one moment he used some data from "overscan's" avionics to support his claims which led me here.

I know the first thing you might say is that we are on poorly moderated forum - no doubts about that. I am sure "our" troll wouldn't last 24h here.

However things are, as they are, so I ask if there's any assistance you are able to provide? If not, a clear statement from Paul (Overscan) that such thing is impossible could also be of some help.

We have mostly used as "ammunition" "HUD" pictures from the manual and also "HUD" shots from some youtube videos. Cretin stated that HUD and HDD (IPV) show different pictures i.e. (while target is locked on HUD, radar searches on HDD  :-X ;D  :o)

Thanks




Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2018, 05:33:20 am »
It can't be done.

The technical training documents posted on the last page (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=102.0;attach=598409) clearly distinguish between:

1) Finding, detecting and determining the coordinates of targets, maintenance "on the pass" up to 10 targets with the continuation of air space search.
2) Continuous tracking of one target with accurate measurement of its coordinates without overview of the air space.
3) Discrete-continuous illumination of the attacked target with the formation and transmission of radio correction commands.

When you engage tracking mode, you designate the target (or it is autoselected for you), then the radar stops scanning for targets, and focuses purely on the single target.  The "on-the-pass" mode simply doesn't give enough detail quickly enough to accurately calculate launch parameters or formulate course correction commands for the R-27R missile.

Now, it's possible that the Ts100 processor could continue predict the other, non-tracked targets motion based on the last known direction and speed, but again the accuracy of these measurements in "on-the-pass" mode is quite low so it would probably not be terribly accurate. The only way to 100% disprove this would be testimony of a MiG-29 pilot or a video showing the radar in operation.  I don't think it's likely - I would expect tracking the target gives it quite enough to do for such a relatively crude computer.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 05:37:08 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2018, 05:47:30 am »
  • Search, Detection, rough measurement of coordinates and determining the nationality of air targets during the inspection airspace.
  • Support "on the pass" (SNP) to 10 targets, their ranking on the predicted time of meeting with the target, the issuance of recommendations for selecting the target for the attack.
  • Tracking of one attacked target with precise definition of coordinates, aiming for her impression, targeting the heads of missiles and preparing them for launch.
  • Calculation of the launch zone , the issuance of a command to start, illuminating the target, formation and transmission of radio correction commands.
  • Exit the attack.






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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2018, 05:55:16 am »
Maximum error in target range measurement in SNP  mode: ≤4 km.
Maximum error in measurement of range with tracking in DRB  mode ≤0.2 km
Maximum error in measurement of range in BMB (close combat mode) ≤0.05 km.
Maximum error in measurement of speed when tracked in DRB and BMB  modes ≤ 10 m / s.
Maximum error in determination of direction when tracked in DRB and BMB modes ≤0.25 °
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2018, 06:05:45 am »
- an overview of the airspace for the search and identification of air targets, the rough definition of their coordinates and parameters of motion and the establishment of state affiliation with the help of an airplane radar requestor;

- escort of the target chosen for attacking the target in range, direction (monopulse method) and speed with an accuracy that is sufficient for aiming and targeting conjugated systems;

- illumination of the target and the transfer of commands for radar correction to missiles from the CSG.

Additional modes:

- Accompanying the method "on the passage" of several identified goals.

- transition from airspace survey to target tracking with DRB;

- Accelerated search and target identification, targeting target channels in the BMB (VERTICAL mode).
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 06:09:05 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2018, 12:47:20 am »
Does anyone have a photo on the "mysterious"  Soyuz radar ? The one from the Soyuz programme headed by NPO Istok ..

It appears so.

https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2464223&extra=page%3D2%26filter%3Dtypeid%26typeid%3D156

Quote
80 years of the Soviet Union was the best radar, but not the rank and file charges later NIIP meal or two, but Istok СИНТЕЗ series of radar, then When the radar is successfully developed, it can be said that the above two streets are smashed!
 
The radar sample and the photos of the experiment at that time, the general situation of the aircraft modified with Figure-128 is that the Soviet airborne radar development was monopolized by Fazoton and NIIP, similar to the current 14 and the thunder and lightning yard pattern, NPO Istok provided them with microwave devices, but in the mid-1970s, with the support of Shaojin, the father of the Soviet microelectronics industry, Istok cooperated with the Pennant Design Bureau, which developed the missile seeker at that time, to ?Союз – Синтез Name the development of a new type of airborne radar (Shao Jin was very dissatisfied with the Soviet Union 's rigid system at the time, leading to the backwardness of Soviet electronic technology, encouraging innovation, so they dared to engage in this plan ). The radar project started in the mid-1970s, which is the "Myech" airborne radar project in the Su-27 project, because the lag of that project caused Simonov to overthrow the early design and restarted. Decided to encourage innovation and start a new generation of airborne radar. The most classic product they developed successfully was СИНТЕЗ-10, probably in the mid-1970s. In the process of developing this airborne radar, Istok used its own technological advantages to create “multi-beam” transparency in the world. Technology such as traveling wave tube, ultra-low noise small electrostatic discharger and three-dimensional large-angle antenna hydraulic system. In the development of airborne radar, the first result in the Soviet Union was obtained: based on Soviet domestic components. The airborne radar with programmable digital signal processing function was developed. When the airborne radar was tested for flying, the trajectory processing method was used in the "target search" state to verify the calculated value of the target discovery distance. The target area of ​​the square meter is more than 200 kilometers away; the ground is real-time imaged with a synthetic aperture antenna with a resolution of 7 meters.

This radar code is "synthesis", which means the experimental synthetic aperture technology. The radar is designed and tested successfully in the 80s, but the radar itself is advanced in technology. Unfortunately, the radar is too advanced and exceeds the design requirements of the Soviet Air Force.(!? Really, the Soviet Air Force feels too advanced and a little uncomfortable), and more importantly, it touched the breasts of the two old big companies, and it’s not fun (like today’s domestic, halfway to kill a bite, Changhong) Also said that the airborne radar, 14 and the Thunder and Light Institute is not good.) Under the system at that time, it was put on the shelf and was blocked. Later, Istok was no longer involved in airborne radar. Later, Istok went to China to sell products and technology, which revealed this inside story, but at that time, the domestic cooperation with Fazoton did not happen.
 
According to the decision of the government military committee, Istok developed the development of airborne radar. The most sophisticated electronic products were developed and produced in the electronics industry's enterprises – airborne radar for the new generation of fighters.
       The "Синтез-10" airborne radar was successfully tested for the flight test.
       In the process of developing airborne radar, the world first created:
       - multi-note "transparent" traveling wave tube;
       - ultra-low noise small electrostatic discharger;
       - three-dimensional large-angle antenna hydraulic system, scanning speed 300 degrees / sec, acceleration 3000 degrees / second 2.
       In the "Синтез-10" airborne radar development process, the former Soviet Union for the first time and obtained the following results:
       - Component made entirely based on airborne radar developed with a programmable digital signal processing function;
       - the onboard When the radar is tested for flying, the trajectory processing method is adopted in the "target search" state, and the calculated value of the target discovery distance is confirmed. For the target with a reflection area of ​​5 square meters, the distance is more than 200 kilometers;
       - using the synthetic aperture antenna to the ground Real-time imaging was performed with a resolution of 7 meters.
The main combination of airborne synthetic aperture radar:
       - Antenna. The X-band flat slot single-pulse antenna uses a unique salt bath welding process. The antenna has a diameter of 960 mm, a thickness of 50 mm and a weight of 13 kg. The antenna gain is greater than 37.5 dB within 6% bandwidth, and the far side lobe rms value does not exceed -50 dB.
       - Transmitter. The modular multi-mode wideband transmitter uses a high-power multi-injection "transparent" traveling wave tube amplification chain with an output pulse power of 3.5 kW.
       - Signal preprocessor. The programmable signal preprocessor can perform 512-point fast Fourier transform in 340 microseconds with an instantaneous dynamic range of 90 dB and a sidelobe level of minus 60 dB.
       - Radar signal processor. The radar signal processor uses a single board machine with a processing speed of one million times per second.

Due to the high cost and complicated technology, the  Soviet high-level finally chose the old but lower cost N001, N019 as the configuration of su27 and MiG-29, N001 even after 2010, equipped with Russian SU30M2
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2018, 12:53:29 am »
Now, the NIIP version of this story is that the USSR simply could not produce reliably the planar array antenna for Myech at that time, which led to the Myech borrowing the N019 antenna as a stop gap. It seems likely that two major factors against Istok's radar would have been cost and difficulty of production.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline stealthflanker

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2018, 04:57:36 am »
Great Job Paul, for finding the image.

I emailed GRPZ Ryazan, which supposedly manufactured the prototype for the same purpose but to no avail. but finally.  it's available.

again. excellent work. Thanks.

Offline Zeka_Peka

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Re: MiG-29 Avionics
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2018, 11:54:49 pm »
Thanks  :)

SNP - the closest English equivalent is "escort while pass" - it gives rough position (up to 4 km error as you have said), but deals with closure dynamics - ie: If you have A-10 flying towards you at 500km/h at the distance of 22km and 5km after it B-1B flying at 1020km/h, system shall conclude B-1B shall "surpass" A-10 and shall recommend B-1B for locking up.

"Now, it's possible that the Ts100 processor could continue predict the other, non-tracked targets motion based on the last known direction and speed"

That's the feature of the Foxhunter, I would love very much if you can re-upload mode photos on its page.

 :)