TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Trident]

Forward landing gear leg landing light for example.

You're right, for whatever reason the aircraft has clearly been mirrored, and it's also been pasted onto a different background (since that is not mirrored). But it's still a genuine photo of the aircraft in the air (note condensation due to flow separation from AoA behind the lower intake lip).

 

[Titus]

View attachment 720897

Shouldn't GE be on this list?

 

[siegecrossbow]

Shouldn't GE be on this list?

This appears to be a list for domestic companies but I could be wrong since I just glanced at the names.

 

[Lacy]

This appears to be a list for domestic companies but I could be wrong since I just glanced at the names.

true. The CEO has said that the engines, the side-stick, the ejection seat and a few valves are of foreign origin. The rest are completely Turkish. So GE, Martin Baker and the Spanish company they buy the side-stick from should be on the list, too. Maybe BAE systems too since they helped with the design of the aircraft in the preliminary phase.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Its actually remarkable how few foreign items are used - shows the breadth of capability in Turkish aerospace industries. If they can design and produce engines for Kaan even in the 4th gen F110 class that would be truly impressive.

 

[Waterballoon]

To prevent this from occurring, the engine was programmed to raise Idle speed to Mil power above 1.4M.

For the F-15 and F-16, 1.4M was the speed where spread reached its minimum and the engine was maintained at Mil power to prevent dropping below that minimum corrected airflow. When the corrected airflow drops below the minimum, the normal shock is pushed forward out of the throat, and pressure recovery drops abruptly. With the pressure behind the throat decreased, the airflow in the inlet is momentarily increased, the shock is swallowed, pressure recovery increases, airflow drops below minimum, and the process repeats, many times per second. This is inlet buzz, and it can be very damaging to both the airframe inlet structure and the engine.

Interesting. It has been stated several times that TAI wants to make the Kaan supercruise at Mach 1,4. Perhaps it has to do with this phenomenon of inlet buzz.

 

[F119Doctor]

The only connection is that if you can supercruise at M1.4 or higher, and you cannot reduce the power below Mil power at M1.4 without inducing inlet buzz, how do you slow down below M1.4?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Its actually remarkable how few foreign items are used - shows the breadth of capability in Turkish aerospace industries. If they can design and produce engines for Kaan even in the 4th gen F110 class that would be truly impressive.

Yes, I'm very impressed with this!

The only connection is that if you can supercruise at M1.4 or higher, and you cannot reduce the power below Mil power at M1.4 without inducing inlet buzz, how do you slow down below M1.4?

airbrakes, maybe?

 

[AE220]

TA just released a longer version of the official video

What's with the flanker style section between the engines? is there a sensor or drogue chute there?

 

[Scott Kenny]

What's with the flanker style section between the engines? is there a sensor or drogue chute there?

drogue chute right now for flight testing, will be sensor(s) in production aircraft.

 

[snne]

Interesting. It has been stated several times that TAI wants to make the Kaan supercruise at Mach 1,4. Perhaps it has to do with this phenomenon of inlet buzz.

In all my years following this subject, I don't think I've ever seen a figure being mentioned. We just know that supercruise is one of the key requirements but we have no idea at which speed its required to be. That's all we know.

 

[lnx476]

In all my years following this subject, I don't think I've ever seen a figure being mentioned. We just know that supercruise is one of the key requirements but we have no idea at which speed its required to be. That's all we know.

I also heard that Temel Kotil wanted him to fly 1.4M for Kaan. Can the KAAN make this flight without afterburner? And some say there will be problems such as inlet buzz. I think we need to look at the flight style of the F15 in this regard, but it has variable ramps.I'm wondering what the airflow will be like and if that will cause problems with the engine.

 

[TMA1]

To leapfrog to such a degree is incredible. I was skeptical as well at first. I strongly disagree with those who say that money should be spent in other ways. This kind of program and associated programs will only grow Turkey's sovereignty. I only fear pushback from natosphere powers who might start calling for some kind of sanctions. But with Russia being the massive threat and the new cold war I think Turkey can do things other NATO member states cannot do.

The fighter itself seems to symbolize that byzantine middle between europe and asia. Trying to fuse the best ideas from the west and east while making it their own.

 

[paralay]

We have the opportunity to estimate the speed of the fighter according to the parameter without afterburner thrust / on the frontal projection area
F-22 - 2557 kgf/m2
Su-57 - 2588 kgf/m2
TF-X - 1556 kgf/m2
To achieve a speed of M=1.5, an engine with a maximum thrust of 12780 kgf is required

 

[MadRat]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest KAAN designed a 1,000 mile range strike fighter, not another Air Dominance platform. And its shaping should give it a soft transonic boom. Even if it doesn't supercruise its going to be high endurance. All of Italy within range. Maybe all of Egypt and Iran, too.

The internal carriage I assume is aimed at 2,000 pounders.

 

[snne]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest KAAN designed a 1,000 mile range strike fighter, not another Air Dominance platform. And its shaping should give it a soft transonic boom. Even if it doesn't supercruise its going to be high endurance. All of Italy within range. Maybe all of Egypt and Iran, too.

The internal carriage I assume is aimed at 2,000 pounders.

 

[MadRat]

I realize that it said 1,000 there. But its overall size suggests otherwise.

 

[Waterballoon]

Look, I have seen the aircraft, plant, hangar, production etc and I can confidently say and state that aircraft is 20.2 meters and not 21

Do you remember other specifications?

 

[Radonislav]

View attachment 721003
View attachment 721004View attachment 721005View attachment 721006

Well that is really old

 

[Radonislav]

Do you remember other specifications?

Yes, won't share them

 

[siegecrossbow]

Why would they go to the length of adding an AIRST above the radome if it is not air optimized?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Why would they go to the length of adding an AIRST above the radome if it is not air optimized?

I mean, F-117s had a FLIR above the nose, but I fully expect the Kaan to primarily be a fighter, with a capability of attack. Like an F-14 "Bombcat", still primarily an air to air monster, and able to drop bombs if necessary (as opposed to a Hornet, which is an attacker that can dogfight)

 

[snne]

I mean, F-117s had a FLIR above the nose, but I fully expect the Kaan to primarily be a fighter, with a capability of attack. Like an F-14 "Bombcat", still primarily an air to air monster, and able to drop bombs if necessary (as opposed to a Hornet, which is an attacker that can dogfight)

Air to Ground-wise, even though it could technically haul a whole lot more, it can only carry Mk-83 kits/ Turkish SDB equivalent/SOM-J size munitions since the bays were designed accordingly. It has to switch to "beast mode" for a major ground attack mission.

When thinking of Kaan's potential, one has to basically imagine an F-22 with unique sensor fusion and open architecture capabilities. Fundamentally that is what TurAF has always wanted from TAI. I remember seeing a tweet from the ex-project manager who was in charge back when the concept deisgn was still being developed with Saab. Here's what he said:




Here's the tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658873130943672321

View: https://x.com/FatihSaritas1/status/1658873130943672321?s=20


This gives one plently of ideas to reflect upon...

 

[Scott Kenny]

Nothing wrong with wanting the F-22 reinvented, if you can make it.

And except for engines, I'd say that TAI is getting it made. (Plus, I'm not all that sure how different the F119s are compared to F110s)

 

[kqcke for you]

Nothing wrong with wanting the F-22 reinvented, if you can make it.

And except for engines, I'd say that TAI is getting it made. (Plus, I'm not all that sure how different the F119s are compared to F110s)

F119 are mutch longer but have a similiar weight and diameter. Way more trust (~40-50% more both dry and wet).

 

[Scott Kenny]

F119 are mutch longer but have a similiar weight and diameter. Way more trust (~40-50% more both dry and wet).

I mostly meant in terms of number of stages, or other significant improvements compared to an F110.

Or even variable cycle or adaptive stream weirdness.

Edit: because if the difference is in number of compressor stages and maybe the last stage or two is single-crystal castings, that's not a generational improvement over the F100/F110.

 

[donnage99]

Nothing wrong with wanting the F-22 reinvented, if you can make it.

And except for engines, I'd say that TAI is getting it made. (Plus, I'm not all that sure how different the F119s are compared to F110s)

I believe requirements for stealth is very conservative. The goal is reduced RCS within industry's technological capability.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I believe requirements for stealth is very conservative. The goal is reduced RCS within industry's technological capability.

Which, given nationalistic sentiments and bragging rights abroad, will probably be pushed as hard as they can get it.

Of course, the early stealth coatings are easily degraded, which is the major issue with the B-2s. (let's call those 2nd generation coatings for convenience).

Not sure where the F-22s coatings sit, but the F-35 traded lower cross section for easier to maintain and harder to damage.

So I'd guess that Kaan's coatings will be somewhere around B2 or F22 durability, F35 RCS.

 

[kqcke for you]

I mostly meant in terms of number of stages, or other significant improvements compared to an F110.

6 instead of 9 Stage HPC for the Compressor and only 1 Low pressure counterrotating turbine

Or even variable cycle or adaptive stream weirdness.

Thats YF120 stuff

Edit: because if the difference is in number of compressor stages and maybe the last stage or two is single-crystal castings, that's not a generational improvement over the F100/F110.

I look If i can find more specific stuff about it.

 

[snne]

I believe requirements for stealth is very conservative. The goal is reduced RCS within industry's technological capability.

From what I've seen so far, even from a realistic point of view, I fully expect the B10 aircraft that are to be delivered by 2028 to meet these requirements. There's a high chance that B20s (2030) can fall into VLO category.

By the way, i find it quite interesting that both TAI and Aselsan are working on different RAM paints. On a further note, from what I can gather, I believe they are using different materials as well.

This competition is actually pretty usual within Turkish defence industry. Whenever a company comes up with a new tech or product, two others immediately follow after.

 

[donnage99]

Not sure where the F-22s coatings sit, but the F-35 traded lower cross section for easier to maintain and harder to damage.

So I'd guess that Kaan's coatings will be somewhere around B2 or F22 durability, F35 RCS.

I used the term "reduced RCS" for a reason. The goal isn't full VLO or "stealth". Deft not in F-35 RCS category. At least not with current requirements.

Also, this is first time I've heard F-35's coating traded RCS performance for maintenance. F-35 RCS requirement is less stringent than f-22 but that has alot to do with many other things rather than the the quality of the coating itself. Can you cite a source?

 

[Scott Kenny]

I used the term "reduced RCS" for a reason. The goal isn't full VLO or "stealth". Deft not in F-35 RCS category. At least not with current requirements.

Also, this is first time I've heard F-35's coating traded RCS performance for maintenance. F-35 RCS requirement is less stringent than f-22 but that has alot to do with many other things rather than the the quality of the coating itself. Can you cite a source?

Not off top of my head.

 

[Radonislav]

I used the term "reduced RCS" for a reason. The goal isn't full VLO or "stealth". Deft not in F-35 RCS category. At least not with current requirements.

Also, this is first time I've heard F-35's coating traded RCS performance for maintenance. F-35 RCS requirement is less stringent than f-22 but that has alot to do with many other things rather than the the quality of the coating itself. Can you cite a source?

how did you end up with the conclusion of RO? RO is KF-21, SH, Su-57 and so on, not Kaan

 

[Radonislav]

The aircraft provides superior air dominance, increased air-to-air combat range with new weapons, precise and full hit from internal weapon bays at high, supersonic speed, with its "High Performance and Integrated Avionics System", which includes artificial intelligence and heterogeneous computing support.

TÜBİTAK-signed technologies, including the central management computer, avionic interface units, deterministic network, multi-core real-time operating system and middleware software, were used in KAAN's first flight.

The computer system, which is described as the brain of KAAN, was produced by TÜBİTAK Informatics and Information Security Advanced Technologies Research Center. The system was delivered to Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TAI) in 2022, ahead of the planned date. The avionics computer system has deterministic and high-speed communication infrastructures with safety-critical and high-performance processor modules. This computer performs critical aircraft management functions such as engine systems management, flight system management, and data processing and management functions of mission (communication, navigation, AESA radar, electronic warfare, electro-optical targeting and weapon) systems. Mission computers also produce images of main and helmet-mounted displays, which will reduce the pilot's workload.

Multi-core national real-time operating system was developed by TÜBİTAK BİLGEM. The system was made multi-core to meet KAAN's high computing needs and was used on the main management computers in KAAN's first flight.

TÜBİTAK BİLGEM included the "flight control and aircraft management computers", "central management computers", "mission management computers", "avionic interface units", "deterministic network", "flight control and aircraft management computers" used in KAAN's first flight. BİLGEM developed "high-speed network", "multi-core real-time operating system", "middleware".

In addition, TÜBİTAK BİLGEM also developed the EMC test system, which measures and analyzes the compatibility of all electronic systems on KAAN, and the "antenna test system" (NFRTF), which determines the geometry of KAAN and ensures the low radar cross-sectional area for the 5th generation stealth aircraft. produced.

TÜBİTAK Marmara Research Center (MAM) has developed "life support systems" for KAAN in order for combat aircraft pilots to continue their basic vital activities in conditions requiring high physical endurance, and "explosion prevention systems" to prevent explosions and fuel boiling in fuel tanks, considering the variable conditions of the combat aircraft. It will improve .

The institution also developed the "electromagnetic modeling and optimization of radar absorbing multilayer thin film surface coating (RASEM)" software to be used especially in the design processes of the canopy, in order to give KAAN's radar invisibility feature, and to give KAAN's air duct a low radar visibility feature. It implements the RASEM-RADOM software for the set designs, tests and measurements to be placed in the air duct, and the frequency selective electromagnetic design and optimization of the aircraft's radome to ensure the low visibility feature of KAAN on the radar.

TÜBİTAK products in KAAN

 

[Radonislav]

notable ASELSAN systems on Kaan:

ICNI (BÜHSET)

- Communication systems
- IFF systems
- Navigation systems
- ICNI antennas

BEOS (Integrated EO System)

- Karat-100 IRST
- Toygun-100 EOTS
- İRİS-300 IR SA and MWS (DAS is the most comparable thing)
- LİAS-300 LWS
- Yıldırım-300 DIRCM

- Tulgar HMD

- Kılavuz-40 INS

BÜRFİS (Integrated RF Systems)

-IRFS (EW, Intelligence systems and so on)
-AESA Radar/EW Subsystem
-CMDS

 

[Elysium]

Not sure where the F-22s coatings sit, but the F-35 traded lower cross section for easier to maintain and harder to damage.

Not sure if such trade off was made. Afaik the F-35s stealth works by sandwiching resonant layers between the composite polymer weaves which are infused with resin and baked together when the whole composite part is baked in the kiln.

It essentially is impossible to damage without damaging the whole structure, and due to it being structural, can be much thicker, thus more effective than any coating.

This is just speculation, but the resonant layers can be hooked up to sensors, essentially functioning as a giant antenna, or radar warning receiver as well.

Considering Turkey was a partner in the F35 program, I wouldn't be suprised if they mastered the tech.

 

[Waterballoon]

I've to correct myself. It seems the official figures given by TAI doesn't correspond with the actual size of the prototype. According to various sources I've gathered the Kaan has a length of 20,2 meters, a span width of 13,32 meters and a corresponding wing area of 70 square meters.

The length between the nozzles and radar array is now 16 meters with a theoretical empty weight of 16,8-17 tons which results in a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1,55 and a wing loading of 242 kg per square meters.

Sorry for all those who I've given a hard time.

 

[Radonislav]

I've to correct myself. It seems the official figures given by TAI doesn't correspond with the actual size of the prototype. According to various sources I've gathered the Kaan has a length of 20,2 meters, a span width of 13,32 meters and a corresponding wing area of 70 square meters.

The length between the nozzles and radar array is now 16 meters with a theoretical empty weight of 16,8-17 tons which results in a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1,55 and a wing loading of 242 kg per square meters.

Sorry for all those who I've given a hard time.

Ahaha, thats around right

 

[Waterballoon]

Ahaha, thats around right

Took me a while to figure out but some handy clues hidden in some youtube footage and magazines where the keys.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I've to correct myself. It seems the official figures given by TAI doesn't correspond with the actual size of the prototype. According to various sources I've gathered the Kaan has a length of 20,2 meters, a span width of 13,32 meters and a corresponding wing area of 70 square meters.

The length between the nozzles and radar array is now 16 meters with a theoretical empty weight of 16,8-17 tons which results in a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1,55 and a wing loading of 242 kg per square meters.

Sorry for all those who I've given a hard time.

1.55:1 empty?

Implies ~8 tons of fuel, for a T:W>1 at 50% fuel and carrying ~1.5t of weapons in the air to air role.