Your ultimate "What-if"

NOMISYRRUC

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One for @Archibald...

The biggest mistake in French Naval Aviation...

Building Clemenceau & Foch with hulls that were too small and lightly built. Instead build a pair of PA58s. More expensive to build and more expensive to run, but capable of operating twice as many of the same aircraft as the real world ships or about 40 aircraft in the Phantom & Buccaneer class.
This topic is veering dangerously close to wish-fulfilment fantasy. Perhaps a topic for The Bar?
I plead guilty as charged.
 

Archibald

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One for @Archibald...

The biggest mistake in French Naval Aviation...

Building Clemenceau & Foch with hulls that were too small and lightly built. Instead build a pair of PA58s. More expensive to build and more expensive to run, but capable of operating twice as many of the same aircraft as the real world ships or about 40 aircraft in the Phantom & Buccaneer class.
This topic is veering dangerously close to wish-fulfilment fantasy. Perhaps a topic for The Bar?
I plead guilty as charged.

Good idea, but alas - De Gaulle's Force de frappe decided otherwise... I'm slolwy realizing how much of a money pit it was for my country...
 

NOMISYRRUC

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Good idea, but alas - De Gaulle's Force de frappe decided otherwise... I'm slowly realizing how much of a money pit it was for my country...
That might not be a problem as Clemenceau was laid down in November 1955 and Foch in November 1957. De Gaulle didn't become president until June 1958.
 

Archibald

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And force de frappe afterwards.
Don't know why the Clemenceaus weren't made a little larger btw, you have a point.
 

Justo Miranda

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Focke-Wulf 1-TL Jäger Projekt I



Flying trials with the Messerschmitt Me 262 V2 prototype were conducted at the end of 1942. The test programme included high-altitude combat revealing unexpected compressibility effects during high-speed dives between 7,600 and 5,500 m. The Me 262 had been designed in 1940, before the aerodynamicists discovered the destructive effects associated with the transonic flux. The turbulent airflow generated in the junction between the engine nacelles and the wing under surface generated some tail plane buffeting and elevator flutter.

Like its predecessors, Bf 110 and Me 210, the Me 262 proved to be an easy prey in dogfight against the single-engine Allied fighters, demonstrating the correctness of the Latin sentence errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum. It was also expensive, requiring a lot of strategic materials during its construction and thrice man-hours that a standard Bf 109 G required. What the Luftwaffe needed in 1943 was a single-engine air-superiority jet fighter to replace the old ‘0-nine’, the only successful fighter built by the firm, whose basic design dated back to 1934.

Early in 1943, the Technisches Amt (RLM Technical Office) asked Messerschmitt if the Bf 109 G could be adapted to take one Jumo 004 turbojet. The answer was negative.
In fact, the firm had all the necessary resources to comply with the RLM requirement: using the wing of the Me 209 and the nose wheel of the Me 309, it would only have been necessary to design a new central wing section so that the attachment points of the undercarriage would not interfere with the jet exhaust. But the Sofortprogramm (interim solution) proposed by the RLM was contrary to the plans of Messerschmitt who at that time had already decided to continue the development of the Me 262. This situation gave the firm Focke-Wulf the opportunity to participate in the supplies of turbojets that until then had only been available for the Me 262 and the Arado Ar 234.

In February1943, the Bad Eilsen design team envisaged the study of several possible fuselage-turbojet-air intake configurations and their integration with different types of wings, tail surfaces and landing gears for the construction of a future single jet fighter. The simplest solution was to replace the BMW 801 radial engine of an Fw 190 by a Jumo turbojet, mounted under the nose to not altering the position of the centre of gravity of the aircraft. Unfortunately for the firm, the new engine turned out to be too long, so the jet nozzle would interfere with the retraction of the main wheels of the Fw 190. It was necessary to design a new type of wings capable of housing the mainwheels of 660 x 160 mm. The greater consumption of J2 heavy kerosene of the turbojet required the installation of two fuel tanks of 390 litres each in the fuselage, making necessary to advance the location of the cockpit 170 cm.

It was planned to mount two Mauser MG 151/20 cannons in the wing roots and two Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108/30 cannons under the cockpit floor. The Projekt I was introduced to the OKL in March 1943 as a realistic solution that would have allowed the Jagdwaffe to have an interceptor that would be faster than the Mustang, better armed than the Tempest and the Meteor and able to overcome the Thunderbolt in dive. It could have been mas manufactured by late 1944, but the Technisches Amt rejected the project claiming that the position of the turbojet (whose axis was located 86 cm lower than that of the BMW 801) would substantially decrease the rolling properties, and it was feared that the Jumo 004 would suffer serious damage at belly landing. Also taken into consideration was the risk that jet exhaust gases would cause damage to the tailwheel or burn the airfield surface.

In April 1946, the Soviets demonstrated with their Yak-15 that these precautions were unfounded. The new Yakovlev fighter was based on the same formula as the Projekt I and was powered by the same turbojet, being mass-produced and entering into service smoothly in May 1947.

The integration of the turbojet in the airframe of a Yak-3 piston fighter was relatively simple. It was only necessary to modify the wing spar central section, replace the tailwheel with another metal shield, protected by a blast deflector, and to cover the lower part of the fuselage with steel plates. The Soviets successfully used the same formula on the experimental prototypes Lavochkin La-152 (October 1946), La-156 (March 1947) and La-160 (June 1947), all propelled by copies of the Jumo 004. The Italians also used this aerodynamic solution in their prototypes Ambrosini Saggitario I (January 1953) and their first supersonic aircraft Aerfer Saggitario II (May 1956).



Technical data


Airframe: light alloy

Wing span: 10.33 m. Length: 9.8 m. Height: 2.6 m. Wing area: 16 sq. m.

Engine: one Jumo 109-004 B turbojet rated at 890 kp static thrust

Estimated maximum weight: 3,400 kg. Maximum speed: 780 kph. Ceiling: 12,000 m.

Estimated endurance: 35 minutes.

Armament: two MG 151/20 cannons with 175 rounds per gun (rpg) and two Mk 108/30 cannons with electro-pneumatic cocking, electrical firing and 70 rpg.
 

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Archibald

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Is it a serious project or a fantasy ? a jet-powered FW190 ??!!
 

Justo Miranda

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Real projects

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 TL


In the late 1930s, Max A. Mueller, engineer of the firm Junkers AG, patented a ducted-fan device that greatly improved the performance of the conventional propellers. In 1938, a team of technicians of the company BMW GmbH, under the leadership of Dr.-Ing. Hermann Oestrich, modified a Bramo 325 radial engine fitted with a four- bladed ducted-fan with a diameter of 1 m. The modified engine, that was named Motorjet, was installed in a trainer Focke-Wulf Fw 44 and successfully tested in flight by Hanna Reitsch.

In 1939, Max A. Mueller joined the Heinkel-Rostock team, working at the time on the development of the HeS 8 centrifugal turbojet, which was expected to be used to propel the He 280 fighters. With a planned thrust of 700 kp and a diameter 20 per cent shorter than the HeS 3, the new turbojet required a great research effort and an extensive test program. Numerous technical problems had to be solved before starting its large-scale production and the HeS 8 suffered numerous delays. By March 1941 it only produced 500 kp static thrust, 550 kp by early 1942 and 600 kp in early 1943.

The root cause was the reduction of the diameter, recommended by the aerodynamicists to minimize the drag produced by the engine nacelles when installed under the wings of the He 280. Trials experience revealed that the most effective way to increase thrust in this type of turbojets was to also increase their diameter, to improve the performance of the centrifugal compressor. In 1939, the HeS 3B, with 93 cm of diameter, produced 450 kp. In May 1941, the British Power Jets W.1, with 107 cm in diameter, produced 387 kp and in 1943, the De Havilland Halford H.1, with 127 cm in diameter, produced 1,225 kp static thrust. With this power, it was possible to build a single engine jet fighter, with the centrifugal turbojet installed inside the fuselage. In 1943, the British chose the Halford to propel their new fightersGloster E5/42 and De Havilland E6/41 ‘Vampire’. The Americans used the same turbojet to power the Lockheed XP-83 prototype, in early 1944.

In Germany, Max A. Mueller proposed to build the 'ZTL' version of the HeS 8, with a ducted-fan of 1 m diameter and a planned thrust of 900 kp. Focke-Wulf engineers also proposed to modify a HeS 8 to be used as a nose-mounted power plant in an Fw 190. The modification would consist of replacing the radial inflow turbine with another of 122 cm diameter and the exhaust nozzle by three outlets located underneath and on both sides of the cowling. The outlets were equipped with deflectors to prevent hot gases from damaging the airframe. The new turbojet, called T.1, would have had a thrust of 600 kp by the end of 1942.

The jet version of the Fw 190 A-3 was named ‘TL’ (Turbo Lader), would have had an overall length of 9.4 m, an estimated maximum weight of 4,865 kg and an estimated maximum speed of 850 kph. The ceiling was expected to be of 10,300 m and the range of 1370 km. Its endurance, with 1,400 litres of J2 heavy kerosene, would have been 70 minutes. As for the armament, would have consisted of two machine guns MG 17 and two MG 151/20 cannons in the standard positions.

In the spring of 1943, the OKL decided to cancel all research work with centrifugal turbojets to focus on the development of axial-flow type engines.
 

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Mirage4000

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1620255357148.png

F-23, operated on a secret program for a high speed stealth penetrator. 150 built
In 2010 the USAF acknowledged the operation of the stealthier F-23.

The 5 generation plus F-23 used in Syria in 2016, it shot down 2 Su-35s, Russia claimed accidents downed the Su-35.

It forms the basis for the new 6th generation fighter
 

Pioneer

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And force de frappe afterwards.
Don't know why the Clemenceaus weren't made a little larger btw, you have a point.
Archibald, I read somewhere the Clemenceaus's size was dictated by the then largest ship-building dock at the time...or something to that effect...
(I'll attempt to find it in detail!)

Regards
Pioneer
 

Archibald

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I've heard of that, too - but never got a convincing demonstration of it.
 

Grey Havoc

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The Charles de Gaulle also dearly suffered from much that same limitation, I believe (the infamous toolshed!).
 

Mirage4000

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1620339376644.png

Il-22

In 1947 Il-22 made its first flight.

1950 operated by North Korea was flown with limited success.
the Soviet Union built 800 from 1949 to 1955
Retired in1960.

1620339711407.png
Il-30 partially replaced Il-22 with only 200 built due to engine shortages, faired well during the Korean war in1950

7 samples were captured by US and UN air forces during the war.
Had rugged construction and primitive avionics.

Retired in 1958 in the Soviet Union
Built from 1950 to 1952

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Il-46

This early aircraft competed with Tu-16, It was selected for the naval forces of the Soviet Union
First flight 1952

Only 80 built

During its short carreer the Il-46 shown moderate reliability, but was not liked by its maintanance crews who thought its engines gave too much troubles
Retired in 1961 in the USSR

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Il-40 flown in 1953


It was built in low numbers to test the concept, only 200 built.
Operated in the arab Israeli war of 1956 by Syria it shown to be relatively successful, but due to the high losses suffered Ilyushin stopped its production in 1957,
Two varianst were built, the Il-40P was the most sucessful it destroyed 47 Israeli tanks.

retired in 1964 in the USSR and in 1962 in Syria
1620341310476.png

Built in 1954 and flown early in 1955, the Ilyushin Il-54 three-seat light tactical bomber was one of the first aircraft to receive Lyulka's AL-7 of 14,330 lb (6 500 kg) thrust. it became one of the best Soviet aircraft of the era, 657 were built, operated until 1970 by the USSR, exported to the soviet allies in limited numbers, North Vietnam used it to harrass naval US forces in 1967, 12 were downed by F-8 Crusaders from 1968 to 1970
 
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dannydale

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A different atmospheric density... move the entire world effectively up an extra 5km or down an extra 5km... see how the aerodynamics play out for the same rolls.
I really want to see this get explored further.
 

Archibald

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A different atmospheric density... move the entire world effectively up an extra 5km or down an extra 5km... see how the aerodynamics play out for the same rolls.
I really want to see this get explored further.

Mars is a bit like this: one half of the planet is 5 km higher, average, than the other. I remember reading a paper on Mars E-D-L (Entry, Descent, Landing) explaining that, with the thin and variable atmosphere they made such a difference, all probes up to MSL in 2012 could only land on the lower hemisphere. Trying to land on the other half would have the probe hitting the ground at near supersonic speed - instead of a smooth landing !
 

Archibald

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1620340669821.png

Look ma ! an aircraft with a snoot ! Seriously, it looks like a pig of aircraft : in both senses of the word LMAO

A more flattering comparison would be: BMW iconic trademark...
 
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Lascaris

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Dunno about ultimate. But I wouldn't mind the TL where the Greeks took up Dassault on that offer for a 20% industrial share of the whole Mirage F1 production instead of refusing it in 1971 only to order 40 straight from Dassault in 1974. And given this quite possibly means Mirage F1E wity M53 comes to being...
 

Archibald

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Now that's interesting ! Where did you got that info ? I usually bet on Leburton's (not Tindemans !) Belgium to kickstart the F1-M53 in the fall of 1973 (before The Netherlands steps in and makes F-16 domination unavoidable). But this Greek stuff is intriguing...

The French Air Force had bet on the Atar for its Mirage F1s, IOC early 1973. But they had plans to introduce M53 in the last batches as a low-end to the G8 (1969-72) and then the fixed wing ACF, although the latter was already extremely expensive. Getting the greeks onboard as early as 1971 could push the AdA to change the ratio of Atar/M53 F1s.

Next domino to fall may very well be the French Navy, once again before 1973 - after what the Super Etendard cannot be stopped. By 1971-72 they were realizing how much a dog would the Jaguar M be...

And after that: Belgium, here we go.
 
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Lascaris

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Now that's interesting ! Where did you got that info ? I usually bet on Leo Tindemans Belgium to kickstart the F1-M53 in the fall of 1973 (before The Netherlands steps in and makes F-16 domination unavoidable). But this Greek stuff is intriguing...

The French Air Force had bet on the Atar for its Mirage F1s, IOC early 1973. But they had plans to introduce M53 in the last batches as a low-end to the G8 (1969-72) and then the fixed wing ACF, although the latter was already extremely expensive. Getting the greeks onboard as early as 1971 could push the AdA to change the ratio of Atar/M53 F1s.

Next domino to fall may very well be the French Navy, once again before 1973 - after what the Super Etendard cannot be stopped. By 1971-72 they were realizing how much a dog would the Jaguar M be...

And after that: Belgium, here we go.
Greek Ptisi magazine several years ago. Ptisi (ie Flight) has been very reliable since it start publication nearly 4 decades ago. The US allowed the junta to buy Phantoms just in time to derail this but it shouldn't be very difficult to alter things slightly here. After all Greece did buy Mirage's anyway and was looking into them (Mirage III originally) since at least 1966-67 (can't remember when the Greeks test flew it without checking) to have an alternative source of equipment (the air force was not amused by delays in spare part deliveries during one of the crises over Cyprus at the time... the result is three generations of French warplanes in Greek service and I suspect FCAS if it happens to follow)
 

Lascaris

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Now that's interesting ! Where did you got that info ? I usually bet on Leo Tindemans Belgium to kickstart the F1-M53 in the fall of 1973 (before The Netherlands steps in and makes F-16 domination unavoidable). But this Greek stuff is intriguing...

The French Air Force had bet on the Atar for its Mirage F1s, IOC early 1973. But they had plans to introduce M53 in the last batches as a low-end to the G8 (1969-72) and then the fixed wing ACF, although the latter was already extremely expensive. Getting the greeks onboard as early as 1971 could push the AdA to change the ratio of Atar/M53 F1s.

Next domino to fall may very well be the French Navy, once again before 1973 - after what the Super Etendard cannot be stopped. By 1971-72 they were realizing how much a dog would the Jaguar M be...

And after that: Belgium, here we go.
And the actual source (in Greek of course) http://library.techlink.gr/ptisi/article.asp?mag=2&issue=154&article=3932 from September 1995.
 

isayyo2

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Thought I'd another stab at this after some really excellent posts above me!

North American Rockwell - Grumman F-14

Born from the disappointment of the F-111B program and lessons over North Vietnam the Navy launched its VFX program in 1968. However, due to escalating costs of the Vietnam War Congress directed the VFX program to only involve modifications of existing aircrafts. While this devastated Grumman's impressive Model 303, all was not lost. Teaming up with North American, Grumman grafted the forward fuselage of its model 303 onto the airframe of an A-5 Vigilante as a spitball idea; the kitbash received positive acclaim from executives and the Navy so further development proceeded. The single vertical stabilizer were replaced by a twin canted design that retained its all moving feature, the wing area was increased by 1/3 and introduced a large leading edge extension giving it a "double delta" look, wingtip launch rails were incorporated, landing gear was moved and strengthened, and its "bomb chute" was deleted with new GE F101 turbofans taking up further room. The belly fuselage was smoothed out to incorporate a modular "pallet" design for conformal carriage; with the typical load out of six AIM-54, however many weapons were incorporated such as four AGM-78, AGM-62, or a variety of Paveway LGBs and iron bombs. The modular belly carriage also had provisions for a variety of Recce and Electronic Warfare packages to supplement the outgoing RA-5C. The four wing pylons were retained and upgraded to a 3,000 pound limit specifically in mind for outsized future payloads.

The electronics set was mostly conjured from the F-111Bs development, Hughes supplied the AWG-9 radar which was further supported by the ALR-23 IR sensor and the ASB-19 television sight. The Hughes ASB-19 was modified with a 14x zoom, but still retained its full A-G capabilities. Both sensors were mounted on the chin and could slaved to the AWG-9 providing BVR recognition and navigation enhancements. With its large fuel capacity and higher bypass F101 engines, the F-14 could match the A-6s combat radius without refueling; the engines also featured Rohr thrust reversers. When operating without underwing ordnance, the slippery F-14 could exceed mach one without reheat; catapult launches rarely required afterburner unless it was a windless day or launching near max payload. Though large, its maneuverability matched the F-4s and its Grumman bubble cockpit provided excellent visibility. Close in fights were handled by VTAS helmets providing a high off-boresight lock-on of AIM-9s. Because of its large size, its service life was limited to Forestall Classes and newer, the Midway's, remaining Essex's and Marine Corps received upgraded F-4s and A-6s.

Variants
YF-14 - Development model with F-111B systems and TF30 engines, first flight - December 1969
F-14A - Full production with model F101 engines, entered service in September 1972
F-14B - Upgraded digital avionics with AWG-15 radar and attack capabilities equal to A-6E, entered serviced in March 1981
F-14C - The "Super Tomcat" with uprated engines, glass cockpit, and Active phased array radar, entered service in August 1993

Specs
Crew: 2
Length: 75 ft
Wingspan: 60 ft
Height: 18 ft
Empty Weight: 45,000 lb
Max Takeoff Weight: 85,000 lb
Combat Radius: 800 nmi
Avionics
Hughes AWG-9
Hughes ASB-19
AVCO ALR-23
Litton ALR-45
Honeywell HGU-30 VTAS
 
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Mirage4000

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1620435746684.png


After its first flight in 1967, in 1968 Spain decided to join in the development of Mirage G8

With a total production of 450 aircraft, France took 150, Spain 120, several export orders followed.

Irak bought 145 aircraft and Turkey 45.

During the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s it served well, downing 17 Iranian F-14s
 

BigRIJoe

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NASA chose Direct Flight for the Apollo lunar landing mode. Saturn C-3 was built for the earth orbital phase and Nova was built for the lunar landing mission. No Apollo 204 fire, Grissom first moon walker and Apollo continued with no Vietnam War draining it's funds. No shuttle and a manned Mars landing by 1992.
 

Archibald

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Mirage G is picked up by USN in 1969 as a "sidekick" for Tomcat. Including for a few rebuilt Essex carriers CVAs to last into the 80's. Screw VFAX and the F-18.
Could have happened in the summer of 1969 - Dassault was ready to built three more Mirage G to be sent to a "test squadron" at Patuxent river.

Which got me thinking... the "second Mirage F2" turned "first Mirage F3" in the spring 1967, and then cancelled 30% built... could have been turned into a second Mirage G.

And the Mirage F2 itself, who flew between June 12, 1966 and May 19, 1969, could have been rebuilt as a third Mirage G , right in time for Patuxent.

The Mirage F2, F3 and G - in that order, 1966-67 - were essentially "false twins": with the same basic "fat TF306E fuselage" - differing only by
- the cockpit (1-seat or 2-seat)
- the mission (strike vs interception)
- the wings (swept vs VG)

Mirage production lines / industrial shares

- Mirage F1 to Greece, 1971: Dassault offload 20% of industrialization to the greeks. Beat Phantom.

- Mirage 2000 production line in India was considered twice: in 1985, but Mig-29 was prefered. And 2006, but MRCA and then Rafale.

- Mirage 4000 production paid by Saudi Arabia or Iraq or Imperial Iran.
----

"Counterforce from space" https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2714/1

https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/space/CounterforceFromSpace(1961).pdf

SDI 20 years before Reagan and without the lasers: 100 000 kinetic interceptors (Brilliant Pebbles ancestors) plus casaba howitzers, supported by three fleets of Orion nuclear pulse ships: one in Earth orbit 1000 miles high, the second in GEO, the third in cislunar space.
 
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Volkodav

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A very simple should have been, the two RAN County Class cruisers, Australia and Canberra are built in Australia and the seaplane carrier HMAS Albatross is not built at all.

This was proposed but the UK build was chosen because it was cheaper, then Albatross was then ordered, in a large part to retain ship building skills, wasting the money that was saved. Then when it came time to replace the Town Class cruisers in mid to late 30s there was no choice but to buy existing ships from the UK, same with replacing the destroyers.

Local construction, in particular if the replacement of the Towns was factored in, and machinery, armament and armor were progressively also produced locally, would have resulted in a much more capable, much more robust industry leading into WWII.

Australia goes into WWII with an established shipbuilding industry easily capable of building heavy and light cruisers, destroyers and sloops. There is greater capacity to manufacture machine tools (one of the most persistent bottle neck in Australian war time production), as well as larger calibre guns, and perhaps most importantly, to roll armor plate.
 

Archibald

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Talking about the Shuttle... S-IC as booster sounds obvious. Non-flyback but 0.94 propellant mass fraction OR flyback with only 0.85 mass fraction.
But what to put on top ?
- internal tanks orbiter with storables or kerolox props: only very small payload
- internal LOX / external LH2 orbiter: better payload

Or S-ID, the Atlas-ized Saturn booster stage. With a kerolox internal tank orbiter on top. Recover the "engine ring" with the four F-1s. Put a F-1A on the centerline for better performance.

and, most importantly: screw the KH-9 and screw the NRO. Keep the 15 feet diameter but screw the 60 feet length, it negatively impacted the orbiter.
 

sferrin

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View attachment 656837


After its first flight in 1967, in 1968 Spain decided to join in the development of Mirage G8

With a total production of 450 aircraft, France took 150, Spain 120, several export orders followed.

Irak bought 145 aircraft and Turkey 45.

During the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s it served well, downing 17 Iranian F-14s
1ZIPkH9.jpeg

cdi21.jpg
 

Archibald

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Very much a Vought Tomcat with Mirage intakes.

Legacy of Vought - Dassault cooperation in 1969, including a proposal to sell three Mirage G to the USN as a test squadron in Patuxent river...

2014-Mirage-G-pr%C3%A9sent%C3%A9-%C3%A0-la-presse-%C3%A0-Villaroche.jpg
 

Lascaris

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Mirage production lines / industrial shares

- Mirage F1 to Greece, 1971: Dassault offload 20% of industrialization to the greeks. Beat Phantom.
That's great for the Greek aviation industry (the Greeks mind you still buy Phantom and A-7 most likely) but not certain how much it affects the French one in the 1970s. Of course this gives Mirage 2000 a huge head start in Greece 10 years down the line and makes the Greeks an obvious minor partner for Rafale. So hmm. The cost of 40 F-16 +40 Mirage 2000 equalled the cost of 100 Mirage 2000 in 1984. Add another 40-60 post 1992 by 1999 when Greece ordered 60 F-16 +15 Mirage 2000 followed by another 30 F-16 in 2006 Rafale is getting into service lets put the number to 75 to take into account the higher costs compared to the single engined birds

So ~160 Mirage 2000 and ~100 Rafale by 2020 not counting the economic benefits from the industrial share not just on Greek but also French and foreign orders which for a country the size of Greece would be notable. Not bad.
 

Archibald

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Mirage production lines / industrial shares

- Mirage F1 to Greece, 1971: Dassault offload 20% of industrialization to the greeks. Beat Phantom.
That's great for the Greek aviation industry (the Greeks mind you still buy Phantom and A-7 most likely) but not certain how much it affects the French one in the 1970s. Of course this gives Mirage 2000 a huge head start in Greece 10 years down the line and makes the Greeks an obvious minor partner for Rafale. So hmm. The cost of 40 F-16 +40 Mirage 2000 equalled the cost of 100 Mirage 2000 in 1984. Add another 40-60 post 1992 by 1999 when Greece ordered 60 F-16 +15 Mirage 2000 followed by another 30 F-16 in 2006 Rafale is getting into service lets put the number to 75 to take into account the higher costs compared to the single engined birds

So ~160 Mirage 2000 and ~100 Rafale by 2020 not counting the economic benefits from the industrial share not just on Greek but also French and foreign orders which for a country the size of Greece would be notable. Not bad.

Or the Mirage 2000 simply never exists in the first place, as Mirage F1M53 + analog FBW replaces it, for Greece, Belgium, French Navy, Armée de l'Air, and a bunch of others...
The F1M53 pulls a Rafale 30 years before the date by standardizing the entire fleet of AdA + Aéronavale combat jets.
- Jaguars are sold to India
- Mirage III / V are sold to South America
- Mirage F1 Atar are dumped too
- Crusaders are dumped
- Super Etendard, Mirage 2000 never happen

While inferior to the F-16 the F1M53 by pulling a Rafale allows massive economies of scale and either the ACF or 4000 to happen to replace the Mirage IVA as a nuclear bomber.

By 1977 the 4000 becomes the basis of both ATL Rafale and Typhoon which never split. More exactly a scaled down Mirage 4000 with RB.199s... the Mirage 3000.
 

Lascaris

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Mirage production lines / industrial shares

- Mirage F1 to Greece, 1971: Dassault offload 20% of industrialization to the greeks. Beat Phantom.
That's great for the Greek aviation industry (the Greeks mind you still buy Phantom and A-7 most likely) but not certain how much it affects the French one in the 1970s. Of course this gives Mirage 2000 a huge head start in Greece 10 years down the line and makes the Greeks an obvious minor partner for Rafale. So hmm. The cost of 40 F-16 +40 Mirage 2000 equalled the cost of 100 Mirage 2000 in 1984. Add another 40-60 post 1992 by 1999 when Greece ordered 60 F-16 +15 Mirage 2000 followed by another 30 F-16 in 2006 Rafale is getting into service lets put the number to 75 to take into account the higher costs compared to the single engined birds

So ~160 Mirage 2000 and ~100 Rafale by 2020 not counting the economic benefits from the industrial share not just on Greek but also French and foreign orders which for a country the size of Greece would be notable. Not bad.

Or the Mirage 2000 simply never exists in the first place, as Mirage F1M53 + analog FBW replaces it, for Greece, Belgium, French Navy, Armée de l'Air, and a bunch of others...
The F1M53 pulls a Rafale 30 years before the date by standardizing the entire fleet of AdA + Aéronavale combat jets.
- Jaguars are sold to India
- Mirage III / V are sold to South America
- Mirage F1 Atar are dumped too
- Crusaders are dumped
- Super Etendard, Mirage 2000 never happen

While inferior to the F-16 the F1M53 by pulling a Rafale allows massive economies of scale and either the ACF or 4000 to happen to replace the Mirage IVA as a nuclear bomber.

By 1977 the 4000 becomes the basis of both ATL Rafale and Typhoon which never split. More exactly a scaled down Mirage 4000 with RB.199s... the Mirage 3000.
The funny thing is the Greece alone has already led to significant increases in non French production even if nothing else changes, the 284 Mirage 2000 for export in OTL are 389 TTL and Rafale is up from 150 to 226+...
 

Archibald

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...thank you all. I would say the Mirage F3, even more than the F1, was the great missed opportunity. Could have got the M53 more easily and much earlier, perhaps 1971. A touch larger, too, for better range (basically the F1 was a scaled down, 0.80 F3 for Atar 9K50 rather than TF306E. M53-3 was right between them.)

I came to understand circa 1969 were two M53 planned variants
- M53-2, only 8200 kg thrust BUT can be retrofited to the Mirage F1
- M53-3, 9000 kg thrust but can't fit a F1 rump, the fan is wider for more thrust (unlike the later M53-P2 which was swappable with the earlier variants inside a Mirage 2000 airframe... alas only 15 years later).

From these two variants one can see how SNECMA was trapped in a corner. The more powerful M53-3 was a better replacement for the massively powerful TF306E, 10400 kg thrust. But a F1 could not upgrade with it.
The F3 being larger from the start, could have done it.

In a sense, the mistake was in 1967-68 to go F1 / 9K50 rather than F3 / M53-3. Consolidating the F3 with the more powerful M53.

Afterwards the F1-M53 was never a priority... until waaaaay too late, 1972-75 when the F-16 swept it. The reason was that, unlike the ACF (1972) and 4000 (1975) after them, the G4/G8 were designed (1968) with 9K50 rather than M53: too early for the M53. And thus a F1 supersonic testbed was no priority until the G8 were canned in 1972 for ACF.

Mirage F3-M53-3 (that's a lot of 3 !) would have been closer from a Viggen or a MiG-23... or a F-16 but four years ahead.

A TL with a mix of Mirage G and F3, POD 1968 could be awesome: Mirage G with TF306E in place of F-18 for USN (and Aéronavale too) Mirage F3-M53-3 in place of F1 & 2000 from 1971.
 
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Elan Vital

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...thank you all. I would say the Mirage F3, even more than the F1, was the great missed opportunity. Could have got the M53 more easily and much earlier, perhaps 1971. A touch larger, too, for better range (basically the F1 was a scaled down, 0.80 F3 for Atar 9K50 rather than TF306E. M53-3 was right between them.)

I came to understand circa 1969 were two M53 planned variants
- M53-2, only 8200 kg thrust BUT can be retrofited to the Mirage F1
- M53-3, 9000 kg thrust but can't fit a F1 rump, the fan is wider for more thrust (unlike the later M53-P2 which was swappable with the earlier variants inside a Mirage 2000 airframe... alas only 15 years later).

From these two variants one can see how SNECMA was trapped in a corner. The more powerful M53-3 was a better replacement for the massively powerful TF306E, 10400 kg thrust. But a F1 could not upgrade with it.
The F3 being larger from the start, could have done it.

In a sense, the mistake was in 1967-68 to go F1 / 9K50 rather than F3 / M53-3. Consolidating the F3 with the more powerful M53.

Afterwards the F1-M53 was never a priority... until waaaaay too late, 1972-75 when the F-16 swept it. The reason was that, unlike the ACF (1972) and 4000 (1975) after them, the G4/G8 were designed (1968) with 9K50 rather than M53: too early for the M53. And thus a F1 supersonic testbed was no priority until the G8 were canned in 1972 for ACF.

Mirage F3-M53-3 (that's a lot of 3 !) would have been closer from a Viggen or a MiG-23... or a F-16 but four years ahead.

A TL with a mix of Mirage G and F3, POD 1968 could be awesome: Mirage G with TF306E in place of F-18 for USN (and Aéronavale too) Mirage F3-M53-3 in place of F1 & 2000 from 1971.
So as I understand it the 2000 was designed around the M53-2 rather than M53-3? Was this for commonality or because the M53-3 was dead by then?
 

Archibald

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As you said - it was dead. M53-5 was a modest improvement with 8500 kg thrust. P2 was the real and definite answer.
 

sotos

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Payen RP/Pa.... something, with counter-rotating propellers. Maybe, for example, the Payen RP.420 :
Hi from a new member!(and delta lover). I think the biggest problem with these layouts is the abysmal view from the cockpit when landing,except in the case of a nosewheel landing gear.I think you should try and cram a nosewheel bay behind the engine. Nevertheless,let's remember that canards were not successfull during WW2-eg the Curtiss XP-55 Ascender.
 
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