Yet another claim of a propellantless space drive

martinbayer said:
Pardon my assessment, but you appear to be simply retreading a well worn path of elementary analysis, however, welcome to the party, dude!
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I'm sorry I was late to the party, but at least I brought my own drink. I think it may seem strange to ask a lying machine about the hidden truths of the universe, but humanity has been doing that for millennia through shamans and that passion for knowledge seems normal to us.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I think so.

And a good yardstick in general. You want to claim something really weird/exotic? You'd better have some really impressive evidence, too.

After all, the surest sound of a new scientific breakthrough is not "eureka!" but "hmmm, that's weird..."




If humans can't figure out the math to do something, then how will computers, which require humans to teach them math in the first place?
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That's a good question. In my opinion, computers don't need to be smart to run trillions of simulations until we find the truth we need to know, using brute force trial and error. Nature needs billions of years to do the same thing by trying anything that works. A computer can do it in a few minutes, but the procedure is the same. The hard part will be interpreting the machine's answers: how to choose from trillions of options? That's why I said before that it will be necessary to create an interface that filters only the useful data. If it's done by a particularly sensitive human, their job is secured, but we'd be better off trying to automate the procedure.
 
martinbayer said:
I honestly think that you are utterly, sadly, completely mistaken here: In my quote Lincoln was clearly solemnly talking about fundamental human gullibility, whereas, according to Wikipedia, Mr. Marley was apparently rambling in a drug infused state about poverty and the lives of Haitians (and not that that's not a righteous cause!), but we're discussing oranges vs, apples here, so WTF??? But for sure, druggies are evidently more susceptible to more or less subtle social messaging - just don't compare a stone cold sober icon/martyr of democracy to a junkey sellout stoner...
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In Lincoln's time, politicians won votes thanks to the dissemination of their lofty ideals that guaranteed the honesty of their future government, now they limit themselves to paying for gigantic electoral propaganda campaigns aimed at people susceptible to social messages that are not at all subtle... Why would it be so?
 
Snark:
Yeah, well, they're after the 'Swing Vote': Rest already convinced for/against, or would choose NOTA if that was an option...
/
( Set bar such 'enough' NOTA votes disqualify ballot's candidates for a decade: Long enough to perhaps acquire some humility ??)

Apologies for rant: Have been connecting new through-wall drain for laundry machine displaced from previous location by installation of new, wall-hung c/h combi-boiler. Which totally deranged gable-end of kitchen. Like Legendary guy who beat hydra into submission recursively, I swear Murphy threw me two new problems for every one I solved. Until nothing was left to go wrong with the plumbing.
Next, boxing-in pipes behind planned 'blind corner' kitchen unit, which will sorta-replace 'tallboy' cupboard lost to hanging said boiler...
 
Justo Miranda said:
In Lincoln's time, politicians won votes thanks to the dissemination of their lofty ideals that guaranteed the honesty of their future government, now they limit themselves to paying for gigantic electoral propaganda campaigns aimed at people susceptible to social messages that are not at all subtle... Why would it be so?
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Would you please explain and document "the dissemination of their lofty ideals that guaranteed the honesty of their future government"? There have been political frauds, cheats, and scoundrels since the beginning of recorded history - the only thing that has changed is the efficiency of (electronic) media used for (mis)information.
 
Justo Miranda said:
I've been in public office for thirty-five years, so I'm not surprised by anything people do. For some reason the animals trust me, it must be some pheromones, I would never hunt them. This conversation is very refreshing, but I think we should pretend we're talking about fuelless spacecraft to avoid getting kicked out of this thread.
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As a fairly high(?) functioning social animal myself, I salute you for your service, Sir, and yes, let's talk about propellantless propulsion. At some point in this thread, especially when it came to fancy shmancy electrodynamic considerations, I was struck by the fact that the good old concept of the photon drive hasn't come up. As a youngster, I was (and, as a geezer, still am) utterly fascinated by the factoid that a simple flashlight (or "electric torch" for all you people of a British persuasion out there) might actually be a p**s poor space propulsion system.
 
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Virtue signaling is a problem in politics

This article Scott would like no-doubt:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and/


But someone could say the authors had an axe to grind.

The only proper response to this claim for now is...I don't know.

Same here--although--it is more prima facie
https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/3/4/pgae144/7656014Newton was likely a religious zealot--yet did good work---at times.

In terms of climate change, phys.org had two stories that seem contradictory:

"Last year's snow deluge in California, which quickly erased a two decade long megadrought, was essentially a once-in-a-lifetime rescue from above, a new study found."

https://phys.org/news/2024-04-california-snowy-megadrought-freak-event.html
But then, we hear this:

"Prior research has suggested that atmospheric rivers used to be more common in the region, and may have resulted in more rain than has been seen in modern times. Such studies have suggested that if certain conditions develop, more atmospheric rivers could form in the future, and that they could be bigger, leading to more rainfall than has been seen thus far."

https://phys.org/news/2024-05-atmospheric-rivers-inundating-california-worse.html
And of course---both scenarios are proof of GCC.

If the temperatures go up--that's AGW...even though we saw a spike across the solar system

If the temps go down--well, more evaporation makes more precip'--that falls as newer white snow...so---that's global warming too.

If we have extremes (nothing new) but overall conditions don't change--that also is AGW.

So, which of those stories are correct? I don't know.

But I digress.

In terms of woo-drives, we are told there can be no truck between gravity and, say, the electroweak force.

And yet, we have this:
https://phys.org/news/2023-07-combining-continuum-mechanics-einstein-field.html
To support the consistency between spacetime and electromagnetism, the author describes how the cosmological constant in Einstein's theory, which is believed to be responsible for dark energy is actually a description of an electromagnetic field.

Others seem to think some coupling is going on:
https://phys.org/news/2021-09-dark-energy-scientists-possibility.html
The researchers used their model to show what would happen in the detector if the dark energy was produced in a particular region of the Sun, called the tachocline, where the magnetic fields are particularly strong.

"It was really surprising that this excess could in principle have been caused by dark energy rather than dark matter," said Vagnozzi.

But maybe I want (too badly) for there to be at least some hint that not everything going to space must do so atop a pillar of flame---to idle to orbit peacefully.

I don't know.

Some interesting news in terms of research into gravity
https://phys.org/news/2024-05-cosmic-glitch-gravity-strange-behavior.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2024-05-reveals-quantumness-gravity.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2024-01-astrophysicist-theory-gravity-law.html
However, in any case, the law of conservation of energy-momentum can be violated at high energy levels," Hamidreza Fazlollahi, a graduate student at the Educational and Scientific Institute of Gravity and Cosmology of RUDN University said.
 
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publiusr said:
Virtue signaling is a problem.

This article Scott would like no-doubt:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and/


But someone could say the authors had an axe to grind.

The only proper response to this claim for now is...I don't know.

In terms of climate change, phys.org had two stories that seem contradictory:

"Last year's snow deluge in California, which quickly erased a two decade long megadrought, was essentially a once-in-a-lifetime rescue from above, a new study found."

https://phys.org/news/2024-04-california-snowy-megadrought-freak-event.html
But then, we hear this:

"Prior research has suggested that atmospheric rivers used to be more common in the region, and may have resulted in more rain than has been seen in modern times. Such studies have suggested that if certain conditions develop, more atmospheric rivers could form in the future, and that they could be bigger, leading to more rainfall than has been seen thus far."

https://phys.org/news/2024-05-atmospheric-rivers-inundating-california-worse.html
And of course---both scenarios are proof of GCC.

If the temperatures go up--that's AGW...even though we saw a spike across the solar system

If the temps go down--well, more evaporation makes more precip'--that falls as newer white snow...so---that's global warming too.

If we have extremes (nothing new) but overall conditions don't change--that also is AGW.

So, which of those stories are correct? I don't know.
Click to expand...
If you have a bible/koran/whatever, I invite you to check it for instances of virtue signal(l [I don't know if you are of the British English persuasion or not])ing and feel free to report back with an exact count. VS (you read it here first, folks!) is just another BS meme coined by internet "personalities"/"influencers". Old man rant off.
 
publiusr said:
Virtue signaling is a problem in politics

This article Scott would like no-doubt:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and/


But someone could say the authors had an axe to grind.

The only proper response to this claim for now is...I don't know.

Same here--although--it is more prima facie
https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/3/4/pgae144/7656014Newton was likely a religious zealot--yet did good work---at times.

In terms of climate change, phys.org had two stories that seem contradictory:

"Last year's snow deluge in California, which quickly erased a two decade long megadrought, was essentially a once-in-a-lifetime rescue from above, a new study found."

https://phys.org/news/2024-04-california-snowy-megadrought-freak-event.html
But then, we hear this:

"Prior research has suggested that atmospheric rivers used to be more common in the region, and may have resulted in more rain than has been seen in modern times. Such studies have suggested that if certain conditions develop, more atmospheric rivers could form in the future, and that they could be bigger, leading to more rainfall than has been seen thus far."

https://phys.org/news/2024-05-atmospheric-rivers-inundating-california-worse.html
And of course---both scenarios are proof of GCC.

If the temperatures go up--that's AGW...even though we saw a spike across the solar system

If the temps go down--well, more evaporation makes more precip'--that falls as newer white snow...so---that's global warming too.

If we have extremes (nothing new) but overall conditions don't change--that also is AGW.

So, which of those stories are correct? I don't know.

But I digress.

In terms of woo-drives, we are told there can be no truck between gravity and, say, the electroweak force.

And yet, we have this:
https://phys.org/news/2023-07-combining-continuum-mechanics-einstein-field.html
To support the consistency between spacetime and electromagnetism, the author describes how the cosmological constant in Einstein's theory, which is believed to be responsible for dark energy is actually a description of an electromagnetic field.

Others seem to think some coupling is going on:
https://phys.org/news/2021-09-dark-energy-scientists-possibility.html
The researchers used their model to show what would happen in the detector if the dark energy was produced in a particular region of the Sun, called the tachocline, where the magnetic fields are particularly strong.

"It was really surprising that this excess could in principle have been caused by dark energy rather than dark matter," said Vagnozzi.

But maybe I want (too badly) for there to be at least some hint that not everything going to space must do so atop a pillar of flame---to idle to orbit peacefully.

I don't know.

Some interesting news in terms of research into gravity
https://phys.org/news/2024-05-cosmic-glitch-gravity-strange-behavior.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2024-05-reveals-quantumness-gravity.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2024-01-astrophysicist-theory-gravity-law.html
However, in any case, the law of conservation of energy-momentum can be violated at high energy levels," Hamidreza Fazlollahi, a graduate student at the Educational and Scientific Institute of Gravity and Cosmology of RUDN University said.
Click to expand...
Right - always slavishly follow graduate students, no matter if they riot on university grounds - there seems to be a lot of energy-momentum violations at high-energy levels going on right now... And I still consider myself an old school German social democrat.
 
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publiusr said:
Virtue signaling is a problem in politics

This article Scott would like no-doubt:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1cf54uz/a_recent_study_explored_how_liberals_and/
Click to expand...
Ye gods, that was a terribly designed study...




publiusr said:
In terms of woo-drives, we are told there can be no truck between gravity and, say, the electroweak force.

And yet, we have this:
https://phys.org/news/2023-07-combining-continuum-mechanics-einstein-field.html
To support the consistency between spacetime and electromagnetism, the author describes how the cosmological constant in Einstein's theory, which is believed to be responsible for dark energy is actually a description of an electromagnetic field.

Others seem to think some coupling is going on:
https://phys.org/news/2021-09-dark-energy-scientists-possibility.html
The researchers used their model to show what would happen in the detector if the dark energy was produced in a particular region of the Sun, called the tachocline, where the magnetic fields are particularly strong.

"It was really surprising that this excess could in principle have been caused by dark energy rather than dark matter," said Vagnozzi.

But maybe I want (too badly) for there to be at least some hint that not everything going to space must do so atop a pillar of flame---to idle to orbit peacefully.
Click to expand...
It would be nice to have what one of my favorite scifi authors calls "vector control" tech.

But I suspect that the energy efficiency would absolutely suck. As in, worse than photon drives in vacuum. 300megawatts per newton of thrust...


publiusr said:
Some interesting news in terms of research into gravity
https://phys.org/news/2024-05-cosmic-glitch-gravity-strange-behavior.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2024-05-reveals-quantumness-gravity.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2024-01-astrophysicist-theory-gravity-law.html
However, in any case, the law of conservation of energy-momentum can be violated at high energy levels," Hamidreza Fazlollahi, a graduate student at the Educational and Scientific Institute of Gravity and Cosmology of RUDN University said.
Click to expand...
You run into some very strange effects at both extremes of the energy scale.
 
Ding dong, this thread is doomed... countdown to nuking: 4... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... "resistance is futile."
 
martinbayer said:
, I was struck by the fact that the good old concept of the photon drive hasn't come up. As a youngster, I was (and, as a geezer, still am) utterly fascinated by the factoid that a simple flashlight (or "electric torch" for all you people of a British persuasion out there) might actually be a p**s poor space propulsion system.
Click to expand...
Well, if you are willing to work with 300 MWt per 1 H of thrust...
 
Dilandu said:
Well, if you are willing to work with 300 MWt per 1 H of thrust...
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I remember the Forgettomori story called “Laser stars laser planets.”
http://forgetomori.com/2010/science/laser-stars-laser-planets/The idea was that if an asteroid was dropped into the Sun---it would generate a laser pulse in its wake via plasma.

A stellar thunderwell, if you will
http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/articles/manhole-covers-in-space-and-online/
Still having trouble with neutonian physics…hey!
 
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Dilandu said:
Problem is, humans exist mostly in the middle.
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Yep. Means we consider those power levels extremes, as opposed to some hypothetical life that lives inside stars, for example, that would consider most power levels under gigawatts to be low.
 
martinbayer said:
let's talk about propellantless propulsion. As a youngster, I was (and, as a geezer, still am) utterly fascinated by the factoid that a simple flashlight (or "electric torch" for all you people of a British persuasion out there) might actually be a p**s poor space propulsion system.
Click to expand...
Light still has the power to amaze.
As it turns out, if you hit water at a forty five degree angle along the green spectrum, you can get evaporation without heat.

That didn't surprise me as much as today's article "Research team discovered new property of light" from work by UC Irvine's Dimitri Fish man..."photons can obtain substantial momentum, similar to that of electrons in solid materials."

From:
https://phys.org/news/2024-05-team-property.html
A little more oomph for space drives?

He might be in driving distance of you Martin.

I do remember an old Space Daily article about one sail material getting an added bounce a decade or two back or so--that was silicon too IIRC.

Maybe this?
https://www.esa.int/Science_Explora...ail_could_speed_journey_to_other_star_systemshttp://www.gregmatloff.com/JBISproofsRev.A-Jan.10,2013.pdf
For solar thermal
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-device-can-generate-temperatures-over-1000c/
 
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publiusr said:
Light still has the power to amaze.
As it turns out, if you hit water at a forty five degree angle along the green spectrum, you can get evaporation without heat.

That didn't surprise me as much as today's article "Research team discovered new property of light" from work by UC Irvine's Dimitri Fish man..."photons can obtain substantial momentum, similar to that of electrons in solid materials."

A little more oomph for space drives?

He might be in driving distance of you Martin.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the initial pointer, even though his actual name is *Dmitry Fishman*, see https://www.chem.uci.edu/people/dmitry-fishman - I do indeed live about 15 driving minutes from the UCI campus, but color me skeptical for the time being...
 
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Thank you for that---my "Google fu" is lacking (Dogpile used to be my go-to).

I figure building a massive laser for Starshot may not be needed if an in bound objects trajectory sunward could be flattened a bit---the way Sol eats comets, all you need are a lens between the laser and anything to be accelerated.

It doesn't have to be aimed...just having small craft lased forward as heliopause probes is fine---whatever works.
 
Phys.org has an article out called:

"Model Suggests Subluminal Warp Drives May Be Possible."

I'll take it.

Now--how is it supposed to be built, again?

VR only allows subliminal...

More claims
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2026/03/exodus-propulsion-and-the-electrostatic-pressure-force.html
Orbitronics
https://techxplore.com/news/2026-04-door-efficient-orbitronic-devices.htmlTalk about effects on angular momentum

Similar?
https://phys.org/news/2026-04-quantum-ground-state-rotation-dimensions.html
 
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