Whispering during 1930s - French military technology and tactics

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
1 May 2011
Messages
709
Reaction score
503
As more specific follow-up to the old thread - what should've one been whispering to the ears of the powers that were in the 1935-1940 France, in order that the French army, air force and navy has the much improved military gear (from booths and field kitchens to the BBs and aircraft), as well as the suitable tactics to employ all of that? That 'one' doing the whispering is a person from 21st century, a well-read enthusiast, but he has no laptop filled to the brim with pdfs to help the French out.
Yes, I know that industry has it's problems, so do the governments of the second half of the 1930s.

Ww2 still starts as it did, and there is no newly-found mountains of gold to bankroll everything - so cut where needed to gain the good stuff. There is no 21st century counterpart in Germany, unlike in Tony's novel. Topic does not include the things of strategy or the grand strategy, and there is no way to influence the British or other allies - they will do pretty much as historically.
 
To start the ball rolling - radios do matter, since they enable the joint operation between the different units to happen. Tanks can 'talk' with other tanks, plus with infantry and artillery. Radios offer comm with friendly aircraft.
For the tanks, this means that at least two-men turret need to be made, and with these all the new tank designs. Yes, this makes tanks pricier, but it is worth it.
 
The AdA is a relatively well-discussed topic generally, so I will not comment on it yet.

Tanks I want to talk about, since several trips to the archives allowed me to have insight on what the people of the day themselves thought before and after the battle, some of teh industrial/technical problems, and paths not taken.

As a disclaimer, the 1935 starting date and the need to achieve certain quantities of weapons require that the 1935 designs be ordered at least initially. Brand new projects started at this point will usually not be ready until 38-40 and will not always be available in sufficient quantity (unlike planes where even a 1938 intro date coupled with good production capacity is enough to meet requirements).

There are some core conclusions I can make, many of which had been made before or after the battle by contemporaries.

The doctrine and force structure which assumed a large mass of light infantry tanks (R35/H35/FCM 36) and a significant number of battle tanks (D series, B series, both Somua and Renault AMCs) spread out between DCR, DLMs and independent light tank battalions was beyond the means of the actual French forces in 1940. There are paths to achieve it, but a more conservative conclusion is that, as recommended OTL, more should be done to at least obtain the required numbers of battle tanks (about 1000) even if only a few hundred lights are made instead of the nearly 2000 we had. The reason being that light tanks were considerably less versatile than battle tanks which had a good armament, better crossing capability and a standard-issue radio set, and thus could operate well in armored divisions.
Additionally, the historical light tanks used disproportionate industrial (castings, APX turrets and long 37 guns) capacity and technical expertise relative to their actual value.

As such, France should forgo independent battalions and focus on producing the minimum quantity of battle tanks needed to form the required armored divisions. The Renault and Hotchkiss light tanks which were well advanced in development at this point could still be adequately improved and build in the few hundreds to replace aging AMR-type recon vehicles, as the H39 was historically used, to not completely waste the development effort and benefit from their easy manufacture and low cost. The smaller scale light tank program will also save up manufacturing ressources for the production of APX 1/4 turrets and 47mm SA35 guns, and relieve design bureaus of certain highly competent companies (FCM and AMX which were at the forefront of tank diesels, improved turrets and welded structures).

The battle tank programs can also be improved by reducing redundancy and better exploiting some designs. OTL, the G1 program started as what amounted to a Somua S40 with infantry branch's radios, then incorporated a 60mm armor basis, finally morphed into an improved, simpler and cheaper B1 (dual armament), and finally to a full-blown 75mm-turreted tank. The many changes hurt the proposed designs which used engines and hull dimensions suitable for the B1 configuration, but excessive with a 75mm turret (this is why the BDR and Fouga proposals ballooned in weight). At the same time, the first 2 configs could have been closely matched with two existing programs: the S40, which could be started sooner to meet the original intent of a mobile and "cheap and simple" battle tank, and the B1 Ter which had roots as far back as 1934-35 and could have progressed much faster with early support (eg at least 3 new-build prototypes instead of one single old converted B1), and offered the same benefits as the dual armament G1s. A G1 program with the 75mm turret from the start, even if started in 1937-38 as OTL, could progress more smoothly without the bagage of the previous specifications, and could more advantageously replace the B40 program from 1939 which converged to the same armament in June 1940, but was arguably less-well laid out (envelopping tracks).
The B1 battle tank program, for the time being, can benefit from an earlier switch to the B1 Ter config (originally the B1 Ter was even meant as a very early follow-on to the Bis to be made in 1936) and the introduction of some B1 Ter features early on as multiple testbeds could try them separately (instead of being tied to a single complete design). As recommended by the officers of the time, the 1936 nationalizations could be exploited to move away from the Estienne accords which limited B1 production to a few select contractors, and industrial capacity could also be improved to fix some bottlenecks (Renault engines and Naeder gearboxes), which could double the peacetime production rate from 5/month to 10/month by 1937/38 even with B1 Bis, increasing the number of available battalions.
The D2 tank, which had been largely dismissed due to its relative obsolescence (a fair assessment), was nonetheless a suitable stopgap pending the expansion of B1 production and the availability of more Somuas, but was never bought in sufficient orders to allow continuous production and a switch from artisanal to industrial methods (generally all French battle tanks suffered from this issue before the war). A minimum order of 3 battalions (150 tanks) instead of one battalion in 1935 and one battalion in 1937 could help.
Alternatively, with FCM/AMX now free from light tank programs and the G1, the D2 could even see a more significant "Bis/Ter" redesign incorporating a diesel engine, more sloped surfaces, running gear improvements and maybe even 60mm of armor.

From an R&D perspective, dedicated diesel engines (pushed since 1929 by all tank inspectors, and especially useful on French tanks which have high range requirements) and early 47mm SA35 turrets by FCM and AMX instead of the misused efforts on light tank 37mm SA 38 turrets and light tank diesels could also help, and would alleviate production problems and technical limitations of the APX-1/4 turrets pending a switch to 2+ man turrets.

The AMC 35 by Renault is the last battle tank design available in 1935. Though frankly poor in many ways (weak armor, riveting, questionable 4-cylinder line engine derived from B1's 6-cylinder, questionable reliability), the vehicle still had a lot of potential as a sidegrade to the Somua, and the 2-man APX-2 turret in particular had a lot of potential. A reduced R35 effort, a renewed effort in battle tanks, the promise of a minimum order for 150 vehicles and better control of Renault or assistance from AMX could yield significant early improvements (reliability, 30mm welded armor for example), until a second generation which could incorporate a sounder powertrain (V8 or V12 engine, relocated rear transmission and reworked engine bay, heavier armor) and could further improve on the turret concept (I'm not sure yet, but the turret ring diameter might allow more than a 2-man 47mm SA35 turret). It might even be a path to the G1R, with an upscale to use the bigger turrets, a bigger engine, torsion bars and still rear transmission. At some point an extrapolation of the AMC 35 could finally replace the Somua and D2.

Note that historically, French tank inspectors estimated that a good tank program would require about 2.4 billion francs, which is not insignificant but not that much compared to naval, fortification and airforce programs, and is perfectly justified by the value and importance of the armored force in a war with Germany.
The doctrine also contradicted itself as it aknowledged the heavy armor and good standalone capabilities of French tanks, but made them subservient to the infantry even though it should be the infantry and artillery which should assist tanks, since they are always the first echelon of an assault. This will have to be adjusted. French officers also historically identified problems with training, the late formation of the DCRs, and poor tank/infantry cooperation (very ironic considering the intended use of tanks). Two specific items of importance were also recovery vehicles, second crews to replace tired ones (in place in the UK since 1919), and quick refueling equipment (recommended in 1937, reduces refueling time for a B1 from 2 hours to around 20 minutes).

For radios, most designs actually performed well in 1940, but there weren't enough and they weren't always used adequately by commanders. Generally French comms (including encryption/decryption) were very poor in 1940 considering that they were top notch in 1918. Nothing to say other than that field requires some investment and some more innovative minds. Note that historically, most French tanks used radio operators in the hull (which increased height and, considering weight limitations, made it less convenient to use more efficient wide but low hulls and a 2nd crewmember in the turret with the radio). This was due to the infantry being concerned with the poor quality of voice radio compared to telegraphy in the mid 30s. Some investments to make the 30's radio programs succeed would help cement voice as the means of choice.


This a long and convoluted post, so feel free to ask for more explanations if confused.
 
A lot more of a capable AA artillery will be needed, both the light types (typically 20-40mm bracket) and heavy stuff (75mm and above). For the new-gen 75mm, Army making a piggy-back on the naval 75mm AA piece might've been a good idea.
The 100 mm naval guns seem also like very useful pieces to be turned into the ground-based AA guns.

An early 'mechnization' of, perhaps the - again - naval 37mm AA gun might've yielded a fine AA gun, to cover the altitudes under ~3000m. Perhaps it would've been brought into the fruition earlier than the Schneider 37mm gun.
The 25mm ATG is about to plateau wrt. the reliable armor penetration over the combat distances due to the advancements in tanks, so maybe double down on making more of the 25mm AA guns earlier?
Hispano-Suiza is making under the licence the Oerlikon S gun, adopting these for the Army AA needs should've went straightforwars.

(as it was, the supply of the AA guns between 20 and 37mm was pitiful in 1940, perhaps 500 pcs all told?)

Lastly, making even a hundred of so of the self-propelled AA guns would've come in nicely for the 1st line mechanized divisions (assuming these are made in a timely manner).
 
To start the ball rolling - radios do matter, since they enable the joint operation between the different units to happen. Tanks can 'talk' with other tanks, plus with infantry and artillery. Radios offer comm with friendly aircraft.
For the tanks, this means that at least two-men turret need to be made, and with these all the new tank designs. Yes, this makes tanks pricier, but it is worth it.
Using the radio as the catalyst for two man turret on tanks will also hopefully equate to larger turret rings, which will be more adventurous later on as the given tank design matures and combat experience is incorporated.....

Regards
Pioneer
 
Aircraft and aero engines possible improvements due to being on the receiving end of the whispering:
- Have HS not making any radial engines (both 14AA and 14AB were good awful; BTW, don't believe Wikipedia that the 14AA was a spin off from the R-2600). Use the resources to improve the HS 12Y series instead, especially the superchargers on them. Usage of the Szydlowsky-Planiol S/C was a step in the right direction, if a bit too late. Knowledge about the 2-stage superchargers was common in 1930s Europe (see Farman in 1935 for example) and abroad, attaching such an unit on the HS 12Y engine would've netted a nifty improvement, especially in the altitude performance.
More power = better performance (brought to you by Cpt Obvious).

- Have G&R not making the 14M. The 600 HP 14-cyl radials are not worth it past 1935-ish on the 1st line military aircraft. Use the time and resources to improve the line of 14K and 14N instead. Hopefully the improvements of the S/C might yield the equivalent of the Tumansky M88B (= 1100 HP at 4km, 1000 HP at 6km) by 1938/early 1939? If the 14R can be brought to the mass production by late 1939, that would've been great.
There were also radial engines with 2-stage S/Cs in 1930s Europe (by Bristol and Piaggio), so this is another path to the improvement of the overall power, but especially for the higher altitudes.
 
To start the ball rolling - radios do matter, since they enable the joint operation between the different units to happen. Tanks can 'talk' with other tanks, plus with infantry and artillery. Radios offer comm with friendly aircraft.
French army perfectly realized the usefulness of radio. They just were too concerned about radio transmission being intercepted by enemy. They argued that any useful code could be broken, and too complex code would be too clumsy to use. Interesting to note, that French development of microwave radars - in which they were pioneers - stemmed at least partially from the desire to create "tight-beam radio signal lamp", that could be used for highly directed transmissions with low risk of interception.


For the tanks, this means that at least two-men turret need to be made, and with these all the new tank designs. Yes, this makes tanks pricier, but it is worth it.
Thing was, that for infantry support tanks - basically tracked exoskeletons with small cannons and machineguns - single-man turret allowed for faster reaction time. Commander could train it on any target without the need to explain to gunner where exactly the target is.
 
French army perfectly realized the usefulness of radio. They just were too concerned about radio transmission being intercepted by enemy. They argued that any useful code could be broken, and too complex code would be too clumsy to use. Interesting to note, that French development of microwave radars - in which they were pioneers - stemmed at least partially from the desire to create "tight-beam radio signal lamp", that could be used for highly directed transmissions with low risk of interception.
The way I see it, a yet another faulty standpoint by the French army.

Thing was, that for infantry support tanks - basically tracked exoskeletons with small cannons and machineguns - single-man turret allowed for faster reaction time. Commander could train it on any target without the need to explain to gunner where exactly the target is.

A commander that is aiming the gun and it is loading it is not on the lookout at the other possible targets and threats, he is not communicating with crews of other tanks, nor with his superiors, nor with the supporting infantry - ie. he is not doing what tank commanders were for. Further, he is under that hatch so he is basically blind for anything beyond the small arc along the barrel.
 
The way I see it, a yet another faulty standpoint by the French army.
Yep, but not exactly unjustified one. Radio interception was a major problem during WW2.

A commander that is aiming the gun and it is loading it is not on the lookout at the other possible targets and threats, he is not communicating with crews of other tanks, nor with his superiors, nor with the supporting infantry - ie. he is not doing what tank commanders were for. Further, he is under that hatch so he is basically blind for anything beyond the small arc along the barrel.
Those were infantry tanks. They were supposed to work with infantry - with infantry serving as their eyes, and tanks cleaning the way for infantry.

Further, he is under that hatch so he is basically blind for anything beyond the small arc along the barrel.

On H39 he have observation cupola with visor that could be rotated in any direction & binocular persicope & side-mounted diascopes. Not exactly blind.
 
Yep, but not exactly unjustified one. Radio interception was a major problem during WW2.

Benefits of the radios outweighed the shortcomings.
French have had many years to test the tactical premises and concepts, and see for themselves the benefits and shortcomings of the radios in tactical operations that involved tanks, infantry, artillery, AT artillery, AAA, plus ground to air cooperation.

Those were infantry tanks. They were supposed to work with infantry - with infantry serving as their eyes, and tanks cleaning the way for infantry.

Eyes are connected with the brain with the nerves. Radios were the nerves.
Shouting 'attention, enemy to the left' towards the friendly tank 50 meters away during the combat was passee.

On H39 he have observation cupola with visor that could be rotated in any direction & binocular persicope & side-mounted diascopes. Not exactly blind.

Fair enough.
Unfortunately, come ww2, the H39 left a lot to be desired.
 
Benefits of the radios outweighed the shortcomings.
French have had many years to test the tactical premises and concepts, and see for themselves the benefits and shortcomings of the radios in tactical operations that involved tanks, infantry, artillery, AT artillery, AAA, plus ground to air cooperation.
Theoretically yes. On practice - French military was forced to dealt with what they were given by French government. They could not raise a large corps of professional junior officers, because French government was suspicious of professional military (fearing the possible military coup), and wanted army to be "close to nation".

So essentially, French generals were forced to work from the situation, when their junior ranks would most likely NOT be competent or well-trained enough. The only way to overcome such disadvantages was to implement greater microcontrol from the top. French military operated under doctrine of "controlled battle"; generally static frontline, dominated by heavy artillery (in which France have a significant advantage over everyone else) with the help of numerous spotter planes and massive telephone network. The staff was supposed to control the situation, and junior ranks were given simple orders what exactly to do.

Eyes are connected with the brain with the nerves. Radios were the nerves.
Shouting 'attention, enemy to the left' towards the friendly tank 50 meters away during the combat was passee.
One problem. Infantry wasn't equipped with radios in late 1930s. Neither in France, nor anywhere else. So what the point of having radio on tank, if infantry would still use old-fashioned "bang rifle butt at tank side till somebody would pay attention"? Actually, the Japanese-style communication button on the tank rear - simply a small button that activated buzzer inside the tank, notifying crew that someone want to talk with them - would be much better solution.

Fair enough.
Unfortunately, come ww2, the H39 left a lot to be desired.
Yes, it wasn't optimal, but it was what French industry could produce in reasonable numbers. In fact, it was clearly better than R35.
 
Theoretically yes. On practice - French military was forced to dealt with what they were given by French government. They could not raise a large corps of professional junior officers, because French government was suspicious of professional military (fearing the possible military coup), and wanted army to be "close to nation".

So essentially, French generals were forced to work from the situation, when their junior ranks would most likely NOT be competent or well-trained enough. The only way to overcome such disadvantages was to implement greater microcontrol from the top. French military operated under doctrine of "controlled battle"; generally static frontline, dominated by heavy artillery (in which France have a significant advantage over everyone else) with the help of numerous spotter planes and massive telephone network. The staff was supposed to control the situation, and junior ranks were given simple orders what exactly to do.
Again, fair enough.
Debugging the French military, and accepting the whole concept of having a capable military force by France was really something else.


One problem. Infantry wasn't equipped with radios in late 1930s. Neither in France, nor anywhere else. So what the point of having radio on tank, if infantry would still use old-fashioned "bang rifle butt at tank side till somebody would pay attention"?

Point might be that a complete tank unit can be aware of the enemy on short notice, instead of banging at each and every tank in order for the tank crews pay attention.

Japanese-style communication button on the tank rear - simply a small button that activated buzzer inside the tank, notifying crew that someone want to talk with them - would be much better solution.

Deliberately outfitting the infantry with the rifle grenades of different color might've also helped, until/unless someone greenlits that idea of infantry having the radios.
 
Debugging the French military, and accepting the whole concept of having a capable military force by France was really something else.
Yep. Essentially, it's more reasonable to try and remedy deficiences in existing French doctrines, than to radically change them. French military doctrines were dogmatic and rigid, but generally reliable and workable. Their main problem was, basically, lack of preparations to counter different types of warfare.

Point might be that a complete tank unit can be aware of the enemy on short notice, instead of banging at each and every tank in order for the tank crews pay attention.
Yes, but it would either require the commander to work as radio operator, or putting additional crew member in tank (making the machine bigger, heavier and costlier). Let's not forget, French light tanks were supposed to work as "armored infantry".

Deliberately outfitting the infantry with the rifle grenades of different color might've also helped, until/unless someone greenlits that idea of infantry having the radios.
The idea isn't enough; there must be technological and industrial capabilities to produce such radio systems for infantry.
 
French high command did push for radios in all light tanks in 1935. The problem is that integrating suitable radios in tanks not designed for them was not easy. They tested the ER 54 and ER 28 radios and took a while to finally settle on a suitable type. In fact not until spring 1940.

It didn't help that the French post-20s radio programs did not pan out for the most part. But it's not easy to prioritize exactly the right things for the next war when you have so many topics to deal with. Still, most of the radios in service in 1940 proved satisfactory in combat, and the bigger issue was their quantity and use.
 
Yes, but it would either require the commander to work as radio operator, or putting additional crew member in tank (making the machine bigger, heavier and costlier). Let's not forget, French light tanks were supposed to work as "armored infantry".
French had no problems to go with bigger tanks too ( 15-20-25 tons). So I'd rather be making these, than the really small tanks that had no growth potential, rendering themselves obsolete quickly. I'll accept the smaller number of tanks made.

The idea isn't enough; there must be technological and industrial capabilities to produce such radio systems for infantry.
Any advance, be it technical, tactical or strategic, has a starting point. Ideas make for good starting points.
If the idea of having more radios produced so the army units can fighter better as units is accepted by 1935, investments need to be made in the electronics industry.
 
While a lot has been said about the possible 1-engined hi-performance French fighters, that were mostly too late, I'd suggest a few 2-engined A/C. For example there was almost 1400 of Potez 63 series A/C made - a really high number considering that it was a 2-engined A/C, and also considering the general state in France in the 1930s. It was a slow aircraft, unfortunately, despite using two engines.
Here, I'll suggest that it is designed around two HS 12Y or G&R 14N engines instead, so the performance is closer to the Fw 187 or Bf 110, rather than at the level of biplanes.
Similar thing with the Breguet 690 series, this a bit smaller A/C might be a tad faster if stars align.

Guns can be 10-12 light machine guns, or a MG-cannon mix.
 
Here, I'll suggest that it is designed around two HS 12Y or G&R 14N engines instead, so the performance is closer to the Fw 187 or Bf 110, rather than at the level of biplanes.
Actually a good idea - and the one French military could pretty well approve (they liked multi-purpose planes)!

Guns can be 10-12 light machine guns, or a MG-cannon mix.
The second most likely. France have good experience with autocannons on planes.
 
P.S. One thing that may be VERY useful - Pierre David's electromagnetic barriers, essentially the first serious attempt to develope multistatic radar. While they were much less capable than British "Chain Home" array, the "barriers" were much simpler, cheaper and easier to establish (the barrier station could be carried by a truck easily):

1716839276212.png
French Army seriously underestimated those early detection technology - which was basically available in early 1930s - and concentrated their efforts on acoustic detectors, providing only minimal funding to Pierre David's experiments. On the contrary, Navy was quite interested and constructed a series of David's barriers on both Atlantic and Mediterranean coastlines:

1716839424272.png

While the early barriers could detect only the passage of plane between two stations (which was by itself quite valuable early warning), and several barriers were required to estimate course, Pierre David developed a "Z-matrix" barrier; two-laywered grid of detecting stations, capable of triangulating plane course and speed. Unfortunately, French military refused to fund such project, so it was not implemented beyond testing - all deployed barriers were of old type:

1716839559742.png

Persuading French generals that radio detection is more promising than acoustic one & deploying Z-matrix type barriers at French borders could actually gave France by mid-1930s the very best early warning/interception guidance system in the world till Chain Home would become fully operational. And it would cost only a fraction of Chain Home efforts, and the barrier station would be highly mobile, capable of easily being redeployed.
 
While a lot has been said about the possible 1-engined hi-performance French fighters, that were mostly too late, I'd suggest a few 2-engined A/C. For example there was almost 1400 of Potez 63 series A/C made - a really high number considering that it was a 2-engined A/C, and also considering the general state in France in the 1930s. It was a slow aircraft, unfortunately, despite using two engines.
Here, I'll suggest that it is designed around two HS 12Y or G&R 14N engines instead, so the performance is closer to the Fw 187 or Bf 110, rather than at the level of biplanes.
Similar thing with the Breguet 690 series, this a bit smaller A/C might be a tad faster if stars align.

Guns can be 10-12 light machine guns, or a MG-cannon mix.
Actually a good idea - and the one French military could pretty well approve (they liked multi-purpose planes)!


The second most likely. France have good experience with autocannons on planes.
It's very much in the line of the twin-engine C1 entries with full-blown 12Y/12Z and 14N/R engines such as the Breguet 700, just earlier. Might have been a good thing indeed.
 
Breguet 690 and Potez 63 were rivals - as 1934 heavy fighters. After the Potez won, they evolved along separate paths. Potez got heavy fighter and reconnaissance. Breguet become the attack plane. Both had troublesome engines: Potez 630 and Breguet 691 had to be grounded to depots, a huge waste. Both planes had 700 hp radials, hence dramatically lacked power.
Breguet built less than 300 type 690 when Potez build 1100 Type 63; except 700 were for reconnaissance (63-11).

If played smart, the "volume" of OTL Potez 63 and Breguet 690 (a total of 1400 airframes) could be turned into a French Advanced Striking Force. I mean: all those Blenheims and Battles thrown into the fire in May 1940.

As for powerful radials, you would need the Bloch 174 / LeO-451 / Amiot 350 1100 hp 14N. Cutting into those long range night bombers in favor of a twin radial attack plane would be very welcome in Sedan when trying to stop panzers. Breguet 693s drastically cut their flak losses when attacking above 2000 feet. Unfortunately, their bomb sights were not adapted.

Unfortunately the french HQ was geriatric, senile, and stubborn.
 
Back
Top Bottom