• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Wasserfall antiaircraft rocket

Barrington Bond

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
929
Reaction score
93
Imperial War Museum Cosford.
 

Attachments

  • DSC00347.JPG
    DSC00347.JPG
    60.9 KB · Views: 295
  • DSC00351.JPG
    DSC00351.JPG
    58.5 KB · Views: 279
  • DSC00352.JPG
    DSC00352.JPG
    59 KB · Views: 279

Barrington Bond

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
929
Reaction score
93
Re: Wasserfall

Anyone know if there has been a book released on Wasserfall?
 

Attachments

  • DSC00353.JPG
    DSC00353.JPG
    42.1 KB · Views: 86
  • DSC00350.JPG
    DSC00350.JPG
    52.7 KB · Views: 88
  • DSC00349.JPG
    DSC00349.JPG
    60.1 KB · Views: 97
  • DSC00282.JPG
    DSC00282.JPG
    51.6 KB · Views: 290
  • DSC00279.JPG
    DSC00279.JPG
    54 KB · Views: 335

Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
46
Reaction score
2
Re: Wasserfall

No book that I know of, but it's been described in several - all long out of print. I've got a data table I could scan as a graphic.
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,258
Reaction score
1,021
Re: Wasserfall

Two drawings of the W5 and W 10 from Waffenarsenal Bd.103 :
 

Attachments

  • Wasserfall.JPG
    Wasserfall.JPG
    18 KB · Views: 208

SOC

I look at pictures all day
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
1,201
Reaction score
39
Re: Wasserfall

Barrington Bond said:
Anyone know if there has been a book released on Wasserfall?

There's some info in German Guided Missiles by Heinz J. Nowarra. Pretty interesting book, I got a copy from the USAF Museum bookstore.
 

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,438
Reaction score
2,377
Website
www.amazon.com
Re: Wasserfall

I will contribute with two drawings
 

Attachments

  • Escanear0009.jpg
    Escanear0009.jpg
    55.7 KB · Views: 186
  • Escanear0010.jpg
    Escanear0010.jpg
    155 KB · Views: 229

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall (surface to surface)

Hi everybody

I have found some really interesting!
http://www.team-delta.de/Anm/C2.htm

At the bottom of the page is a little article about the Surface-to-Surface
variant of the "Wasserfall" rocket, also called "KLEINER WASSERFALL"
This version should be a little bit smaller than the normal Wassefall,
but with a 300kg Warhead and some powder-rockets for supersonic cruise at low altitude.

There are some other projects,too.
The Raketengeschütz 1000
Behelfslaffetenkreuz 3741

What about these projects ? Is there anybody who can help me with these projects!
Thanks in advance for every information or picture !

Many greetings
 

mz

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
676
Reaction score
8
Re: Wasserfall

From what I gather from that German article, the powder things were boosters that enabled the wasserfall to go supersonic with the big payload - not related to any cruise thing.
 

Grzesio

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
252
Reaction score
65
Website
chemnitzer27kb.blogspot.com
Re: Wasserfall

Behelfslaffetenkreuz 3741
:)
It's not a secret project - it's a common artillery item - a cruciform base which could be added to a fixed type lower carriage (pedestal) of a gun - for example an 8,8 cm Flak 37/2 - to make it mobile, possible for use in a field instead of specially prepared positions with concrete foundations only. It was really popular practice from some late 1944 when many guns were moved from AA defense to frontline combat.
According to Hahn, the Raketengeschuetz 1000 was simply a rail type launcher for the Wasserfall mounted on the Behelfslafettenkreuz 3741.

Regards

Grzesio
 

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall

Hi everbody

Thanks for information about that! Grzesio Are there some Pictures ?

Many greetings
 

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall

Hi everyone

Behelslafette (Link removed) Could it be such one ?

Thanks in advance
 

Grzesio

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
252
Reaction score
65
Website
chemnitzer27kb.blogspot.com
Re: Wasserfall

Exactly, that's the thing. :) Similar Lafette was also used for improvised AT guns made from 8,8 cm Pak 43 from the Jagdpanther tank destroyer.
But - do you probably remember pictures of Schmetterling launcher mounted on a two axle undercarriage? Griehl in his not too impressive book "Das grosse Buch der Flak" calls this launcher "Raketenwerfer 1000" - and the launcher is mounted on the Behelfslafettenkreuz indeed. Another puzzle.

Regards

Grzesio
 

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall

Hi everybody

Very mysterious ! But I have found a Picture of It
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugkorper/hs117.htm (RW 1000)
They call it RW 1000 or Raketen-Werfer 1000 ?

Many greetings
 

Grzesio

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
252
Reaction score
65
Website
chemnitzer27kb.blogspot.com
Re: Wasserfall

As you can see here http://www.portierramaryaire.com/imagenes/hs117.jpg, the launcher is mounted on an artillery-type fixed lower carriage bolted to a foundation. And so, the carriage could be mounted on a Behelfslafettenkreuz (as illustrated) for a mobile role. What puzzles me, is the name - Raketenwerfer 1000 or RW 1000 for the Schmetterling and Raketengeschuetz 1000 for the Wasserfall. I just wonder if it's not the same launcher with mistaken purpose? :-\

Regards

Grzesio
 

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall

Now, I am very confused !?!?! So a Schmetterling Launcher should be able to fire a Wasserfall!
 

Grzesio

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
252
Reaction score
65
Website
chemnitzer27kb.blogspot.com
Re: Wasserfall

In no way - and that's the problem. :-[
First of all, the Wasserfall was rather heavy, nine times heavier than the Schmetterling and nearly two times longer. Then the Wasserfall was intended for vertical launch, while the Schmetterling launcher was pointed towards the target (although the missile used zero-lenght launcher with no rails). And finally, this "Raketenwerfer 1000" launcher known from photographs is designed exclusively to accommodate the Schmetterling, nothing else.

Regards

Grzesio
 
A

avatar

Guest
Re: Wasserfall

take a look
http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-MS-1006.pdf
and

some pictures
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/Wasserfal/WasserfalTop.htm
 

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall

Hi everybody

There was also a C-3 rocket ? It should be a two-stage variant of the C-2 Wasserfall.
Someone knows more ?

More Wasserfall
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5409.0.html

There was also a plan to use a redesigned A-4/V-2 as a Flak-Rocket.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6806.0.html

Many greetings
 

Grzesio

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
252
Reaction score
65
Website
chemnitzer27kb.blogspot.com
Re: Wasserfall

The C 3 was to be developed by Rheinmetall, I think. The rocket was still planned for production in November 1944, but was eventually cancelled by Kammler not later than on February 6, 1945.

Regards

Grzesio
 

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall

Thanks ! Very interesting ! Someone knows a drawing or a picture of the C-3 ? Or data ?
 

moin1900

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
456
Reaction score
20
Re: Wasserfall

Hi everybody
Some very interesting drawings.
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/f/Flakraketen/Hs%20117%20Schmetterling/hs%20117%20schmetterling.html
Many greetings
 

AAWolverine

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Re: Wasserfall

Here's a link to photos of a wasserfall on display at the US Ordnance Museum at Abderdeen, Maryland and the same artifact awaiting restoration at the National Museum of the USAF.

http://airpower.callihan.cc/post/10-wasserfall.aspx
 

edwest

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,159
Reaction score
288
Re: Wasserfall

To moin1900,


Thank you for that link.



Ed
 

Hammer Birchgrove

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
583
Reaction score
7

Michel Van

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,758
Reaction score
855
Re: Wasserfall

i look for Information about Wasserfall rocketengine
like the chamber pressure & temperature, Isp, Thrust
were can i find that info?
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,227
Reaction score
468
Re: Wasserfall

WASSERFALL

Beginning in early 1943 (one source gives September, 1942 as the starting date), the entire resources of the Peenemunde group were concentrated on the development of an antiaircraft guided rocket first designated C-2 and later Wasserfall. The first experimental firing was made on 28 February 1944. By January, 1945, 25 experimental firings had been made, all but one with radio control. Fifteen of the firings gave satisfactory flight.

The Wasserfall missile is 88 cm in diameter, 783 cm long, has a launching weight of 3570 kg, and a final weight of 1615 kg with pay load of 305 kg of explosive. It is rocket propelled for 45 sec with a liquid-fuel rocket of 8000-kg thrust. The maximum speed is about 770 m/sec and its maximum height 18.3 km. The horizontal range is 26.5 km.

The control method was designated "Rheinland" which was to be developed in four stages. In the first stage, the rocket was to be steered by direct radio control according to the eclipse procedure as used for FX1400 and Hs-293 with the aid of optical two-axis tracking apparatus. The Kehl-Strasburg meter-wave control transmitter was to be used. At night searchlight beams were to be used. So far as known at present the tests completed were made with this equipment.

The second stage used radar tracking of missile and target with a suitable visual presentation. A human operator was still used with radio transmission of the control information.

The third stage was the automatic control, the radar-tracking device being coupled through a suitable computer to the control stick.

The fourth stage was beam guiding with a homing device for the final stage of the trajectory.

According to one report (unpublished and unfinished manuscript on "Systems of Beam Guiding" found at LFA Braunschweig), dated 28 March 1945, it had been determined by the Peenemunde group that the control described as the second stage above could not be carried out because of the slowness of the human brain and that therefore the control signals must be formed electrically and transmitted automatically to the missile.

The Peenemunde group developed an infrared proximity fuse for use with Wasserfall.

The history of the aerodynamic development of Wasserfall is given in a report WV A 171 by Dr. Kurzweg entitled "The Aerodynamic Development of the Flak Rocket Wasserfall." This interesting document brings out the fact that Wasserfall was, in addition to its immediate application, a contribution to the aerodynamic development of the long-range winged rocket. More than 25 designs were tested in the supersonic wind tunnel at speeds up to three times the speed of sound. The lift-drag ratio was 4.15 at low speeds, 4.42 at Mach number 0.6, 3.90 at Mach number 0.84, 2.90 at Mach number 2.90.

No data are available to the writer on the production plans for Wasserfall. On 6 February 1945 the SS leader Kammler who had been given authority over the development of guided missiles stated that the Wasserfall project would be closed out at the end of the development period, priority being given to unguided rockets such as Taifun.

Source: Technical Intelligence Supplement, May 1946
 

Basil

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
267
Reaction score
52
Stargazer, highly interesting historic report. Thanks for posting.
 

arshin

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Dec 11, 2019
Messages
15
Reaction score
6
A wonderful book on german guided missiles including wasserfall,V-2 by agard .



I also discovered the wasserfall fire control computer online
 

arshin

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Dec 11, 2019
Messages
15
Reaction score
6
All information regarding german missiles radio control system is described in the agard ag-20 textbook,it is by far the best book known to me to have discussed their guidance in detail.
another website of interest for german missiles is:
 
Last edited:

Dilandu

I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
952
Reaction score
454
Website
fonzeppelin.livejournal.com
I am interested specifically in IR seeker.

Quite probably another paper-only device, that some German engineers were pretending to be working on to avoid being drafted into Volkssturm or something. Must admit, I'm pretty low opinion of German WW2 technology (Wasserfall specifically - this useless missile wasted a lot of American, Soviet and French efforts after war, and the result was only one: "it would be simpler to just design a new one from scratch, than fix all things Germans designed wrong")
 

GARGEAN

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
488
Reaction score
198
Maybe, but still nothing impossible. Soviets had working IR seekers for guided bombs in late 40s/early 50s for example.
 

Dilandu

I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
952
Reaction score
454
Website
fonzeppelin.livejournal.com
Maybe, but still nothing impossible. Soviets had working IR seekers for guided bombs in late 40s/early 50s for example.

Japanese made one in 1945 for Ke-Go IR guided bomb (though they didn't have time to put her into service), and US designed at least two IR seekers for Navy & Army guided bomb programs. But this was bomb seekers: they were designed to hit the relatively large target on surface.

Putting IR seeker on Wasserfall would be a two order of magnitude more complex task, because it would need to hit a target in 3D space, homing on it on supersonic speed & dealing with relatively small IR signature. If I recall correctly, the first IR seeker capable of something like that was Sidewinder's one in early 1950s.
 

GARGEAN

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
488
Reaction score
198
Well, from guidance law perspective it made little difference if target was moving in air or was standing on ground. Aerial target is even simpler in fact due to being point target at low contrast background. Anyways, I might quess that this was simple lead sulfide based AM-modulated seeker, like all those zero and first gen seekers. Still interesting to know if they used some unusual solutions in it.
 
Top