Very high speed torpedoes VA-111 Shkval

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,719
Reaction score
0
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Scientific American in their May 2001 issue had an article titled "Warp Drive Underwater" about supercavitation technology and the Russian Va-111 Shkval torpedo. This was about the time that the sinking of K-141 Kursk was believed to have been caused by an explosion of a Shkval. The article suggests that supercavitation was the next big thing in undersea warfare. There were predictions of all sorts of rocket-powered torpedoes and superfast minisubs. Is supercavittion still in the realm of science fiction or are defense contractors and navies seriously looking at supercavitation technology?
 

Michel Van

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,124
Reaction score
0
Is supercavittion still in the realm of science fiction or are defense contractors and navies seriously looking at supercavitation seriously?
oh yes this seriously seriously !

again it was the Germans first in experiment on that during WW2 ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shkval
http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=550&L=1

after wiki
Heckler & Koch P11 for underwater use, have also supercavitating bullets
 

red admiral

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
546
Reaction score
0
It depends on what you mean. Supercavitating propellers have been around for years but have limited applications at the high end of the speed range so aren't greatly used. I seem to remember one of the Russian propeller blade materials for their large hydrofoils being optimised for supercavitation. It used the force of the cavitation bubbles popping to increase the strength of the blade (presumably strain hardening) instead of causing pitting and damage like usual.

Supercavitating things are usually pretty loud as well, which further limits the applications.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,719
Reaction score
0
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
red admiral said:
It depends on what you mean. Supercavitating propellers have been around for years but have limited applications at the high end of the speed range so aren't greatly used. I seem to remember one of the Russian propeller blade materials for their large hydrofoils being optimised for supercavitation. It used the force of the cavitation bubbles popping to increase the strength of the blade (presumably strain hardening) instead of causing pitting and damage like usual.

Supercavitating things are usually pretty loud as well, which further limits the applications.
I am principally referring to underwater torpedoes/missiles and high-speed submarines. Some sources talked about high-speed submerisible fighters. But I didn't know if this was in the realm of science fiction or if this was pausible.
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,680
Reaction score
0
They are damn real
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a49930f38-e94d-4cff-bda4-fe0e7ca2e0a7

All the photos (c) Missiles.Ru

Oleg Granovsky from waronline.org have collected some links to weapons using cavitation


http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000CA29B-0EA6-1C70-84A9809EC588EF21

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/shkval.htm

http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memorial/storm_over_the_squall.htm

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/23/220813.shtml

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/hsuw.htm

http://www.ctechdefense.com/projects.html

http://www.deepangel.com/html/supercavitation.html

RAMICS:

http://www.ctechdefense.com/ramics.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy2001/dot-e/navy/01amc.html

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/kursk.html

http://www.fresh.co.il/dcforum/dcbo...95&forum=Army#3

German Barracuda

http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=550&L=1
 

Attachments

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
8,168
Reaction score
0
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?230536-China-develops-revolutionary-submarine-with-high-speed-of-100-knots

Hmmm.
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
8,168
Reaction score
0
The Elektropribor design bureau's Khishchnik (Predator) torpedo project seems to the Shkval's intended successor: http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.ie/2017/01/the-shkval-boogieman-or-evolved.html
 

Avimimus

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
0
Is there any way to build an effective guidance system? It is hard to see sonar working through the bubble! Maybe radar for terminal guidance?
 

Kadija_Man

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
1,867
Reaction score
0
Avimimus said:
Is there any way to build an effective guidance system? It is hard to see sonar working through the bubble! Maybe radar for terminal guidance?
Anything that transitions the bubble barrier would be distorted. Be it sonar or radar. This is a fundamental problem with super-cavitating weapons. It is why the Shvical and it's successors are only short range weapons ('cause the target would manoeuvre as soon as it "heard" the weapon in the water). Unless they included post launch guidance to correct for those manoeuvre. The obvious answer would be to use wire or fibreoptic guidance with a honking big, most probably active sonar on the launcher. Which of course reveals the presence of the launcher and where it is...
 

Brickmuppet

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Nov 11, 2006
Messages
156
Reaction score
0
It's not a wonder weapon, but like the Long Lance of World War 2, it is fearsome if properly employed.
It travels at 200+ knots.
It has a nuclear warhead.
460 pounds for a warhead will give one a lot of potential kilotons.
This means the shooters torpedo water is a rather large expanse of ocean that 20-35 knot ships need to get out of before a 200+knot device can get into it.

With a World War 2 torpedo data computer this would be something to take seriously.
 

ungern

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Hello everybody.

First one ,i'm sorry for my english ... i'm learning ... and i do my best .

I have a lot of questions about the high speed torpedoes type La VA-111 Chkval

a) this type of torpedoes is born 20 years ago,and I didn't have see equivalent model in other naval forces Why?
It say that Russia has sell such torpedoes to China ... I'm not sure ...what do you know about ?

b) If the concept of the high speed torpedoes "work" , why not a high speed submarine ?

c) against such a torpedo what do you think about a linear shotting of submarine grenades (not to hit the torpedo itself,but to disrupt the water around the torpedo so that the thin gazous phase could be perturb and thus the torpedo ...
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
659
Reaction score
0
Not an expert but the use of a gasified point in the water would seem unlikely. Since the torpedo you mention relies on producing such an effect to achieve high speed. The weapon is an area denial weapon anyway attacking a formation of ships rather than a single target. Probably with a nuclear warhead. Enough to seriously disrupt a carrier group.
 

Avimimus

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
0
Germany also built a supercavitating torpedo.
 

stealthflanker

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
252
Reaction score
0
a. Well Iran seems to also build their own version. the "Hoot"
b. Supercavitating concept wont work at current submarine because it doesn't allow use of sonar. Cavitation is not necessarily a "quiet" phenomenon, you have noisy gas generator and massive propulsion noise that came from the rocket or other possible means of propulsion you have and that means you cannot navigate or even listen to the enemy acoustic emission.
c. Why so complicated ? shoot another torpedo on its way will work just fine.
 

GWrecks

Big Wingy Thingy
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
76
Reaction score
0
This is a very dumb and relatively off-topic question, but what happens if you make a torpedo go supersonic underwater? Is there any difference in effect due to the sonic boom? Not like making something go that fast is realistic, of course...
 

stealthflanker

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
252
Reaction score
0
GWrecks said:
This is a very dumb and relatively off-topic question, but what happens if you make a torpedo go supersonic underwater? Is there any difference in effect due to the sonic boom? Not like making something go that fast is realistic, of course...
It would be similar as one on air except that the medium is alot denser. You might still have sonic boom but now your sonic boom comes with a tsunami.
 

ungern

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Thank you for the thread .

A first question : is it possible for the topedoe to change of direction while it use supracavitation ?

A second question : why there is no submarine who use supracavitation ?

A third question : a shot of dam with depth charges couldn't be enough to do explose the torpedoes against a wall of water after that the supracavitation has been disturb ?
 

ungern

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Thank you for the thread .

A first question : is it possible for the topedoe to change of direction while it use supracavitation ?

A second question : why there is no submarine who use supracavitation ?

A third question : a shot of dam with depth charges couldn't be enough to do explose the torpedoes against a wall of water after that the supracavitation has been disturb by the depths charges ?
 

Brickmuppet

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Nov 11, 2006
Messages
156
Reaction score
0
1: Yes. I understand that at least one version of shikval was wire guided. I believe it had at least some maneuverability by poking vanes outside the bubble.

2: A few possibilities:
A: It would be very expensive and the equipment for generating the bubble would take a lot of internal volume.
B: The gas has to come from somewhere which would put a hard limit on the duration of a high speed run. (It's possible that something might be done with a nuclear reactor boiling seawater, but that would be a dubious proposition for a host of reasons).
C: The hull forms optimized for supercavitation and those useful for underwater stealth are not similar in any ay except having a circular cross section. The craft would be essentially blind while supercavitating.

3: I'm not sure I understand your question. If you are asking is it possible to stop this weapon by creating gas bubbles via explosions to disrupt its supercavitating envelope, I'm not sure. I think it would pass through any bubble like it would its own. However, regarding the specific example of depth charges, large underwater explosions in close proximity tend to be quite detrimental to hulls of any type.
 

ungern

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
A big thank you for this very interesting answer that answers all my questions .

Thank you again.
 
Top