USN P-51D - FJ-1 colour profile added...

damian2

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Hi guys!

Let me try this again. Having seen material alluding to the US Navy testing the P-51 for carrier usgae I came up with this profile:

P-51D-20-NAwithdroptankVF-349.png


As I understand it the project was shelved because of costs of converting the Mustang to carrier use and the fact that it was a liquid cooled engine.

D
 

Justo Miranda

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Re: USN P-51D

Some info here
 

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damian2

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Re: USN P-51D

Thanks for that!! I wonder what the designation would have been? ETF-51D seems like a mouthful :p

D
 

frank

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Re: USN P-51D


USN? Most likely FJ-1.

damian2 said:
Thanks for that!! I wonder what the designation would have been? ETF-51D seems like a mouthful :p

D
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: USN P-51D

Indeed, since the Fury was not even in the early stages, a navalized Mustang would most likely have been the FJ. In that case the Fury would have been the F2J...
 

GTX

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Re: USN P-51D

Speaking of Naval Mustangs, here is a drawing showing the proposed NA-133, Navalised P-51H:

scan0005.jpg


Regards,

Greg
 

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Re: USN P-51D

damian2 said:
As I understand it the project was shelved because of costs of converting the Mustang to carrier use and the fact that it was a liquid cooled engine.

D

I simply think the US Navy didn't need the P-51, liquid cooled or not. The Corsair and Hellcat were both outstanding aircraft and the US had the industrial capacity to build differing types.
 

GTX

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Re: USN P-51D

Tailspin Turtle said:
GTX said:
Speaking of Naval Mustangs, here is a drawing showing the proposed NA-133, Navalised P-51H:

Regards,

Greg

Very interesting. Where did it come from?

I believe it was in an old Air Enthusiast - I will try to find the exact copy so as to be able to give you the reference information.

Regards,

Greg
 

Tailspin Turtle

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Re: USN P-51D

GTX said:
Tailspin Turtle said:
GTX said:
Speaking of Naval Mustangs, here is a drawing showing the proposed NA-133, Navalised P-51H:

Regards,

Greg

Very interesting. Where did it come from?

I believe it was in an old Air Enthusiast - I will try to find the exact copy so as to be able to give you the reference information.

Regards,

Greg

Could it be Unknown North Americans by Jared Zichek, Air Enthusiast magazine, Issue n°101, September/October 2002?
 

GTX

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Re: USN P-51D

It could be - unfortunately, my copies aren't readily available at the moment for me to check.

Regards,

Greg
 

damian2

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Re: USN P-51D

Thanks for that scan Greg!! The other pics I've seen of the trialed P-51 show an added tailhook but it's simply a bolted on affair and doesn't look like anything that would be on a production fighter. I've followed the F1J-5 (NA-133) example with the F1J-4 (navalised P-51D) where there's a semi-exposed tailhook in a lengthened tail wheel well under rudder with a cut down bottom. For the NA-133 I redrew the the tail to cut it down in line with the proposal.

I'll be following these metal blanks up with some colour profiles soon :)

1. F1J-4:

F1J-4withdroptankBlank.png


2. F1J-5:

F1J-5Blank.png


Sorry guys no colours tonight :(

D
 

Archibald

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Great thread, great pictures, great aircrafts. Love them all.
 

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Question Greg, what program do you use for your color profiles?
 

robunos

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Could it be Unknown North Americans by Jared Zichek, Air Enthusiast magazine, Issue n°101, September/October 2002?

Yep.....just found my copy out, pp. 2-8 :)

cheers,
Robin.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Sorry for spoiling the fun... but why imagine NON-STANDARD designations? The "1" was never used by the Navy for a manufacturer's first type!
 

Antonio

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

I agree with Stargazer, the North American Fury was FJ instead F1J, thus the appropiate designation for the USN Mustang would have been FJ.
 

airman

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

North American NA-133 cool navalized P-51 B)
 

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Ryan Crierie provided me with some BuAer and NAA documentation on the NA-133. In summary, there was a Navy military requirements conference in July 1944 which produced "performance characteristics for future VF (fighter) types". It specifically requested that proposals be solicited for a liquid-cooled engine interceptor that met those requirements, probably over continued concern about the kamikaze threat. The requirements seem unlikely to be fulfillable: among other things, the time to climb to 30,000 feet was only five minutes, quicker than the F8F Bearcat or F2G could get to 20,000 feet. The BuAer engineering division responded a month later with a request for more specifics on the request, such as armament and armor details, engine ratings to be used for the interceptor climb requirement, stall speed, etc. Reading between the lines, the response suggests that the engineering division wasn't impressed by the feasibility of the product from the conference. The response also stated that the proposal request would not be limited to liquid-cooled engines, but would solicit air-cooled engine designs and ones with a piston engine combined with a jet.

At the same time as the engineering division response, George Spangenberg appears to have drafted a letter that the BuAer Chief sent to the Chief of Naval Operations stating that the Bureau would solicit proposals for a liquid-cooled engine fighter but comparative studies "indicated that the use of an air-cooled engine resulted in a superior airplane to meet current carrier requirements." In any event, the Grumman F8F Bearcat had just flown, representing the pinnacle of interceptor performance with existing supercharging.

The North American Detail Specification is dated 14 October 1944. It includes a simplified three-view drawing basically identical to the one that Greg posted: The tail hook installation relative to the rudder is a bit different and the position of the wing when folded is not shown. North American also submitted a proposal for a fighter, NA-134, powered solely by a jet engine. BuAer elected to contract for the jet as the FJ-1, although the NA-133 design was considered "very attractive in certain respects."

It now is clear that the P-51D evaluation aboard Shangri-La in November 1944 was in support of this activity.
 

Antonio

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

damian2, why F1J-4 and F1J-5 instead of FJ-1 and FJ-2?
 

damian2

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

RyanCrierie said:
Question Greg, what program do you use for your color profiles?

:D I use Paint.NET

D
 

damian2

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

pometablava said:
damian2, why F1J-4 and F1J-5 instead of FJ-1 and FJ-2?

Sorry for spoiling the fun... but why imagine NON-STANDARD designations? The "1" was never used by the Navy for a manufacturer's first type!

Seeing as it wasn't very clear on the first pagfe weather it should be FJ1, F1J or FJ-1 I went with the Hellcat/Corsair/Tigercat/Bearcat/ name USN WWII fighter, bomber, torpedo bomber here

I am open to a better, decisive naming convention.

Damian
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Tsk tsk... It's always been very clear how Navy designation worked!

Fighter = F
First type = (no number)
North American = J
First variant = -1

... hence: FJ-1 ! (the simplest possible kind of Navy designation).

If you had tried to create a third experimental bomber torpedo type for Douglas, with a second variant used for early warning, you would have ended up with...

Experimental = X
Bomber Torpedo = BT
Third type = 3
Douglas = D
Second variant = -2
Early warning = W

= XBT3D-2W, which was becoming kind of complicated...
 

robunos

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

damian2, why F1J-4 and F1J-5 instead of FJ-1 and FJ-2?

at least it makes it fairly obvious that these are what-ifs........


cheers,
Robin.
 

damian2

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Stargazer2006 said:
Tsk tsk... It's always been very clear how Navy designation worked!

Fighter = F
First type = (no number)
North American = J
First variant = -1

... hence: FJ-1 ! (the simplest possible kind of Navy designation).

If you had tried to create a third experimental bomber torpedo type for Douglas, with a second variant used for early warning, you would have ended up with...

Experimental = X
Bomber Torpedo = BT
Third type = 3
Douglas = D
Second variant = -2
Early warning = W

= XBT3D-2W, which was becoming kind of complicated...

See what happens when your main interest lies after '65? Thanks for that!!! :) At least they now have proper names!!!

D
 

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Here's the general view drawing from what I found entirely by accident at the NHC, I think it was misfiled or under something not incredibly descriptive.
 

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damian2

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Re: USN P-51D - added reworked F1J-4 and F1J-5...

Hi All!!

Here's the FJ-1 with some paint on. The eagle eyed among you will notice it's VF-3 again <_<

FJ-1withdroptankVF-349.png




D
 

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My dad was a Navy pilot and said the Navy loved the P-51 because of its range mostly. The main reason he said the navy didn't adopt the p-51 was that they could get two corsairs or hellcats in the space of one p-51. Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
 

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Ah Photobucket, you asshole... biggest theft in Internet history... idiots.
 

RAP

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Sorry Archibald?
 

RAP

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I cut the name off when I scanned the photo which had the initials J.B. in the bottom right hand corner. I assume this is Reynold Brown which is the name on another photo I posted of what appears to be an early TF-51 over on the Mustang Variant thread.
 

Mark Nankivil

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I cut the name off when I scanned the photo which had the initials J.B. in the bottom right hand corner. I assume this is Reynold Brown which is the name on another photo I posted of what appears to be an early TF-51 over on the Mustang Variant thread.

Nice art - thanks. Possibly P-51H based?

That's my kind of used bookstore! Mark
 

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