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USN Cruiser Submarines 1919-1920

red admiral

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Details are in the pictures, which are in the public domain, recently released from the US Naval Historical Centre.

The drawings are from books of SpringStyles, essentially a complied group of designs that are worked out in draught format.
 

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Antonio

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Wow, I thank you very much for that pics, red admiral. That USN Cruise Subs it's a highly interesting subject

Regards,

Antonio
 

red admiral

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No problem, just don't ask me what they were smoking. These are some of the saner USN designs from the period, my personal favourite being a design that put 14" guns onto the Omaha hull.

I'll have a trawl and see if I can find anything else interesting.
 

TinWing

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red admiral said:
Details are in the pictures, which are in the public domain, recently released from the US Naval Historical Centre.

The drawings are from books of SpringStyles, essentially a complied group of designs that are worked out in draught format.

I tried searching the site and all I came up with were the well known 1939-44 drawings. Do you have a link?
 

canisd

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Website
wolfsshipyard.mystarship.com
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/?M=D

They are all in a directory that contains the WW2 era drawings currently posted on the site, plus many more drawings from WW1 to the 1920's but that haven't been posted on the main page. The are CV, BB. BC, CA, CL, DD, and support vessel Spring Styles there, but the file names are numeric with no idea what you will find until you click on it. The newer ones have been uploaded in the past year or so, so your best bet is to sort the list by date and just start and the newest and work your way down. It looks like they have even posted new drawings as of yesterday!
 

red admiral

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I'll have a trawl through them and try and sort them out into various families.
 

McTodd

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Brilliant stuff, Red Admiral, thank you!

I've had a trawl through and there's tons of amazing stuff. Among others, a weird 16-in BB design of 1912, several versions of the 1912 Torpedo Battleship, many Small BBs, all the Tillmans, early BC designs (1912 onwards), the list goes on!
 

McTodd

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pometablava said:
1912 Torpedo Battleship
Could you please add more info about that?
Righto, though I'll be brief as I'm at work (on a Sunday!) and about to leave... Friedman (US Battleships) discusses studies carried out in 1912 for a heavily armoured large vessel with a heavy torpedo armament. Some had heavy guns, some none. All were referred to as Torpedo Battleships. They were to operate with the Fleet and then peel off to attack an enemy battleline (IIRC). Friedman's book only shows one sketch - but now there are four Spring Style configurations available:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/s584019.jpg
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/s584020.jpg
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/s584021.jpg
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s-file/s584022.jpg

Oddly enough, around the same time the Imperial Russian Navy toyed with a similar concept (variously termed either a Torpedo Cruiser or Torpedo Battleship):
http://xoomer.alice.it/bk/NWS/Russian_Imperial_Navy/Torpedo_Cruiser/image-html/ussian_Torpedo_Cruiser_191.html

Right, I'm off home now...
 

McTodd

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Friedman's book shows a sketch of a Torpedo Battleship dated 24 July 1912, with 4x14in guns (two twins), 40x6in and 8xTT. It is not the same as any of the four linked to in my previous post.

The designs were prompted by Lt Cdr F H Schofield, who had been pressing for a moderate sized, fast, heavily armoured torpedo ship (but with a maximum gun size of 5in) since 1907. He envisaged a speed of 23kts (at a time when the battlefleet speed was 18kts), with two such vessels attached to the battle line. The Naval War College gamed the concept, with a fleet of eight 18kt battleships on one side, and one of six 18kt battleships plus two 23kt Schofield vessels on the other. With only one 'Schofield', a fleet could never secure an advantage, but a fleet with two 'Schofields' nearly always won.

However, the advent of the Dreadnought, with her 21kt speed, and the Invincibles, with 25kts, soured the Naval War College to the concept. The Naval War College Committee concluded that an Invincible was probably as effective as a Schofield, while of greater general usefulness.

Schofield pressed again in 1911, with the backing of C&R, and more games were played, this time with battlecruisers included in the enemy fleet. Schofield's ships were always destroyed before being able to press home. Schofield felt the games were rigged againist him, but by now the War College and General Board had lost interest.

Oddly, however, C&R continued their investigations under R H Robinson, head of the Design Branch. The result was the series of Spring Styles above, plus the Friedman drawing, much larger and faster vessels than in Schofield's original concept, as, I suppose, would befit the new dreadnought era.
 

Just call me Ray

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Torpedoes are far more range-limited than naval guns (even modern torpedoes are short-range weapons compared to everything else in the inventory, especially missiles) and require a long lead time, which even a slow ship can maneuver out of. Fast and small boats and destroyers can of course make up for it; large ships, not so much, even if they are fast. Not to mention, they would've been going into WWII with the notorious Mk. 13 which was just flat-out a very lousy torpedo in 1942.

I would imagine torpedo-carrying aircraft would make the concept obsolete once and for all.
 

McTodd

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Just call me Ray said:
Torpedoes are far more range-limited than naval guns (even modern torpedoes are short-range weapons compared to everything else in the inventory, especially missiles) and require a long lead time, which even a slow ship can maneuver out of.
True, but Schofield's Torpedo Battleships were always to act against enemy battle lines in fleet actions, not against individual vessels.

In a sense, Scholfield's (and the Russians') studies were updated version of HMS Polyphemus, which was always primarily a torpedo ship, the ram being distinctly secondary.
 

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