USAF/USN 6th Gen Fighters - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS News & Analysis [2008- 2025]

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Digital Century series is dead for manned NGAD, has been for a number of years. It was less the big contractors won and more that PPBE just wasn't flexible enough for that to happen. Portions of it remain with CCA.

Nope, far from dead. As of early summer it was very much alive. USAF wants to produce small numbers at a time and constantly iterate. 3-6 years for each airframe iteration, with 8-16 year service life.

Each iteration could be made by a different contractor. They want to get away from “winner take all” and use CCA to incubate new contractors.
 
China also has a rapidly aging population and significant fiscal issues.
Agreed. The recent Funan-Techno canal scandal is a perfect example of this. Plus the real estate bubble, mass exodus of small investors to Vietnam and growing civil unrest (the official house bombing, Su-57 visit crash etc).

Massive manufacturing surplus is cool until automation and raw material issues slams... One could think less of the platform and more of the tactics, then use said tactics to inform platform choices.
 
Nope, far from dead. As of early summer it was very much alive. USAF wants to produce small numbers at a time and constantly iterate. 3-6 years for each airframe iteration, with 8-16 year service life.

Each iteration could be made by a different contractor. They want to get away from “winner take all” and use CCA to incubate new contractors.
Which sources (research papers, publications, reports etc) have said this summer that century series approach is still happening for manned component?
Can you please be so kind to provide a link or two, not behind a paywall?
 
The world factory only works though when the world provides it the materials it needs. China is in no way energy independent, it cannot mine most of the minerals it needs to manufacture to military goods it requires and cannot feed itself
I'd rather keep to technical part, but not only China feeds itself and is rather resource rich(it's a large chunk of rather mountainous Asia) - Russia is next door, SEA next door, Central Asia next door.

Also...by 2030 I'd start questioning if any sort of blockade of China is still so indisputable.

Like, empire of Japan was also quite well contained on 6.12.1941. in few months containment turned into Japanese fortress, and (rather formidable) forces stretched from Rangoon to Wake were simply given to a concentrated opponent for breakfast.

Optimist will of course say that things like USMC FS2030, army Philippines structure, changes to attritable NGAD, B-21s in Australia are designed to bring fight closer to China.

WW2 enthusiast will see much darker analogies from the past.

Summary (and I really would like to stop talks about China collapse, Russia suddenly turning into a bulwark of liberal world order overnight, and other divine interventions) - it's a fight without easy answers. Even true Damocles sword of east Asia, demographics, will hit China much later (but is already eating hard Japan, and frankly I am in awe what Korea wants to do - both key american allies and only beacons of hope for actual shipbuilding prowess)

By 2030s fight within this region is for US to win and China to lose; US can't plan to win it without creativity anymore (or it has to be forced before, in a true Thucydides trap fashion).
So this thread should imho focus on discussion to technical aspects of these two aircraft (along with CCA) and fight in general.
 
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I'd disagree. Politics informs doctrine and in turn design. What needs moderation is people's altitude and not getting out of line.
 
As such, the sweet spot for NGAD as far as range is a 1,000-,1,200 nm combat radius and 6-8 AMRAAM sized weapons. Tankers could top off NGAD as well as 4th and 5th Gen fighters while under the protection of Japanese airspace, on their way to Taiwan. Strikes into the interior of China would be more difficult but could be performed with B-21s with CCAs.

The aircraft you describe is only modestly more capable in range and payload than F-35. I think that is the conclusion USAF has come to now; I am not convinced that was what the original manned NGAD was.

I think a recent strategic considerations changed the concept: the proliferation of IRBMs made basing further away pointless and the change in commitment/posture of US allies (especially Japan, as you note) opened up alternative basing options. All these options are also vulnerable to missile strikes, but there are vastly more of them to service. So the USAF is focusing on dispersed operations within the denial zone instead of increasing distance (with the exception of strategic bombers; I think these are still intended to operate largely from outside the theater).

I think that is the plan *now*; I do not think it was the plan in 2018. I suspect the experience of the war in Ukraine also influenced thinking as well - the ZSU continues to survive and launch small numbers of sorties despite the fact any base could be readily hit any day.
 
The world factory only works though when the world provides it the materials it needs. China is in no way energy independent, it cannot mine most of the minerals it needs to manufacture to military goods it requires and cannot feed itself.


https://www.iwkoeln.de/en/studies/s...China also has the highest,18 to 1 for grain.
China also has a rapidly aging population and significant fiscal issues.

What does a 2030 China look like blocked from most shipping, global financial markets, without export markets for its goods and without the raw materials coming in to supply the factories. That smells more like internal insurrection than the world factory.

On the opposite side you have the US which would have access to most of the raw materials it needs domestically or via reasonably safe import and can more than feed itself. The National Defense Stockpile is woefully inadequate today but a national emergency would see that rise albeit slowly.

Conclusion is I would count on the US and its Allies being able to sustain a global conflict for a lot longer than its competitors ie China, Russia, Iran.

Such a blockade would only occur after PRC military success. That seems like a poor fallback position. Ideally there should be sufficient deterrence to prevent action in the first place; there is no shortage of examples of nations choosing a militarily aggressive option that was diametrically opposed to their financial interests. A couple of them are currently ongoing…
 
Nope, far from dead. As of early summer it was very much alive. USAF wants to produce small numbers at a time and constantly iterate. 3-6 years for each airframe iteration, with 8-16 year service life.

Each iteration could be made by a different contractor. They want to get away from “winner take all” and use CCA to incubate new contractors.

For CCA definitely, but for manned NGAD? That is not the impression I am getting.
 
So could the NGAD ultimately be a stop of point to test technology for an unmanned seventh generation fighter? The NGAD could well be the last manned fighter that we see enter service with the USAF.
 
War tells us that men are needed at the tip of the spear. There would ever be a platoon soldier.*
Why would you think it would be different in the air?
The problem in the vision is extreem simplification.

*for example, the cannon never replaced the long gun. The pistol never the blade. The blade never hand combat skills.
 
I see your point TomcatVIP. But there has to be a time when humans are ultimately replaced by unmanned fighters and bombers in the world's air forces and the sixth generation is the transition period, look at the CCA for example that is where we are going in the future and it will be the same when the seventh generation fighters start to appear.
 
Such a blockade would only occur after PRC military success.

A blockade would be imposed the moment the PRC decides to invade Taiwan and attempts to send PLA forces across the Taiwan strait.
 
I believe that title still belongs to The War Zone
For all their flaws, they're at least easier to stomach than the Sandboxx and Defense Updates YouTube videos that some here incessantly link to. I think "churnalism" may be an apt way to describe those.
 
A blockade would be imposed the moment the PRC decides to invade Taiwan and attempts to send PLA forces across the Taiwan strait.

That likely would have no bearing on the outcome of a cross straight conflict. It would be decided one way or another before a lack of resources means anything to the PRCs production capacity. It’s a punishment the losers can dole out, not a major military consideration for China.
 
That likely would have no bearing on the outcome of a cross straight conflict.

It very likely would as the PRC for example depends on foreign imports for about 80% of its' energy needs (Crude-oil and LNG), if those are completely blockaded China will quickly run low on fuel. IIRC the PRC is also dependent on foreign imports for about 80% of its food and fertiliser needs too, those being blockaded would also quickly have an effect on its' population.
 
For all their flaws, they're at least easier to stomach than the Sandboxx and Defense Updates YouTube videos that some here incessantly link to. I think "churnalism" may be an apt way to describe those.

TWZ is at least a good place to hear about something current so you can look it up in a better source. I feel almost all of their articles could be single paragraphs; they really drag a topic out with a lot of unnecessary supposition and back story/links.
 
It very likely would as the PRC for example depends on foreign imports for about 80% of its' energy needs (Crude-oil and LNG), if those are completely blockaded China will quickly run low on fuel. IIRC the PRC is also dependent on foreign imports for about 80% of its food and fertiliser needs too, those being blockaded would also quickly have an effect on its' population.

I do not have any of the stats handy, but I would expect the PRC petroleum reserve to be able to sustain a major war for months or more. At least some of their oil imports are via Russia by pipeline, though I think the majority is still by ship. We are off topic however. NGAD/CCAs goal is to deter a conflict or alternatively make it in winnable regardless of the economic situation.
 
You seem to have the wrong impression.

Could you point me in the right direction then? As far as I can tell it is a single prime contract award like other fighter programs, and I have not heard anything about shorting airframe life or development cycles in a couple years.
 
You seem to have the wrong impression.


Personally, I did think that Will Roper & Co were pushing for absolutely all programs to go that way, very much including NGAD/PCA.

Furthermore, I did think that Roper & Co might have had enough power & influence during the 2018-2020 period to get their preferences implemented as official policy. But I also thought that from 2021 until the money ran out in late 2023, Frank Kendall was calling the shots, and not interested in the radicalism of the short service life / rapid replacement model, nor in concurrency, at least for the big ticket, crewed NGAD/PCA.

I thought Kendall had nixed the short lifespan / concurrent development / rapid iteration model for the crewed fighter but kept it for CCAs, while nevertheless heavily embracing other aspects of the NGAM like government owned IP, MOSA, greater government involvement in systems integration, etc.
 
TWZ is at least a good place to hear about something current so you can look it up in a better source.

"TWZ" largely repeats information from else where - such as articles from other sites, forums, etc. One poorly sourced article gets repeated, with changes, over and over across different sites. Along the way the meaning changes. For example, the whole "B-21 as NGAD" idea was based on a poorly written article based on a single, prompted statement from DoD. They (Defense News) asked if B-21 could be part of NGAD, the Air Force said they were keeping all options open. They could have asked if a MiG-31 FIREFOX could be part of NGAD and would have gotten the same answer. And this single statement became an article postulating that B-21 was going to have some air to air role, and that was repeated as fact by other sites, etc.

These sources of information say that the NGAD program has been secret, shrouded in secrecy, etc. They were surprised when Roper talking about the demonstrator - which DoD had been talking about in public for years at that point. There has been a deluge of information about NGAD in public for many, many years that "TWZ" and similar sites have not reported on.

"TWZ" is not a good place to hear about things that you want to look up on "a better source". You will end up missing most of the story, and when you look things up on other sources you're going to find much the same BS as on "TWZ"

For example a 2022 article from "Breaking Defense" stated:
The Air Force first flew a prototype version of the NGAD fighter 2020, but officials at the time declined to disclose information about the plane or its manufacturer.

There is nothing in that statement that is accurate. Yet this has been repeated as if it were fact alllllll over other "articles".

Could you point me in the right direction then? As far as I can tell it is a single prime contract award like other fighter programs, and I have not heard anything about shorting airframe life or development cycles in a couple years.

Testimony given in congressional hearings is a good start. DoD has been very consistent in their statements to Congress about NGAD over the years.

Furthermore, I did think that Roper & Co might have had enough power & influence during the 2018-2020 period to get their preferences implemented as official policy. But I also thought that from 2021 until the money ran out in late 2023, Frank Kendall was calling the shots, and not interested in the radicalism of the short service life / rapid replacement model, nor in concurrency, at least for the big ticket, crewed NGAD/PCA.

I thought Kendall had nixed the short lifespan / concurrent development / rapid iteration model for the crewed fighter but kept it for CCAs, while nevertheless heavily embracing other aspects of the NGAM like government owned IP, MOSA, greater government involvement in systems integration, etc.

This seems to have been the result of a few comments Kendall has made at various points. At one point he said that some of Roper's initiatives had been "optimistic" and "overhyped" and he was skeptical without hard data (I have been unable to find the original source of these comments). At another point he said some of Ropers ideas did not scale well to a very complex manned aircraft.

The reality is that many of Roper's ideas became core concepts for a number of different programs. Kendall did get his hard data and has gotten behind many of the initiatives that are associated with Roper.

Again, statements made to Congress over the years have made this clear. Agile development, moving "at the pace of relevance", reducing sustainment costs and shortening service lifetimes, etc. And importantly, "constant competition". Every aspect will be competed, constantly, throughout the life of the program. It will be constantly competed, updated, changing contractors on what they hope is short cycles.

Many of the "questions" in this thread have already been addressed or answered by DoD in public statements about the program. Many of the things that have been speculated about in this thread have also been addressed by public statements made by DoD.

For example:

- The Air Force is planning around 2 CCAs for each manned 6th gen aircraft, and 2 CCAs for each of "some number of" F-35s, for a total of 1000 CCAs.

- The Navy 6th gen manned aircraft is primarily a strike fighter. It is intended to replace the Hornet. The Navy considers FA-XX a part of NGAD, and has already flown a demonstrator.

- The Air Force wants to end up with a mix of NGAD, F-35, F-15EX, and F-16. Four fighter airframes with additional CCAs. The F-16 is being retained for SEAD, the apparently are not planning for the F-35 to take that over.

- A big reason for buying F-15EX is the number of "rails" and the ability to carry oversized weapons.
 
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Is it possible for USAF to stop change is mind every two weeks ? how many time they need to stop it and give a contract ? If they continue like that they will have a new fighter in 2050. They postponed NGAD decision every month. Surely it is time to change administration and having a real decision, China si running faster the first 6th gen will be Chinese for sure.
The administration is changing, and the one coming in wants to kill the manned fighter so the one going out has punted the decision to them.
 
The administration is changing, and the one coming in wants to kill the manned fighter so the one going out has punted the decision to them.
Aside from Musk thinking he's going to be another McNamara and push some wunderwaffe is there anything to suggest a supposedly strong-on-defense administration would force such a thing?
 
The administration is changing, and the one coming in wants to kill the manned fighter so the one going out has punted the decision to them.
CCA bullshit can't replace a plane like the F-22, it is like fighting a jet with piston engine. Musk is saying bullshit, he want to sell is starlink service for the drone fleet , but soon the conflict will be in space, to shot down the CCA fleet shoot the Starlink satellite detonate a nuclear weapon in orbit an bye bye the marvelous drone fleet. There is nothing better than a human in a real fighter , they must look at the Ukraine war carefully with no dominance in the air no win. Musk is a genious for Space but know nothing about military aviation.
 
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Aside from Musk thinking he's going to be another McNamara and push some wunderwaffe is there anything to suggest a supposedly strong-on-defense administration would force such a thing?
The conversations between the Services' leadership and the incoming national security team are happening right now, and this is how it works. If you're on the way out and the incoming team says they're killing a program you either do them a favor and kill it early or you punt it into their lap so they have to to do the hard work themselves. Congress might keep it alive if enough of them discover spines, but this is a big nail in the USAF program.

NFN: The incoming is a deficit hawk administration, saying "I'm strong" doesn't equate to being strong.
 
Congress might keep it alive if enough of them discover spines, but this is a big nail in the USAF program.

If anything is likely to keep any of these at risk programmes it's pork-barrel politics.
 
The conversations between the Services' leadership and the incoming national security team are happening right now, and this is how it works. If you're on the way out and the incoming team says they're killing a program you either do them a favor and kill it early or you punt it into their lap so they have to to do the hard work themselves. Congress might keep it alive if enough of them discover spines, but this is a big nail in the USAF program.

NFN: The incoming is a deficit hawk administration, saying "I'm strong" doesn't equate to being strong.
In face of China and Russia you must be strong if you are not they will be the master of the world. Russia have war gaming army and China a more and more numerous and technological army there is no time to make pause , Kendall mistake is the same than the stop of the F-22 line in worst.
 
Is it possible for USAF to stop change is mind every two weeks ?

Apparently the review has concluded but the current administration is going to fund the industry teams using the NGAD contract and push the decision on what to do on the program to the next administration which is the right thing to do given the transition period and the size and importance of the program. As it is, a lot of the budget submissions are going to be revised by the incoming administration.
 
I wonder if the mass drone feature is going to be something that turns into a treaty item one day, kind of like nuclear weapons.

If the US can't outproduce China, what options do they have?

1. Develop an effective asymmetric technological advantage to render mass drones ineffective
2. Lower the threshold for nuclear weapons usage based on the deployment of drone swarms
3. Treaty done swarms out of being a conventional concern

Betting on #1 & #3, would probably ease some of the burdens they're faced with regarding supply chain & manufacturing infrastructure. If countries don't wanna play ball, then apply leverage.
 
I wonder if the mass drone feature is going to be something that turns into a treaty item one day, kind of like nuclear weapons.

If the US can't outproduce China, what options do they have?

1. Develop an effective asymmetric technological advantage to render mass drones ineffective
2. Lower the threshold for nuclear weapons usage based on the deployment of drone swarms
3. Treaty done swarms out of being a conventional concern

Betting on #1 & #3, would probably ease some of the burdens they're faced with regarding supply chain & manufacturing infrastructure.
Even if "drone swarms" were something which could realistically be addressed by treaty, half the American political class thinks "treaty" is a dirty word.
 
Apparently the review has concluded but the current administration is going to fund the industry teams using the NGAD contract and push the decision on what to do on the program to the next administration which is the right thing to do given the transition period and the size and importance of the program. As it is, a lot of the budget submissions are going to be revised by the incoming administration.
I hope you are right it is time to go on NGAD.
 
Personally, I did think that Will Roper & Co were pushing for absolutely all programs to go that way, very much including NGAD/PCA.

Furthermore, I did think that Roper & Co might have had enough power & influence during the 2018-2020 period to get their preferences implemented as official policy. But I also thought that from 2021 until the money ran out in late 2023, Frank Kendall was calling the shots, and not interested in the radicalism of the short service life / rapid replacement model, nor in concurrency, at least for the big ticket, crewed NGAD/PCA.

I thought Kendall had nixed the short lifespan / concurrent development / rapid iteration model for the crewed fighter but kept it for CCAs, while nevertheless heavily embracing other aspects of the NGAM like government owned IP, MOSA, greater government involvement in systems integration, etc.
Rapid iteration makes sense for the CCAs. First iteration is just to develop tactics and verify conops works in reality. second iteration is the first one you plan on fighting with. And as AI gets better, you can push more decisions to the AI instead of to the WSO in the manned plane.



- The Air Force is planning around 2 CCAs for each manned 6th gen aircraft, and 2 CCAs for each of "some number of" F-35s, for a total of 1000 CCAs.
That's less than I expected, and I think it'll grow over time.


- The Navy 6th gen manned aircraft is primarily a strike fighter. It is intended to replace the Hornet. The Navy considers FA-XX a part of NGAD, and has already flown a demonstrator.
Expected, but I still think it's going to try to get the BARCAP/Fleet Air Defense role back as well.


- The Air Force wants to end up with a mix of NGAD, F-35, F-15EX, and F-16. Four fighter airframes with additional CCAs. The F-16 is being retained for SEAD, the apparently are not planning for the F-35 to take that over.
That greatly surprises me.


- A big reason for buying F-15EX is the number of "rails" and the ability to carry oversized weapons.
I mean, have you seen the pictures of the Eagle 2s with double rails EVERYWHERE? 8x AMRAAMs on the CFTs, and maybe 8 more on the wings. Plus 4x AIM9s for fun. Or another 4x AMRAAMs, for a total of 20 missiles.
 
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