The Search for a New Frigate for Germany

Aegrotare said:
So in youre opinion there is not a single good frigate in Europe? Because there is not a single Ship that can defend against hypersonics.
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If they can't be refitted to deal with hypersonics, yes. I don't think there is a single good frigate in Europe.
 
Scott Kenny said:
That's assuming that the various Corvettes don't need any coverage, since all the K130s have for AA is a pair of RAM launchers!
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42 blk 2 RAM cells(reloadable) is a very respectable AAW suit against current expectations.
Scott Kenny said:
64x ESSM is great, till someone starts throwing hypersonics at you. Now you need SM6s. Which means something like 16 cells that are Strike Length, in addition to the 16 cells for ESSMs. In your GP/ASW frigate.
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You don't need SM-6 against hypersonics. Certainly not for self-defense.
Functionally useful SM-6 outfit against modern threats will cost you another frigate in sensor costs - and at that point, you may as well build a full destroyer.

Note that the cancellation class was killed, among other things, by strike cells, despite not even having a sensor fit to really extract any benefit from SM-6(and that was a very powerful sensor package). It's a hefty price for having an additional, rather questionable, NIFC-CA option.
 
EmoBirb said:
When the RN is a rotting corpse and Scandinavia mostly fielding small corvettes and not much larger frigates, then other countries have to step up to secure the North Atlantic together with the Americans and in part the French as well.
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Huh? Norway getting new 8000 ton Type 26, Denmark got 6500 ton AAW frigates, Sweden getting 4500 ton AAW-FDI frigates, Finland gets new 4000 ton "corvettes".
 
Scott Kenny said:
Knowing the German Navy? None.
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Given that the Baltic sea is not only a concern of the German Navy, but that of Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Poland too, they'll provide the necessary escorts. Even then I can imagine at least one of the eight F127s being deployed in the Baltic.

Either way, the main concern isn't the Baltic Sea anyway, in case of a shooting war that entire pond is a death zone. The main area of operation will the Northern Atlantic and the GIUK Gap in particular. That's where a modern, central European, ASW frigate is needed the most. And in the Northern Atlantic these ships will almost never sail alone, but as part of larger task forces of ASW groups. And there the threat of Russian land bases missiles is virtually zero, unless you imagine Russia launching an ICBM against a single frigate.
 
IRT said:
Huh? Norway getting new 8000 ton Type 26, Denmark got 6500 ton AAW frigates, Sweden getting 4500 ton AAW-FDI frigates, Finland gets new 4000 ton "corvettes".
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Any proper AAW ship these days runs north of 10.000 tons. No Navy in Scandinavia fields such a ship and as far as I'm aware isn't planning to do so any time soon. For the most part that's fine because these countries should be most concerned about counter submarine operations. Full on AAW is best left to the capable naval forces of Western Europe and North America in the Atlantic.

The F127 is also another manifestation of the US shifting priorities towards the Indo-Pacific. Italy with their DDX will follow and I expect France to also develop a powerful next generation AAW destroyer. How the Dutch will work out their Future Air Defender is to be seen. Either way a shift in US priorities means that central and western Europe have to step up to secure the Atlantic against a threat mostly only relevant to Europe anyway. France has led naval Europe thus far, consequently Germany is now stepping up as well. Scandinavia just isn't going to field large fleets of BMD destroyers, it cannot be held against them, as I already said. Only the UK is squandering their part as it seems.
 
shin_getter said:
One wonders what minor (surface) navies are good for? It isn't doing sea control or denial.

Maybe it is better to just have weapon containers that can be used to fight a land war if it is not a naval war, and just use container ships otherwise, if odds of naval action is low.
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This is likely correct.
If the purpose of your navy is defensive you are essentially escorting container ships, which does not require hot-rod destroyers who's speed would be capped by the speed of the convoy. Container ships may well escort themselves with container-based AAW/ASW modules, escorted by fishing boats with (container-based) towed sonar and lightweight torpedoes.
The US Navy is an outlier in that it is focused on land attack and provocation, destroyers need to keep up with the carriers.
 
Scott Kenny said:
If they can't be refitted to deal with hypersonics, yes. I don't think there is a single good frigate in Europe.
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The Italian-French Horizon are being refitted with new radars and with Aster B1NT against hypersonic missiles
https://eurosam.com/contract-for-the-mid-life-ugrade-mlu-of-the-horizon-class-frigates/
Regarding anti-air warfare, the new generation of PAAMS & LRR is a very significant upgrade and the system will be able to defeat the threats of the decade to come as missiles (hypersonic, ballistic, supersonic sea-skimmer, high velocity cruise), UAVs and highly maneuvering aircrafts, in a saturation attack scenario.
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The Italian DDX, FREMM EVO or the Greek, Swedish and French FDI are also ready for Aster B1NT.
 
SuperShark said:
Container ships may well escort themselves with container-based AAW/ASW modules, escorted by fishing boats with (container-based) towed sonar and lightweight torpedoes.
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Assuming you don't get an unmanned Heli then its likely some heavyweight torpedos and or anti torpedo systems
 
Armed container ships, armed fishing boats...I don't think I have to explain why this would be deeply problematic for commerce? No merchant ship is going to escort itself, because most ports would deny entry to a ship that's covertly armed and because such nonsense takes away valuable space for cargo.

Commerce escort has been the primary mission of most Navy's in history. Fighting against equivalent forces on sea is an equally important mission but mostly secondary, as in most of the time you'll be escorting commerce rather than engaging an opposing destroyer.
 
kqcke for you said:
Assuming you don't get an unmanned Heli then its likely some heavyweight torpedos and or anti torpedo systems
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Yeah I suspect manned or unmanned helicopters with dipping sonar and torpedoes would form the backbone of hunting parties
 
EmoBirb said:
Armed container ships, armed fishing boats...I don't think I have to explain why this would be deeply problematic for commerce? No merchant ship is going to escort itself, because most ports would deny entry to a ship that's covertly armed and because such nonsense takes away valuable space for cargo.

Commerce escort has been the primary mission of most Navy's in history. Fighting against equivalent forces on sea is an equally important mission but mostly secondary, as in most of the time you'll be escorting commerce rather than engaging an opposing destroyer.
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Overtly armed. Not Q-ships.
If you are in a conflict in which you expect your commercial vessels to be destroyed then some gloves need to come off.
I do not subscribe to the belief that a ship is the best way to destroy another ship, this is better to suited to air power - before the proliferation of naval air power there were opportunities for 'under dog' plays that no longer exist, a token navy of half a dozen frigates is not going to cut muster and funds should be placed elsewhere.
 
Can we ditch the definitely not German Frigate talk.

If people want to argue wider strategic issues go to an appropriate threat or start one yourself in the appropriate section.
 
F126 seems a bit short on endurance for the Atlantic.
 
MadRat said:
F126 seems a bit short on endurance for the Atlantic.
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Well, good news that it got canned then. :)
If you mean the F-128 (MEKO A200), the South Africans seem to be quite pleased with them, it has 50% more range than the ships they are replacing (the F-123) in the Bundesmarine or roughly the same range of a FREMM.

Cheers
 
F128, yes, has between 4,000 and 4,100 nm range at 18 knot cruise. Seems awfully short for the Atlantic.
 
EmoBirb said:
Any proper AAW ship these days runs north of 10.000 tons. No Navy in Scandinavia fields such a ship and as far as I'm aware isn't planning to do so any time soon. For the most part that's fine because these countries should be most concerned about counter submarine operations. Full on AAW is best left to the capable naval forces of Western Europe and North America in the Atlantic.

The F127 is also another manifestation of the US shifting priorities towards the Indo-Pacific. Italy with their DDX will follow and I expect France to also develop a powerful next generation AAW destroyer. How the Dutch will work out their Future Air Defender is to be seen. Either way a shift in US priorities means that central and western Europe have to step up to secure the Atlantic against a threat mostly only relevant to Europe anyway. France has led naval Europe thus far, consequently Germany is now stepping up as well. Scandinavia just isn't going to field large fleets of BMD destroyers, it cannot be held against them, as I already said. Only the UK is squandering their part as it seems.
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Then today no European ship is a proper AAW ship since all are below 8000 tons and max 48 VLS cells.. the Nordic countries will have 18 ships of frigate size in 10 years time.. and combined the have less than 30 million population, not bad by any means.
 
Titus K said:
The Italian-French Horizon are being refitted with new radars and with Aster B1NT against hypersonic missiles
https://eurosam.com/contract-for-the-mid-life-ugrade-mlu-of-the-horizon-class-frigates/

The Italian DDX, FREMM EVO or the Greek, Swedish and French FDI are also ready for Aster B1NT.
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Good! Out-freaking-standing, in fact!

No sarcasm, I am very glad that there are ships capable of being upgraded to deal with the modern threat, if only because upgrades are cheaper than buying a whole new ship.


MadRat said:
F128, yes, has between 4,000 and 4,100 nm range at 18 knot cruise. Seems awfully short for the Atlantic.
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You're definitely not going to spend much time patrolling in the middle, no. But IIRC even the Burkes have about that range.
 
IRT said:
Then today no European ship is a proper AAW ship
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Indeed, that's why Germany develops the F127, a proper AAW and BMD destroyer, and why Italy develops DDX as a successor to their Horizonte-Class destroyers.

That F124, Type 45 and Horizonte are all lack luster AAW ships in this day and age, shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, it's also not a particularly controversial statement. Especially when one looks at what the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and Americans rock by comparison. And it's not like the aerial threat in Europe has diminished, the threat of aircraft and missiles is bigger than ever, not only in Europe, but also the Mediterranean and on a Global level in general.

So yes, in my eyes right now there isn't a single AAW ship that's capable enough to handle current and near future threats. But luckily various European naval forces are aware of this and have ongoing programs to remidy this deficiency.

Just as an example:
I think you can see how one is an AD frigate devised in an age of unprecedented peace in Europe and how the other is a serious AAW destroyer more in line with what the Americans and Chinese field rather than any previous European frigate.

F124​
F127​
~ 5700 tons​
~ 12000 tons​
32 Cell Mk 41​
96 Cell Mk 41​
143m long​
178m long​
17.4m beam​
24m beam​
6m draft​
7.8m draft​
29 knots​
32 knots​
SMART-L​
AN/SPY-6(V)1​
 
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TomS said:
The Hartpunkt article specifically says strike-length VLS, a departure from the RAN spec. But even if tactical, a base of 16 cells (64 missiles), plus a 21-cell RAM launcher, is fine for an ASW ship with no pretensions of strike capacity. It's exactly the same capacity planned for the F126s.
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I disagree because I distrust helicopters (also multicopter UAVs) as delivery vehicle for lightweight torpedoes.
An ASW missile such as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K745A1_Red_Shark or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_07_vertical-launch_anti-submarine_rocket or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RUM-139_VL-ASROC
takes an entire Mk 41 VLS spot, no quad-packing.

Furthermore, I suppose it makes sense to have the option of launching a trio salvo of ASW missiles to form a triangle that forms a large no escape zone for a submarine (save for decoying, had kill self-defence, Alfa-like speed, extreme diving depth and technical failures, obvs.).

Now suppose you want multiple such salvoes. Three salvoes + 1 reserve missile to compensate a technical failure = 10 VLS occupied for ASW.

Personally, I arrived at 28 VLS + separate SSMs as the minimum, which means 32 VLS in practice.
 
EmoBirb said:
Armed container ships, armed fishing boats...I don't think I have to explain why this would be deeply problematic for commerce? No merchant ship is going to escort itself, because most ports would deny entry to a ship that's covertly armed and because such nonsense takes away valuable space for cargo.

Commerce escort has been the primary mission of most Navy's in history. Fighting against equivalent forces on sea is an equally important mission but mostly secondary, as in most of the time you'll be escorting commerce rather than engaging an opposing destroyer.
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Stop thinking in peacetime mode. Think in wartime mode.
No port master is going to bitch about armed American merchantmen arriving in Japan when it's at war.

The real issue is how to bribe the Filipino sailors into manning the cargo ship. They might retire after getting rich in the first three or four convoys and others might simply say no.
 
lastdingo said:
I disagree because I distrust helicopters (also multicopter UAVs) as delivery vehicle for lightweight torpedoes.
An ASW missile such as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K745A1_Red_Shark or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_07_vertical-launch_anti-submarine_rocket or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RUM-139_VL-ASROC
takes an entire Mk 41 VLS spot, no quad-packing.

Furthermore, I suppose it makes sense to have the option of launching a trio salvo of ASW missiles to form a triangle that forms a large no escape zone for a submarine (save for decoying, had kill self-defence, Alfa-like speed, extreme diving depth and technical failures, obvs.).

Now suppose you want multiple such salvoes. Three salvoes + 1 reserve missile to compensate a technical failure = 10 VLS occupied for ASW.

Personally, I arrived at 28 VLS + separate SSMs as the minimum, which means 32 VLS in practice.
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Given that Germany has given no indication of planning to acquire an ASW standoff weapon, this is an irrelevant calculation.
 
Warships are in service for about three decades with their original buyers. The ability to equip it with missiles that were neglected during original procurement is not irrelevant.
 
TomS said:
Given that Germany has given no indication of planning to acquire an ASW standoff weapon, this is an irrelevant calculation.
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Especially when they have there "ASW standoff weapon" which is the helicopter...
 
lastdingo said:
Stop thinking in peacetime mode. Think in wartime mode.
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We're not in a war and if nothing major happens we won't be in a war for many decades, except perhaps a civil war (one can only hope). In which case arming container ships is relevant in what manner?

And again, not only will entry into port be denied by third parties and unaligned countries, any kind of large scale armaments and associated sensors take away from valuable space reserved for cargo. You're cutting deep into profit margins with such nonsense. And international shipping is dependent on extremely favorable profit margins in order to be economically viable.
 
Titus K said:
very similar to the FDI deal in sweden in terms of delivery speed and scope.
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Looks good to me. This now makes 5 very capable ASW/generalist frigate types being delivered to NATO & allies before 2030. (FDI, Mogami, FREMM Evo, Pohjanmaa, and now Meko A200 DEU)

... which makes the USN look remarkably off-the-mark settling for a pair of warmed-up coast guard cutters in service by 2033
... and the RN not much better with the T26 and T31 with their obsolescent rotating radars and fitted-for-not-with weapons
... and the RCN/RAN seem intent on repeating all the USN's FFG-62 mistakes with their gold-plated, heavily customized Rivers and Hunters that may or may not be delivered by the mid 2030s

So overall a smart, low-risk and capable choice for the Deutsche Marine.
 
It's also a great news for Saab after it's domestic defeat.

H_K said:
... and the RN not much better with the T26 and T31 with their obsolescent rotating radars and fitted-for-not-with weapons
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At least the RN has T45 and someday MCV + T9x … the Norwegians on the other hand...

H_K said:
So overall a smart, low-risk and capable choice for the Deutsche Marine.
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Hey don't forget about ASWF … forget about it.
 
H_K said:
Looks good to me. This now makes 5 very capable ASW/generalist frigate types being delivered to NATO & allies before 2030. (FDI, Mogami, FREMM Evo, Pohjanmaa, and now Meko A200 DEU)
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Whats with PPA and F110?
H_K said:
... which makes the USN look remarkably off-the-mark settling for a pair of warmed-up coast guard cutters in service by 2033
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How dare you insult the great FFX
H_K said:
... and the RN not much better with the T26 and T31 with their obsolescent rotating radars and fitted-for-not-with weapons
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T26 will still be capable even for the ASW job.
H_K said:
... and the RCN/RAN seem intent on repeating all the USN's FFG-62 mistakes with their gold-plated, heavily customized Rivers and Hunters that may or may not be delivered by the mid 2030s
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Tought atleast for the RCN there all they get so its sensible they invest more.
H_K said:
So overall a smart, low-risk and capable choice for the Deutsche Marine.
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Low-risk is debatable same as capable. Okay it probaly will be but so was F126 for the mission.
 
Not cancelling F126 might have ended up being cheaper...
Now they got no choice but abide by the indutry's demands.
 
Titus K said:
€11.6 billion for 8 MEKO A-200 seems just as insane … Is labor cost the main reason these costs are so high?

The 2nd batch of Type 212CD are almost €2 billion a piece for a fairly small SSKs.
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Lack amortization. Someone says budget X billion for ships then delay or shortage curtails project.
 

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