The A69 Aviso

[uk 75]

France always provides some interesting alternatives to equipment used by other Western countries.

One such is the A69 Aviso corvette.

D'Estienne d'Orves-class aviso - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

17 ships entered service in the 1970s and the last are not expected to be replaced till 2026.

Armed only with a gun and in some cases two MM38 Exocet their closest counterparts in the RN are the Castle and River class OPVs. Or perhaps the eight Type 21 frigates which were used by the RN in similar roles to the A69.

So why have I started a thread in the alt history section?

What if instead of 17 A69 France had built 8 frigates with helicopter and Crotale point defence as well as gun and Exocet?

Or if instead of the T21 the RN had opted for the simpler Vickers Vedette design and built 16 of them to replace the old frigates built in the 50s?

 

[H_K]

What if instead of 17 A69 France had built 8 frigates with helicopter and Crotale point defence as well as gun and Exocet?

Something like the C1800 corvette (1979) mentioned here?

Post in thread 'French Naval Projects from Late 70's'
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-naval-projects-from-late-70s.11051/post-104006

Timing might be a problem as the A69’s design dates from 1968-69, with construction starting in 1971 and sea trials in 1975. Crotale wasn’t ready till 1979 so the F67 frigates that were built concurrently with the A69s had 100mm canon or nothing at all installed for their first few years in service.

Might be more likely to build 5-6 A69s then switch over to a larger design. Question would then be… why build yet another light frigate design versus buying more F70 Georges Leygues class?

 

[R_K_M]

What would be the difference between your Aviso and the Avonit/F67/F70?

The big problem is that France still needs a certain amount of hulls to patrol their overseas territories and EEZs. Thats why they bought A69s instead of Frigates in the first place. Instead of 17 A69s and 11 Avonit/F67s/F70s one alternative could be something like 18 Avonit/F67s/F70s plus 10 OPVs that essentially only carry 100mms as weapons.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

What if instead of 17 A69 France had built 8 frigates with helicopter and Crotale point defence as well as gun and Exocet?

As others have said the 8 frigates with helicopter, Crotale, a gun and Exocet sound suspiciously like additional F67s and C70s or a modified C65.

And as others have also written they'd have to build 9 OPVs to make up the numbers. However, the OPVs that @R_K_M mentioned sound too close to A69s "fitted for, but not with" Exocet to me. Therefore, I think they'd have to build something along the lines of the British Isles and Castle classes.

The only alternative I can think of is to keep 9 of the 4 E50 and 14 E52 light frigates that the A69s were built to replace. I can see two problems with that.

1. Where do the crews come from? The E52 had a crew of 175 and the A69 had a crew of 90 (both according to their Wikipedia entries) and the crews of the 17 A69s built in the real world will be needed to provide the crews of the 8 C70s built in their place. (As an aside the 17 A69s had a combined crew of 1,530 and 8 extra C70 of the AS type would have a crew (according to its Wikipedia entry) of 1,880 or 350 more.)
2. 18 E52s & E52s were completed 1955-60 and the 17 A69s were completed 1976-84 so replacements for the 8 E52s that were run on would be needed sooner rather than later. According to its Wikipedia entry 6 A69s are still in MN service and the last one is planned to be withdrawn in 2027. The vessel in question is Commandant Blaison which was completed in 1982 so at present it's service live is planned to be 45 years. Does that mean the last 8 E52s which were completed 1957-60 be run on until 2002-2005? The E59 class of light frigates that were built between the E52s and A69s served with the MN for 25-30 years, that is they were completed 1962-70 and retired between the late 1980s and middle 1990s.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

What if instead of 17 A69 France had built 8 frigates with helicopter and Crotale point defence as well as gun and Exocet?

The plan in the early 1970s was to build 26 A69 corvettes and 24 frigates with helicopter, Crotale (or an area defence SAM), gun and Exocet by 1985, when the NM would have had 30 destroyers & frigates (2 FLE60, one C65, 3 F67 & 24 C70) and 35 light frigates & corvettes (9 E59 & 26 A69).

However, in the event only 17 A69 & 4 C70 were completed by 1985 and the total number of C70 built was only 9 (including 2 AAW versions) with the last ship completing in 1991.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

What would be the difference between your Aviso and the Avonit/F67/F70?

The big problem is that France still needs a certain amount of hulls to patrol their overseas territories and EEZs. Thats why they bought A69s instead of Frigates in the first place. Instead of 17 A69s and 11 Avonit/F67s/F70s one alternative could be something like 18 Aconit/F67s/F70s plus 10 OPVs that essentially only carry 100mms as weapons.

And as others have also written they'd have to build 9 OPVs to make up the numbers. However, the OPVs that @R_K_M mentioned sound too close to A69s "fitted for, but not with" Exocet to me. Therefore, I think they'd have to build something along the lines of the British Isles and Castle classes.

I'd forgotten about the 6 Floréal class that were built in the 1990s. Were they the sort of ships you were thinking about?

However, the question is still, where is the money to pay for them coming from, because the money used to buy the 17 A69s has been used to build 8 "proper" frigates, probably more F67s and C70s.

The only alternative I can think of is to keep 9 of the 4 E50 and 14 E52 light frigates that the A69s were built to replace. I can see two problems with that.

1. Where do the crews come from? The E52 had a crew of 175 and the A69 had a crew of 90 (both according to their Wikipedia entries) and the crews of the 17 A69s built in the real world will be needed to provide the crews of the 8 C70s built in their place. (As an aside the 17 A69s had a combined crew of 1,530 and 8 extra C70 of the AS type would have a crew (according to its Wikipedia entry) of 1,880 or 350 more.)
2. 18 E52s & E52s were completed 1955-60 and the 17 A69s were completed 1976-84 so replacements for the 8 E52s that were run on would be needed sooner rather than later. According to its Wikipedia entry 6 A69s are still in MN service and the last one is planned to be withdrawn in 2027. The vessel in question is Commandant Blaison which was completed in 1982 so at present it's service live is planned to be 45 years. Does that mean the last 8 E52s which were completed 1957-60 be run on until 2002-2005? The E59 class of light frigates that were built between the E52s and A69s served with the MN for 25-30 years, that is they were completed 1962-70 and retired between the late 1980s and middle 1990s.

If 9 E52 had been run on to make up the numbers then it's possible that as many as 9 additional Floréal-class would have been built in the 1990s to replace them. However, where is the extra money required to build them coming from?

 

[R_K_M]

And as others have also written they'd have to build 9 OPVs to make up the numbers. However, the OPVs that @R_K_M mentioned sound too close to A69s "fitted for, but not with" Exocet to me. Therefore, I think they'd have to build something along the lines of the British Isles and Castle classes.

The Castle-class eventually got AShMs too. I wouldn't worry about what could theoretically fit on an OPV. Though a 40 or 57mm gun would indeed be an more economical choice for an OPV than a 100mm.