Tank versus Tank battles today

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Back in 1973 the mighty Israel tank force was not shocked by Soviet supplied T62 tanks but by the impact of hundreds of suitcase SAGGER anti tank missiles.
In both wars against Iraq the allied M1 and Challenger tanks decimated enemy tanks only later to prove vulnerable to improvised explosive traps planted by insurgents.
Unlike the epic encounters between tank forces in World War 2 we seem to have moved to an era where tank battles between competing well equipped armoured units are a thing of the past.
The UK for example can reinforce Poland or the Baltic States far more easily and effectively with its Apache helicopters than its declining numbers of Challenger tanks.
Will we ever see another Kursk or 6 day war style tank battle with state of the art equipment on both sides?
 
probably not with everyone wanting to advance thier military technology to a kind of "push button warfare" being able to hit anything, anytime, anywhere. thats why the "project thor" was considered. it was a space based platform that met the requirements of the (cant remember the treaty name) space treaty where you cannot put nuclear weapons into space it was a KRDS or Kenetic Rod Delivery System. there is a thread on it if you want to check it out. but its more long range engagements like artillery and such when it comes to tanks.
 
This seems relevant, and although dumbed-down, quite informative. (possibly paywalled)

 
31 years ago Soviet tanks were easy meat in the desert, and AT weapons have only got better and more sophisticated since then. Tank armour has not improved at the same level and while self-defence kit has improved its not going to compensate for underlying weaknesses in the tank. A T-72 is still a T-72 all these years later. You can tart it up with various bits and bobs on the outside but the basic tank was already considered thin long ago as the 'Dolly Partons' of the 80s attest to. Even T-80s are pushing over 40 years old in design.
And yes, we know Challenger 2s, Abrams and Leopard 2s are vulnerable too, just like there are no unsinkable ships there are no invulnerable tanks to proper application of explosives. But we don't say aircraft (and even UAVs) are obsolete because missiles can shoot them down them do we?

Not sure we've actually seen any smart tactics, rumbling up single file along main roads didn't work out well for XXX Corps' M4s and Cromwells 70 years ago either. Rommel's Pz IVs in Libya didn't do much without juice, neither did empty King Tigers around Bastogne. Considering the weight of armoured warfare doctrine handbooks they must have produced over the years it is just baffling.
 
The Israelis learnt the hard way in 1973 that even the best tanks must work as part of a combined arms team. This includes the tail as well as the teeth. Without supplies the best armour in the world is so much scrap.
 
Over the last 40 years, tanks have added successive layers of more sophisticated armor. Brits were the first to move away from straight steel armor with their Chobham armor that includes various layers of steel, rubber, ceramics, fiberglass, etc. When HESH started generating shrapnel INSIDE AFVs, they added fabric spall-liners. Then Israel added explosive reactive armor on the outside. Then Americans added electronic anti-missile systems to intercept incoming anti-tank missiles. NATO added slat armor to defeat RPGs. The Russians added roof-top slat armor to defeat top-attack missiles. Some body added laser dazzlers to confuse range-finders. Swedes (?) added thermo-stealth camouflage nets.
Rinse and repeat.
Tanks are a long way from obsolete because some days the only weapon that will work is a flat-trajectory slug fired from ground level. And that slug-launcher needs enough armor to survive shrapnel, small-arms fire, plus whatever other weapons the bad guys brought to the battlefield.

Adjusting black beret with Sherbrooke Hussars' cap badge.
 
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The trick we need is not so much to decry the tank, they as have been said, will be useful for a long time yet. What we really need is layers. Vehicles of different scale and equipment for different roles, the MBT is a relatively modern thing still and having moved away from specialist vehicles for specialist roles are finding we need to go back to them.

The battle group structure imho, needs to adopt more than ever, the type of kampfgruppe utilised by the Wehrmacht where engineers and artillery etc are constant companions along with infantry and armour packages. Yes we had them when I was serving but the integration left a lot on the table to be discovered. Anti air and anti drone units too.

Until we get smarter unit organisation and deployment we are far from being able to fully appreciate exactly what it is we want from the army and indeed navy and marines, air force. An MBT for a few decades yet will be a very powerful door knocker and continue to get attention.

Those Egyptians btw, made a huge mistake of being on the point of winning a major engagement against the Israeli's and moving beyond the reach/scope of their anti air assets. A very shocking failure of intelligent people.
 
Will we ever see another Kursk or 6 day war style tank battle with state of the art equipment on both sides?
Anti-tank platforms are better at fighting tanks than other tanks. If two tank forces face each other, one or both side would scramble to push anti-tank systems into the battlefield and pull out expensive tanks when possible. This means large scale pitched tank battle is unlikely between modern forces, and some confused small scale meeting engagement is what is likely.

The idea or two tank forces fighting each other in this era is similar to the idea of bomber forces fighting each other, or naval gunfire support ship fighting each other.

And yes, we know Challenger 2s, Abrams and Leopard 2s are vulnerable too, just like there are no unsinkable ships there are no invulnerable tanks to proper application of explosives. But we don't say aircraft (and even UAVs) are obsolete because missiles can shoot them down them do we?
A lot of cost and effort is put into the the tank to resist firepower, it doesn't appear to work very well. But that is not the most important problem, the problem is that the ability to inflict damage for its cost seems questionable.

Why do you need a 50...60...70ton platform to shoot some 120mm out to 2km, while just about everything else have longer effective range and lower cost and weight. It is like a guy wearing level 4 armor and armed with a warhammer.

No one is questioning the importance of artillery, aircraft, anti-air and likes because the firepower provided are both effective and can not be replaced by others. The firepower provided by the tank gun seems quite replaceable by a combination of lighter and longer ranged weapons.

Now there are tactical situations where direct fire is the best solution, but they are rare and probably falls generally under urban warfare. The other is complete distrust in all communications, but that posture is risky, just ask the French that distrusted the radio in their wwII campaign. Using unreliable system like the gun or missile or radio or engine (as opposed to the reliable weapon like the stick: no moving parts!) is often the winning move because it is good enough.

Tanks are a long way from obsolete because some days the only weapon that will work is a flat-trajectory slug fired from ground level. And that slug-launcher needs enough armor to survive shrapnel, small-arms fire, plus whatever other weapons the bad guys brought to the battlefield.
In practice, often the only weapon that doesn't work is flat trajectory slug. Any fool can find terrain to hide behind and use sensor masts, drones (tethered or otherwise), networks with pop up or indirect attacks that render the flat trajectory counters ineffective.

But the hard counter to the slug is already known, people just don't bother implementing it. The unmanned turret enables the turret front to be entirely composed of either the weapon or sensor, all of which can not be armored and thus making the slug superfluous. The saved weight goes into front hull armor, which now defeats 120~125mm and without exotic tech demands 140~155mm gun to defeat, making the ammo the same size as ATGM and the entire system massively bigger.

The advantage of a "proper" tank with 140mm gun over a 50mm AC armed IFV is ability to go through one extra plate on this AFV, a plate that should not be exposed with competent defensive positioning and have low impact on ability to mission kill.

Than there is APS, which can halve penetration by slugs, thus demanding something like 160mm+ guns to penetrate the final plate. It gets to the point that it'd actually take a missile to get the required kinetic energy because it doesn't need a big gun, see LOSAT.

There is a million ways to defeat the opponent from tactical, operation, strategic and other levels. Tiger IIs didn't win the war despite practical frontal armor immunity or gun that penetrate everything. There are tactical situations where these characteristics are helpful if not decisive, but there are many others where they are irrelevant and war can be won out of the latter.

This is all silly, because tanks are such a uncommon threat to modern AFVs that it is not really worthwhile to dedicate too much resources into defeating tank fire. Every infantry squad, every light vehicle in every country can have effective ATGM fitted. Even if you opponent don't have economy and logistics to run anything more than Toyotas and are rebels on mountains, a pile of ATGMs can show up from any sponsor smuggled via who knows where, like 13k rounds in a week of the most recent conflict. How many tanks can be moved into theater, how many competent tankers with support element with years of NTC rotations can show up in comparison?

And the idea of immunity to missile is quite funny, because missiles have the superset of projectile capabilities, including velocity and kinetic energy but also tricks like decoys, jamming, steath, EFP, etc etc. When 15,000ton ships can not claim immunity or even cost effective defense against missiles, a 70 ton vehicle vehicle have no chance.
 
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And without a method of protection on top of the vehicle, all armoured vehicles are scrap metal no matter what role they are intended to perform. The integration of a properly functioning protective systems is central to maintaining the viability of any armoured formation.
 
As the rocket or missile has in large part replaced the gun it may also displace
tanks as the main weapon on the battlefield.
 
As countries increasingly have fewer people suitable for military service and reluctance to take casualties increases with modern media large scale military actions may become too difficult to mount.
An increasingly hostile environment of drones, intelligent mines, missiles of all kinds will hasten this.
 
There were tank battles in Ukraine in 2014 between T-90M and T-64BV. Unsurprisingly, the T-90M demolished everything it came into contact with.

Most tank battles nowadays tend to be tanks fighting light infantry with anti-tank missiles rather than tank on tank combat, but that might just be because most countries have lost the capacity to maintain and operate heavy armor since the 1980's, both in terms of training and general infrastructural decline. Which is kind of awkward.

If anything, the proliferation of advanced anti-tank missiles and loitering drones proves that tanks are more important than ever.
 
If a tank can be killed by something, so can anything less than a tank.

The difference is a tank can be killed by fewer things in general. Tanks are more important and so is armor, as killing ability increases. This is a truism, infrastructure limitations not withstanding. Just because you can't operate a tank that is heavy enough to meet protection/mobility requirements of the future doesn't mean it disappears as a requirement. It means you need to build better infrastructure.

Deadlier weapons just means that tanks are going to be better protected by active protection systems than passive armor though, and superior compartmentalization, because penetration is likely inevitable. Passive protection against kinetic type munitions is always going to be important, especially small arms to medium cannons, and splinter, because this is the main reason tanks were made (indirect fire from field guns/mortars, and machine guns).

If you're down to the point where missiles and bombs can plink individual soldiers, and we certainly approaching at that point that they are cheap enough, you better make sure they're well protected and well dispersed though. A tank achieves this. So would a suit of powered armor but we're not there yet, and that's just turning infantrymen into tanks anyway.

That is why tanks are more important than ever. Or, as most soldiers might ever see, tank. Singular.

Large tank battles are dead because firepower is too effective at killing massed tank formations. 1973 and 1991 were anachronisms rather than futuristic portents: large field forces would be destroyed by nuclear weapons, or in the modern day by PGMs, when available. But you still need something that can resist the machine gun's fire and blow up a pillbox though. So there are two potential routes for tanks in the future: Merkava IV or Namer where it's super heavily armored and protected by multiple defense systems besides just passive armor; or Carmel where it's extremely lightweight (theoretically, cheaper) and protected by only active armor and the bare minimum of passive protection.

So while tanks aren't going anywhere, but there will be fewer of them, and mass tank battles on the scale of Kursk or 73 Easting have been dead for decades. They might pop up now and again but most wars are all about singletons or platoon engagements against anti-tank guns/missiles in close combat. This is actually quite natural and has historical precedence for those who take comfort in knowing "we've been here before" and such...

Think more similar to the ETO experience, specifically of the 3rd/4th Armored Divisions of the US Army, rather than the Ostfront. Terrains are close now and in close terrain only a few units (tanks or platoons of tanks) can bring firepower to bear due to line of sight restrictions. Ukraine ain't just empty expanses of pig farms and wheat fields anymore. Nowhere in Europe or the modern world is. It's all cities and hedgerows like the Bocage. The biggest engagements we might see in the future will be company on company with a dozen tanks on one side or four or eight or ten on the other. But that's the average for the ETO anyway, and the WW2 Bocage is a good approximation of what it's like to drive down a modern European strip village or suburb in the 2020's.

Then again a total battle of a dozen tanks is literally a "mass" engagement by definition: forces can withdraw before annihilation. It's only once you get into doubles or duels between tanks that battles to annihilation predominate.

As for what this looks like: heavy mechanized ground forces will be led by "irregulars"/partisan-type light infantry in pickups or Ragtag Circus style box trucks that they find on the side of the road. The US Army Rangers did this in Panama, too, so it doesn't have to be actual irregulars, just light infantrymen with improvised motor transport. These will be your skirmishers, who lead the heavy armor troops, and recon for enemy anti-tank defenses by taking machine gun fire. They spot the machine gun and call in a tank, which arrives, and while the infantry suppress likely anti-armor missile launchers the tank destroys the machine gun. The infantry can then advance. Repeat.

UAS and accurate IDF gunfire can replicate some aspects of the tank and infantry reconnaissance by providing long duration observation to identify actual strongpoints before poking your nose out of a bush or hedgerow or from behind a privacy fence to suppress the ATGW positions, and you can drop a line of INS guided smoke shells or something to provide screening cover for a street crossing or whatever for the Joes on the ground if they don't have enough guns to blast at the windows the missile men are looking out of. That also protects the singular tank.

For those asking "why not just use howitzers" or "why not all infantry" or "why not have everyone ride in tank-APCs" the answer comes down to: 1) direct fire requires fewer rounds to engage a hard target and has less collateral damage; 2) infantry arent bulletproof yet; 3) no one besides maybe the USA has that kind of money.

Source: It was revealed to me in a dream while JFC Fuller astrally projected into my mindscape.
 
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What I am seeing is something akin to warship development post-WWII. The armored gun cruisers and battleships gave way to unarmored guided missile cruisers and destroyers. An Arleigh Burke is the same size as a WWII heavy cruiser but very different in design. I believe tanks will drop a lot of their armor and move towards active defenses with a mix of missiles and auto-cannons replacing their big guns, and any big guns that remain will be more geared towards infantry support than anti-tank warfare.
 
And without a method of protection on top of the vehicle, all armoured vehicles are scrap metal no matter what role they are intended to perform. The integration of a properly functioning protective systems is central to maintaining the viability of any armoured formation.
If you had been watching recent video of Russian tanks invading Ukraine, you would have seen that some of them of weird things on their roofs that sort of look like bed frames. Those weird frames are to pre-detonate the shaped charges in Javelin top-attack missiles. That means that a Javelin hit is not longer instant death ... more like an ear-ache followed by a fresh coat of paint.
 
It hasn't always helped:

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I believe those 'bedsteads are more for morale than any protection. Being a dual stage weapon that monstrosity would have zero benefit protection wise. Many vehicles seen in and around the UAOC have used the thing for personal stowage and cam attachment. You would need much thicker primary armour placed on the top of the vehicle and even then there is a low probability of defeating the round. The psychological effects of anything that can be suggested as protective does have a small effect on morale as I know from first hand experience. Later evidence was not so comforting.........
 
And without a method of protection on top of the vehicle, all armoured vehicles are scrap metal no matter what role they are intended to perform. The integration of a properly functioning protective systems is central to maintaining the viability of any armoured formation.
If you had been watching recent video of Russian tanks invading Ukraine, you would have seen that some of them of weird things on their roofs that sort of look like bed frames. Those weird frames are to pre-detonate the shaped charges in Javelin top-attack missiles. That means that a Javelin hit is not longer instant death ... more like an ear-ache followed by a fresh coat of paint.

Ukraine had DJI Phantoms with PG-7 warheads attached in 2015. ISIS had the same thing in Syria too. There are pictures on Google of these weird anti-tank drones but I cba to find them rn unless someone asks. That's probably what they're for TBH. They can't stop Javelin or NLAW because these are hemi-charges and have standoff fusing rather than impact piezoelectric fuses.

AFAIUI the Javelin smashes through the upper layer of the cage, the seeker is destroyed, and the warhead survives, which detonates somewhere between the roof and the cage. Being a tandem hemi-charge it punches through it and the ERA before destroying the tank. NLAW I think detonates slightly higher but still avoids the cage by going underneath it because it flies half to three quarters meter above the roof of the typical tank, these seem to be mounted more than a meter above the tank.

What I am seeing is something akin to warship development post-WWII. The armored gun cruisers and battleships gave way to unarmored guided missile cruisers and destroyers. An Arleigh Burke is the same size as a WWII heavy cruiser but very different in design. I believe tanks will drop a lot of their armor and move towards active defenses with a mix of missiles and auto-cannons replacing their big guns, and any big guns that remain will be more geared towards infantry support than anti-tank warfare.

The passive armor required to stop a 57mm or 75mm APFSDS is identical to most extant tank armor tbh. Autocannons in the future are just baby tank guns, so I don't see the passive armor requirements drastically diminishing.

Tanks are going to start comparmentalizing because penetration is inevitable though. Whether that means less passive armor is a question of available infrastructure: If no one ever upgrades their railroad networks ever again, then yes that's a possible outcome. If they do, then expect tanks to grow in size in proportion to the railroads. The reason tanks are the size they are now is because railroads are the current bottleneck, and from that width limitation follows all other dimensions and masses, but not because 3.6 meters is some Platonic ideal.

As for post-penetration fightability, consider two small diesel or turbine engines, mounted in a staggered (or reversed) manner in the sponsons, driving hybrid-electric motors. One alone is enough to power the tank's movement in lower speeds/gearings, buth both are required for high speed tactical movement, but if you're hit by an RPG-29 you've only lost one engine because they're staggered and mounted a vehicle's length away from each other. You can still "get home" because of one engine. Consider also backup hydraulic lines and reservoirs, or each generator-engine can power through software switchboard the turret and electrics at full capacity with a minor cost in mobility if working alone.

That sort of thing.

Tanks are becoming boats yes, but nothing as advanced as warships, yet. Tanks have hardly advanced much in the realms of internal compartmentalization since the FT-17 rather, because passive protection predominated the past century. Tank protection was always about having enough armor to not get penetrated, and not surviving multiple penetrations was the norm, whereas future tanks will need to survive getting penetrated and still be self-recoverable, possibly multiple times in the course of a combat outing. Because infrastructure is hard and there are fewer tanks and fewer still ARVs in the future, because APS might be able to stop 2-4 shots per angle, and because there is an outsize threat of anti-armor munitions from loitering drones, glide bombs, man portable anti-tank weapons, and the occasional enemy super-tank.

You could also argue that tanks are becoming tactical attack aircraft in that they're going to be taking up massively more capital to build, will require the ability to take hits and get home, and be much more harrowing for the operators to fight from. Think of the video of the Rook that took the Igla in Kherson a couple days ago and loosed his rockets on target before turning tail and going home. That's the tank of the future: it needs to be able to "tank" a Javelin shot, warts and all, perhaps multiple times, and get its crew home, even if it means being destined for the parts yard.

That was Simpkin's argument though.

FWIW T-14 proves you can build a heavily protected armored vehicle for less than 70 tons if you don't mind losing your cannon now and then. Losing armor on the turret is something tankers can naturally adapt to though without too much fuss I think. It certainly hasn't bothered Bradley crews too much. That's probably where the real weight savings will come and tank battalions will just keep multiple turrets for each wagon.
 
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Actually, keeping multiple turrets per vehicle would not happen. Hard enough to keep units supplied with basics.
 
The cages obviously aren't intended to fully protect against Javelins, although the newest variants have thermal emitters that may confuse a Javelin seeker.
 
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Something which is happening all over the world is urbanisation
Old images of tanks sweeping majestically across open fields should be replaced by columns of vehicles shuffling along suburban roads.
Built-up areas are even worse for vehicles if some idiot decides to trash them with missiles and artillery.
 
Tanks of the future will have to go one of two ways. Uparmored monsters like a Merkava with a T14 turret or ditch the armor and use speed and tech to avoid being hit.
 
Heavier armour units can traverse terrain the little guys cannot, so, smaller units would simply be channeled into kill zones. Instead of thinking in monosyllable, we should be looking at different vehicles and units interact for each new mission.
 
A lot of cost and effort is put into the the tank to resist firepower, it doesn't appear to work very well. But that is not the most important problem, the problem is that the ability to inflict damage for its cost seems questionable.

Why do you need a 50...60...70ton platform to shoot some 120mm out to 2km, while just about everything else have longer effective range and lower cost and weight. It is like a guy wearing level 4 armor and armed with a warhammer.

No one is questioning the importance of artillery, aircraft, anti-air and likes because the firepower provided are both effective and can not be replaced by others. The firepower provided by the tank gun seems quite replaceable by a combination of lighter and longer ranged weapons.

This is basically the cycle of senility described in George Friedman's The Future of War a long time ago.

Is the tank obsolete? Probably not quite yet.

Is a weapon that weighs 80 tons and costs millions of dollars to shoot a few kilograms of explosive a few kilometers senile? It's getting there.
 
As countries increasingly have fewer people suitable for military service and reluctance to take casualties increases with modern media large scale military actions may become too difficult to mount.
An increasingly hostile environment of drones, intelligent mines, missiles of all kinds will hasten this.
It just means large scale military action must involve less human at risk. Air power enabled this. Robotics is also on the horizon.

If a tank can be killed by something, so can anything less than a tank.
If a battleship can be killed be something, so can anything less than a battleship. The difference is that a battleship can be killed be fewer things in general. Battleships are more important and so is armor, as killing ability increases. This is a truism. Just because you haven't built a battleship that is heavy enough to meet protection requirements doesn't mean it disappears as a requirement, it means you need to spend more money.....

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Okay, to really answer the argument. There are things that are just simply impossible or ineffective within the confines of a particular environment and situation. For example, given 1914, a quick and low casualty war that ends by Christmas was not really attainable no matter how much you shuffled and optimized the cavalry.

Wars have to conform to the technological environment. If the technology shows that maneuver warfare does not work, than change how one fights.

In history, many dramatic revolutions happened that completely change how organized violence work that completely invalidated previous systems. It isn't that old tactics becomes difficult, but absurd and should not be attempted. For example the invention of the chariot or gunpowder resulted in completely different government, social structure and civilianization altogether.

But you still need something that can resist the machine gun's fire and blow up a pillbox though.
Or maybe you don't. With a century of technology, "The Command of Air" is sufficient in destroying all large organized resistance and a bombing campaign reducing the targeted nation to iron age technology is quite attainable to even 2nd rate powers. This fulfilled both defense, "preemptive-defense" and punitive expedition role quite well, as many weak regimes have found out.

Why even send in the boots? There is nothing of value that can be captured, as productive elites will leave, infrastructure can not survive wars and natural resources just isn't that big part of economies. Air power does the destruction bit quite well.

Even in the context of ground warfare, there are many replacement. The infantry rocket, now enhanced with advanced FCS, guidance systems and warheads like thermobaric can blow up pillboxes and machineguns just fine, and that is with old technology and tactics.

With edge of modern technology, the drone swarm scouts out the pillboxes, and artillery, missile or UGV kills them, with minimum risk to the human. Mix in home on jam weapons, tight beam mesh networks and AI and its done.

As for what this looks like: heavy mechanized ground forces will be led by "irregulars"/partisan-type light infantry in pickups or Ragtag Circus style box trucks that they find on the side of the road. These will be your skirmishers, who lead the heavy armor troops, and recon for enemy anti-tank defenses by taking machine gun fire. They spot the machine gun and call in a tank, which arrives, and while the infantry suppress likely anti-armor missile launchers the tank destroys the machine gun. The infantry can then advance. Repeat.
Why would your opponent be dumb enough to sit around with an highly ineffective machinegun that do not inflict serious damage? Why would your front line forces get suffer from being shot at without fast response while waiting for a land vehicle to save their asses?

Instead:
Your skirmishers runs over a mine and blown up
Your skirmishers runs into small arms ambush and get shot up, the enemy fire teams relocate with prepared exfil route within two minutes to avoid artillery
Your skirmishers runs into ATGM ambush and gets blown up
Your skirmishers runs into artillery kill box and gets blown up
Your skirmisher makes contact with opponent, decides to pull a rocket/missile launcher or manpack loitering munition and blow them up.
Your skirmisher makes contact with opponent, finds available artillery support, in under a minute the shells are flying and under 2 minutes the opponent position destroyed, with launcher vehicles already locating (performance as required for the counterbattery battle)
Some drone flies over the battlespace, and one or both sides gets blown up by stuff far out of range

The opponent is not stupid, they will target weakness and avoid strength.

In the context of fighting against modern opponent with heavy assets around, MG teams need to inflict damage pretty much within first burst or it has failed and have to relocate fast after revealing their position as every platform can blow them up, fast.

An ATGM team is actually vastly harder to deal with than machineguns. For one thing, they far outrange small arms, 5km versus 500m. For really modern ATGM, they have non-Line of Sight attack modes so ground level observation is pretty useless. Alternatively, fire and forget means small amounts of exposure time. Missiles can also fit hefty anti-infantry warheads, and many a infantry fighting position has been destroyed and any machinegun team silly enough to setup a static position is a easy target.

I don't get why people think it is a good idea to have light forces charge 4kilometers into a killzone across mines, pre-sighted artillery, and other fire to "suppress" an ATGM launcher so that a weapon system with 800m effective range can be defeated.~ ATGM suppression was always about artillery, and today with decent ISR you just kill them and everything else with artillery.

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For those asking "why not just use howitzers" or "why not all infantry" or "why not have everyone ride in tank-APCs" the answer comes down to: 1) direct fire requires fewer rounds to engage a hard target and has less collateral damage; 2) infantry arent bulletproof yet; 3) no one besides maybe the USA has that kind of money.
When guided munitions starts at under $6k, indirect fire is cheap. Consider how expensive the tank is, and how expensive the fuel, the transports, bridging, recovery and all the other costs adds up. You can buy stupid number of guided munitions for a MBT. If one must use a vehicle, just user a UGV. For the cost of millions one can afford a whole swarm of communication relay drones.

As for infantry in tank-APCs, it is the logical first step for professionalize forces. 120mm rifles really isn't that expensive (when not accounting costs of defense and engine to move all the defense), while a infantry squad can be. If you are to armor high value high vulnerability objects, armor the men not the steel tube.
 
I just cant see the setup, of how a Tank v tank is going to happen, at least 1, of not both parties are going to need to get to this location, so that means fly, or ships, both of which can be intercepted. Then they go on a train, likewise, then off the train, onto transporters.

As recent events show, you can target the planes, the ships, the fuel for either, the train/line, the trucks, the truck drivers, fuel truck for the trucks, food truck etc etc.

With satellites, even commercial ones can tell you fairly well whats happening, so you can prepare, and as above target the arrival.

Just as Battleships are gone, the role of the tank will diminish, and Tank V tank, except in some strange 3rd world war, is over.
 
I still stand by my ascertain that the ideal future tank/heavy armoured fighting vehicle will be something akin to Israel's Carmel program. Basically a heavyish IFV but with weapons including 30 - 50mm main gun for taking out softer vehicles, IFVs and dealing with buildings/bunkers etc and missiles such as Spike/Javelin for heavier threats such as MBTs. Also give it some anti-drone/airdefence weapons be these a combination of smart guided rounds from gun, guided rockets and/or SAMs. Of course drone jamming is a must. The platform will also allow troops to be carried when needed and also be highly integrated, probably controlling its own drones/robots.
 
So a modern tank with smaller faster firing main gun, machine gun or light cannon for
troops or drones. and a rapid reload missile launcher with integrated jamming system.
Sounds good but not sure about platform for troops.
 
I still stand by my ascertain that the ideal future tank/heavy armoured fighting vehicle will be something akin to Israel's Carmel program. Basically a heavyish IFV but with weapons including 30 - 50mm main gun for taking out softer vehicles, IFVs and dealing with buildings/bunkers etc and missiles such as Spike/Javelin for heavier threats such as MBTs. Also give it some anti-drone/airdefence weapons be these a combination of smart guided rounds from gun, guided rockets and/or SAMs. Of course drone jamming is a must. The platform will also allow troops to be carried when needed and also be highly integrated, probably controlling its own drones/robots.
Maybe an unmanned version with a heavier gun, for local defence, i.e. tank. Doesnt need to be heavily armoured, as its unmanned.
 
I still stand by my ascertain that the ideal future tank/heavy armoured fighting vehicle will be something akin to Israel's Carmel program. Basically a heavyish IFV but with weapons including 30 - 50mm main gun for taking out softer vehicles, IFVs and dealing with buildings/bunkers etc and missiles such as Spike/Javelin for heavier threats such as MBTs. Also give it some anti-drone/airdefence weapons be these a combination of smart guided rounds from gun, guided rockets and/or SAMs. Of course drone jamming is a must. The platform will also allow troops to be carried when needed and also be highly integrated, probably controlling its own drones/robots.
I still stand by my ascertain that the ideal future tank/heavy armoured fighting vehicle will be something akin to Israel's Carmel program. Basically a heavyish IFV but with weapons including 30 - 50mm main gun for taking out softer vehicles, IFVs and dealing with buildings/bunkers etc and missiles such as Spike/Javelin for heavier threats such as MBTs. Also give it some anti-drone/airdefence weapons be these a combination of smart guided rounds from gun, guided rockets and/or SAMs. Of course drone jamming is a must. The platform will also allow troops to be carried when needed and also be highly integrated, probably controlling its own drones/robots.
Maybe an unmanned version with a heavier gun, for local defence, i.e. tank. Doesnt need to be heavily armoured, as its unmanned.

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel...veils-combat-vehicle-technology-of-the-future This ? I am surprised they are guiding it with xbox controllers ?
 
I still stand by my ascertain that the ideal future tank/heavy armoured fighting vehicle will be something akin to Israel's Carmel program. Basically a heavyish IFV but with weapons including 30 - 50mm main gun for taking out softer vehicles, IFVs and dealing with buildings/bunkers etc and missiles such as Spike/Javelin for heavier threats such as MBTs. Also give it some anti-drone/airdefence weapons be these a combination of smart guided rounds from gun, guided rockets and/or SAMs. Of course drone jamming is a must. The platform will also allow troops to be carried when needed and also be highly integrated, probably controlling its own drones/robots.

It's an open question and there are good arguments for both heavily armored vehicles like Namer and light armored vehicles like Carmel. OTOH since tanks are restricted by railroad loading gauges, unless someone makes a broad gauge railroad sometime in the future, they aren't gonna be getting any bigger in mass or physical dimensions. That might push things towards the end of Carmel if it means choosing between upgrading a railroad system to accommodate a >100 ton super tank versus making a lighter vehicle. Budget planners always choose the path of least resistance.

MCGS seems to assume that penetration is better solved by much greater compartmentalization and having greater stockpiles of replacement components. Multiple engines, and robotic, isolated turrets that are replaced like engines, seem like a good compromise, since it lets you focus nearly all the armor on a singular crew capsule instead of protection of what is essentially dead weight/replaceable parts. One engine dies? You can get home with the backup at 15 kph max on road. Turret exploded? Pull it out and drop in another from the spares, salvage what you can. Track blasted off? You have four of them so you can still move.

Something like Object 490 but with heavier compartmentalization, al a MCGS or T-14, is my personal ideal "super tank" of the near future.

The late R.E. Simpkin talked about tanks having podded, articulated designs that could hook up to firepower units, and if one half of the tractor dies, you can detach and return to your FOB to get another tractor. Sort of a emergency self-recovery of armor. This would leverage Western economic advantages in capital versus manpower and allow a tank to survive threats like anti-tank weapons by having half of the vehicle be a sacrificial unit.

His ideal tank I think resembled UDES-XX tank destroyer plus a Carmel-type APS/light-medium scale passive protection.

So yeah both are valid in all honesty. Carmel is much cheaper since it lacks Special Armor and can use bus engines too.

I just cant see the setup, of how a Tank v tank is going to happen, at least 1, of not both parties are going to need to get to this location, so that means fly, or ships, both of which can be intercepted. Then they go on a train, likewise, then off the train, onto transporters.

As recent events show, you can target the planes, the ships, the fuel for either, the train/line, the trucks, the truck drivers, fuel truck for the trucks, food truck etc etc.

With satellites, even commercial ones can tell you fairly well whats happening, so you can prepare, and as above target the arrival.

Just as Battleships are gone, the role of the tank will diminish, and Tank V tank, except in some strange 3rd world war, is over.

Recent events give lie to the idea that loitering drones and indirect fires with omniscient electronic eyes can blunt armored attacks sufficiently to allow light infantry alone to counter-attack, if anything. They actually suggest that both light infantry lacking tanks and armor-heavy forces lacking infantry suffer from the same problem: lack of combined arms. Tanks can't be dislodged by light infantry alone and light infantry can't be fought economically without thorough ground reconnaissance/skirmishers screening the tanks.

We've seen it in Syria, in Iraq, in Nagorno-Karabakh, and in Donbass in 2014. Infantry with ATGW can merely slow down an armored advance, but when it's adequately supported by aviation they can't reverse it, and when it has aviation and infantry, it will advance. Infantry backed by aviation and artillery alone cannot attack armor, but they can retreat in good order. To attack they need their own armor. Which means tanks are still important...

Battleships didn't disappear because things could kill them. They disappeared because atomic bombs made armor worthless in the eyes of naval planners, and atomic bombs were plainly going to be used in any future naval wars...

...then battleships came back and stuck around the entire Cold War. Arleigh Burke has substantial survivability features in terms of passive protection relative to Spruance and other unarmored thin-skinned vessels, even if it isn't passively armored enough to stop a lightweight anti-ship missile like NSM or Harpoon.

History has shown this initial optimism of Crossroads was a faulty assertion as the number of nuclear weapons used as sea is less than the number of ships damaged and sunk by surprise missile attacks, so it's not like it should be a particularly large factor in planning. Abandoning all passive armor was a mistake, as USS Cole probably would have been able to resist a shaped charge attack better if it had a 2-3" armor belt of HY80 (probably adequate to stop a light AShM al a Exocet), but ships are difficult to build, like most things, in the post-industrial economic wastelands of the Western world. OTOH the Chinese might have brought back armored cruisers though, at least if you believe the Japanese SDF.

Even NAVSEA discussed it in the 1990's and 2000's for a future cruiser, but since there hasn't been a successful major USN shipbuilding program for a new-type surface escort since the 1980's, and it isn't clear if the USN is even capable of doing such things anymore, we'll probably never see it. The USN seems rather dead set on importing semi-random foreign designs, warming over 40+ year old ship hulls, and arming car ferries, instead of doing indigenous naval architecture work outside of submarines. It's not an ideal state of affairs but it's one it got stuck with due to divesting its engineering bureaus.

(...)

If a future cruiser is not a dedicated AAW/ASW carrier escort (intended to surge with the carrier battle groups), it may pick up modern versions of some of the historical roles:
  • A forward deployed "Sea Swap" unit, with the carrier battle groups based in the United States instead on constant patrol, would return the cruiser to the independent station ship role.
  • Future cruisers will not serve as sea denial raiders in declared wars because submarines are so much better at it. However, a modern sea denial role is intercepting and searching merchant ships in remote ocean locations to see if they are transporting terrorists or serving as Trojan horses for destructive weapons to be delivered to a US port.
  • Future cruisers will not conduct anti-surface raider barrier patrols, but could provide a ballistic missile defense barrier, the modern equivalent. This role requires a ship with the traditional cruiser virtues of endless boring patrolling (reliability, seakeeping, crew comfort) with the possibility of sudden unanticipated action (100% availability, time critical response, independent action).
  • Future cruisers will not carry float planes, but they may be a launch/recovery platform for the modern analog of unmanned vehicles (air, surface or underwater).

A return to other missions will, in turn, cause ship designers to put modern versions of other hull features, found in the previous cruisers types, into a new ship:
  • Increased survivability, especially against ambush attacks, including a return to structural armor,
  • Increased stores and fuel loads for independent operations,
  • Increased self repair stores and shops to allow staying on station for extended period while remaining fully capable,
  • First responder capabilities (such as limited medical facilities, small arms for the crew and an extensive boat/helo outfit), and
  • Crew sized not only to operate the ship but to put small detachments ashore or on seized merchant ships.
  • Provisions for carrying a small command staff and a senior officer (if assigned a role in the command structure).

The hull features listed above noticeably increase ship size (dimension and weight) compared to the current generation of lightly-protected aluminum superstructure ships bearing the cruiser name. However, most of those features have relatively low construction costs and a relatively small life cycle cost impact.

(...)

Emphasis mine. So never say never wrt armored warships sailing the seas again.

Anyway if you make infantrymen bulletproof then tanks are obsolete, at least for their traditional role: They still carry big giant guns so I suspect they'll just turn into armored SPGs at that point, a cross between the MBT and the SPH, like the RKKA's various SUs. The need for a mobile anti-pillbox field gun that can resist machine gun fire and machine gun-adjacent threats (splinter, mortar bombs, cannon fire) will always be needed as long as machine guns exist and infantry can be injured by them.

Additionally, there exist certain forms of structural targets, such as large structures and masonry of the Soviet-era, which cannot be harmed appreciably by any man-portable weapon, including the RPG-29. This requires a large caliber cannon such as a 152mm howitzer or a high velocity one like a 125mm. So tanks will still be around even if infantry are bulletproof and machine guns no longer exist, but they might just be a mobile gun carrier that fires a giant shell into a sniper's perch that's protected against small arms and heavy machine gun fire.

This is all somewhat obvious I think. People who think tanks are dead have a narrow conceptualization of what a tank does or why it came to exist in the first place. The first tanks were barely armored against rifle fire, and could be defeated by a mortar bomb or a field gun firing directly at them, after all. They're certainly changing, but only in the sense that tanks are beginning to realize that passive armor alone is not adequate to prevent penetration, and active armor is not sufficient without substantial passive armor. So they will evolve as warships did and effect greater compartmentalization.
 
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Recent events give lie to the idea that loitering drones and indirect fires with omniscient electronic eyes can blunt armored attacks sufficiently to allow light infantry alone to counter-attack, if anything. They actually suggest that both light infantry lacking tanks and armor-heavy forces lacking infantry suffer from the same problem: lack of combined arms. Tanks can't be dislodged by light infantry alone and light infantry can't be fought economically without thorough ground reconnaissance/skirmishers screening the tanks.

We've seen it in Syria, in Iraq, in Nagorno-Karabakh, and in Donbass in 2014. Infantry with ATGW can merely slow down an armored advance, but when it's adequately supported by aviation they can't reverse it, and when it has aviation and infantry, it will advance. Infantry backed by aviation and artillery alone cannot attack armor, but they can retreat in good order. To attack they need their own armor. Which means tanks are still important...
We've seen it in Iraq, Libya and in Nagorno-Karabakh, the defending side started with a large tank force which gets rapidly destroyed. In Syria, the side with superior infantry took the ground until modern air forces show up, which than defines the battlefield by their area of operations.

The tank warfare concept require success in other domains of wars to be successful, but can not influence such domains directly. The tanks need enemy air power to be neutralized but can not impose this on the enemy. The tanks need near parity in infantry capability but can not influence most small infantry action due to high cost, small numbers, and low availability relative to the entire battlespace. The tank forces also need neutralization of opponent artillery capability, but again can do little to impose it.

A force structure without tanks can and did win against those with tanks by leveraging advantage in other domains. Now, characteristic of warfare in other domains, the means of victory is different. Air power wins by destruction of opponent force and territory is gained only after opponent collapse. Infantry superiority wins by infiltration and attrition, where which again collapses the opponent before fully controlling the territory.

Now, the idea of a week of maneuver warfare "thunder runs" resulting in short victorious war is attractive even if other means of victory is possible even in the heyday of tanks as it is much faster and cleaner than months of bombardment or years of infantry battles. We see this attempted multiple times, but it often just ends in disaster. Iraq war II, Lebanon 2006, and now Ukraine all demonstrate how the flaws in many ways.

In addition to changing weaponry inflicting losses on maneuver forces, the inability to convert "control" of empty space between cities into victory make all those armored thrusts of limited value. In the modern era, it is no longer acceptable to encircle, starve and genocide cities (and there is WMD for this) and instead cities have to be cleared by infantry and wars has to be decided by attrition as opposed to "decisive winning maneuver holding 'strategic' ground".

That does not mean maneuver warfare is never a neat tool to have. With modern technology, they are a luxury for a force that have absurd overmatch and can "choose" how to neutralized the opponent. In the same way one can still have literal battleships, and park a carrier worth of CAP, multiple AAW, ASW escorts to make it work for more responsive off shore fire support, you can do the same with tanks. Nice to have when your budget is much bigger than the opponent.

For true peers, you simply have to use the cheapest and most accessible way to neutralize opponent combat capability, not the one with additional features like time, casualties and likes.

...then battleships came back and stuck around the entire Cold War. Arleigh Burke has substantial survivability features in terms of passive protection relative to Spruance and other unarmored thin-skinned vessels, even if it isn't passively armored enough to stop a lightweight anti-ship missile like NSM or Harpoon.
It is true that passive protection is underrated in ships. Armor for land vehicles however, is not going anywhere to begin with. While people have been talking about the death of the tank, the level of armor of vehicles have been growing, look away and IFVs gains another 10 tons. Armor is likely to grow as combat becomes increasingly non-linear, and threats like micro UAV swarms becomes unavoidable. It is actually pretty imaginable that even the police will have vehicles with APC level armor as cartels develop loitering munitions to maturity.

An escort cruiser is ultimately, very different from a battleship. The future of armored land vehicles is going to be no less different than current conceptualization of the tank. We are seeing troop carriers getting more armor, because manpower is expensive while "mere" medium bore direct fire gun is very cheap, low tech, and replaceable.

The MRAP is in my opinion, what armored vehicle will be like. Mine protection is necessary because mines can not be detected and defeated via standoff means. Threats like micro UAV and other EFP platforms means other armor structure is needed.

The thing to look out for is armor protection for high value equipment like air defense or electronic warfare assets. A laser tank might make reasonable sense given the costs of the system.
 
Something I expect we'll see before too long: a modest improvement on the standard civilian Walmart quadcopter drone, made smarter, more autonomous, with "legs" that allow it to walk like a bug. Produced in large quantities, shouldn't cost but a fraction of a hundred bucks a pop. A soldier take a box of them to a battlefield, points a scope at an enemy tank and says "sic 'em!" The drones fly out, spot the tank, zero in on it and *land* on the tank. One walks to the main armament and releases a thermite charge that burns a sizable hole into the main cannon. Another finds external armament such as missiles, and similarly burns through them. One finds the air inlet for the engine and releases something horrible into it that will destroy the engine (magnesium powder? Lithium powder in a kerosene suspension? Simple foam? Napalm?) Another finds the optics of the tank and sprays them down with black spray paint or expanding insulation foam. One finds radio and satellite communications systems and trashes them. Another finds the commanders hatch, drills into it, screws down a speaker and starts piping in Hansen's "Mmm-bop" at high volume. The drones that survive fly to a rally point for resupply and to be sent out again.

The tank can be rendered useless/ruined at very low cost, not only in terms of dollars and lives of the soldiers opposed to the tanks, but in terms of lives of the enemy tank crews. Because a dead enemy tank crew is of no real value; a live, *captured* crew is all kinds of valuable. A tank that is largely intact is also of use, even if just for parts, ammo and material. Heck, imagine the propaganda value of having a parade of hundreds of the enemies tanks and armored vehicles, fixed up, made functional and painted in Hello Kitty colors.
 
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A 'lot' of surplus ww2 tanks ended up in commercial roles, bulldozers, tractors and lumber haulers etc. What would a T-14 lumber grabber look like I wonder.............
 
Recent events give lie to the idea that loitering drones and indirect fires with omniscient electronic eyes can blunt armored attacks sufficiently to allow light infantry alone to counter-attack, if anything. They actually suggest that both light infantry lacking tanks and armor-heavy forces lacking infantry suffer from the same problem: lack of combined arms. Tanks can't be dislodged by light infantry alone and light infantry can't be fought economically without thorough ground reconnaissance/skirmishers screening the tanks.

We've seen it in Syria, in Iraq, in Nagorno-Karabakh, and in Donbass in 2014. Infantry with ATGW can merely slow down an armored advance, but when it's adequately supported by aviation they can't reverse it, and when it has aviation and infantry, it will advance. Infantry backed by aviation and artillery alone cannot attack armor, but they can retreat in good order. To attack they need their own armor. Which means tanks are still important...
We've seen it in Iraq, Libya and in Nagorno-Karabakh, the defending side started with a large tank force which gets rapidly destroyed. In Syria, the side with superior infantry took the ground until modern air forces show up, which than defines the battlefield by their area of operations.

Assad won the civil war because he had tanks. Azerbaijan defeated Artsakh because it had more tanks, while Artsakh had light infantry with ATGW, and Azerbaijan successfully screened its armored forces with aviation that destroyed anti-tank missile positions. There are tons of Internet videos of individual Artsakh missile teams being obliterated by TB-2s with anti-personnel bombs.

Aviation is important but it can't support infantry very timely in the manner an attached tank to an infantry platoon can, which is why tanks were invented in the first place? Do you expect a zeppelin to hover over the trenches and drop 50 lbs bombs on enemy machine guns? No, because no one had that many zeppelins. Tanks also won the war in 2014 in Donbass, as the side with the best, modern, and most capable tanks used in support of their poorly trained levy infantry screens won (Russia).

Also not sure why you're saying sieges aren't important. Sieges have been an important feature of wars since the 1990's. To name a few, Fallujah, Grozny, Basra, Baghdad, Raqqa, and Homs. There is a very noticeable siege going on right now if you watch the news, in fact.

Assaulting cities with infantry is necessary, but again, that just means that tanks are more important than ever. Tanks are arguably more important in urban warfare than in any other environment, because infantry require a powerful mobile cannon to defeat machine guns. Buildings are generally strong structures just by design and make good fortifications with minimal effort, which is why infantry portable weapons like the RPG-29 are generally insufficient to overcome them. You need a 125mm gun.

The closer the terrain is the more demanding it is for troops to be trained in small tactics to be able to minimize losses. OTOH the more troops you can bring to the fight (in reserves that is, not actually in theater or engaged) and more armor they have, the less you need to train in small tactics, because you'll have fewer losses overall and can keep moving troops in.

No light infantry force in the world, even given the recent success the VDV airborne troops had in securing a certain airfield against a motor rifle counter attack, can hold an object against an armored force of equivalent or larger size. The VDV were only successful because they broke off the object but stayed in contact with the motor rifle force to report its position to their incoming mechanized reinforcements. Then the VDV attacked with a combination of light infantry screening a mechanical force and secured the object.

The Egyptians tried something similar in 1973 and failed immediately when Adan's armored brigade busted their balls because they had only RPG-7s and Saggers against well drilled M60 tankers because they never had any armored troops coming to help them. The Allies failed against the Nazis in Market Garden only because they couldn't meet up with their mechanical reinforcements in time and couldn't abandon the object they were supposed to capture.

Screening tanks against anti-tank missiles is important, which means that they require a force of dismounted infantry if you're fighting like it's 2003, or robotic aircraft and light infantry if you're fighting like it's 2023, and both can find anti-tank missile teams and suppress them with machine guns, or destroy them with glide bombs sent through the windows or into their foxholes. The tank comes up and kills the machine gun and the infantry close to destroy the anti-tank missiles in close combat. The entire object can be isolated by smoke and fire curtains from a regimental artillery group. This is "how to attack a strongpoint" 101.

At no point has the tank changed status or been "demoted" because things can kill it. Proliferation of deadly weapons makes tanks more important, not less, because it means more things can kill things that aren't tanks. By mid-century we'll probably be at the point where individual soldiers in the open are at risk of being spontaneously combusted by man portable cruise missiles or super snipers and the only way for people to survive will be to be inside armored vehicles or wearing bulletproof suits.

Being an individual soldier is only important if the sensors facing you are insufficient to track an individual soldier's movement but sufficient to track a tank. This has not been the case for some time, as the United States was capable of tracking individual Taliban soldiers moving across the Hindu Kush with Joint STARS in the 2010's, and this will only increase in the future. It is now a liability and only armor can hope to protect you. You can't wear an active protection system and you can't wear enough steel plate to protect against machine gun bullets and still walk without a power source.

The tank will become increasingly important in the XXI and increasingly expensive as a result.
 
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I can see a multi-layered turret bristling with machine guns each with its own killer drone CPU bathing an area wit bullets. Stand up with MANPAD and get cut in half.
 

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