TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

this discussion on the Kaan's length brings back memories of how people on the internet had fierce debates on the J-20's length when it first came out.. right @Deino ?
Well that's usually what happens when heavy fighters get revealed for the first time. The exact numbers don't mean anything, what matters is, if things go the way they should, Turkey is going to have a very capable air superiority fighter on its hands. And I don't think there are no non-superpower countries that can match this capability until 2040 when GCAP and FCAS come online.

Basically Kaan is supposed to combine some unique features of Su-57 (DIRCM, Side Arrays, IRST) with Western stealth+sensor philosophy into an F-35 (VLO, EOTS/DAS, etc.) inspired airframe. It'll end up being an expensive but very unique and capable aircraft. This will make Aselsan's job very tough and there won't be many customers lining up except say, some Gulf countries.
 
We used to consider Turkey to be 'Asia Minor', not that makes it just another Asia stealth fighter.
 
Turkey belongs to neither Asia nor Europe. It is in its own geograpy. It is an Anatolian or at the very least a Eurasian country.

Now could we get back to the topic please???
That was one of the subtopics of this thread within the past 24 hours. I guess you meant discussion of its dimensions. I'm interested in its sensors but this model is devoid of most of that stuff. Turkey is too small an economy to support this design without hurting its people, so there must be partners. I am guessing UAE is lined up to invest but who else?
 
That was one of the subtopics of this thread within the past 24 hours. I guess you meant discussion of its dimensions. I'm interested in its sensors but this model is devoid of most of that stuff. Turkey is too small an economy to support this design without hurting its people, so there must be partners. I am guessing UAE is lined up to invest but who else?
Turkey is one of the leading countries in NATO, it has the 17th largest economy and TurAF is no African or Southeast Asian airforce either. Just the recent F-16V purchase tells you that 1) Turkey can afford large purchases 2) It continues to invest heavily in its air force.

I mean c'mon, just a couple of years ago they were planning to purchase 100+ F-35s AND develop the TF-X at the same time, has there been something huge to deter these investments? They haven't bought any new aircraft in the last 20 years except some 29 F-16B50+ and the recent 40 new F-16V order. They've been allocating budget for future projects (MMU/Kaan and F-35) all this time.

People should realize that economic problems you hear of every day don't have the same effect on governments and the people.
 
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View: https://x.com/TUSAS_TR/status/1760546187868828127?s=20
 
Turkey is one of the leading countries in NATO, it has the 17th largest economy and TurAF is no African or Southeast Asian airforce either. Just the recent F-16V purchase tells you that 1) Turkey can afford large purchases 2) It continues to invest heavily in its air force.

I mean c'mon, just a couple of years ago they were planning to purchase 100+ F-35s AND develop the TF-X at the same time, has there been something huge to deter these investments? They haven't bought any new aircraft in the last 20 years except some 29 F-16B50+ and the recent 40 new F-16V order. They've been allocating budget for future projects (MMU/Kaan and F-35) all this time.

People should realize that economic problems you hear of every day don't have the same effect on governments and the people.

Yes and no while turkey is a large a fairly developed economy , irresponsible state finaces are hardly conducive enviroment .
And as it occasionally slips under sanctions regimes by both US and EU , making a plane with 80+ foreign made and developed content always carries some risk that these projects could be snufed out at will.

Turkish defence industry and arms purchases relly heavily on Qatar funding in in exchange for Turk protection against Sauds.

Not to disimilar to how many of Egypt's arms purchases are financed by third countries
 
Yes and no while turkey is a large a fairly developed economy , irresponsible state finaces are hardly conducive enviroment .
And as it occasionally slips under sanctions regimes by both US and EU , making a plane with 80+ foreign made and developed content always carries some risk that these projects could be snufed out at will.

Turkish defence industry and arms purchases relly heavily on Qatar funding in in exchange for Turk protection against Sauds.

Not to disimilar to how many of Egypt's arms purchases are financed by third countries
IMG_20240222_161623.jpg
 
Space allocated for main AESA radar is -simply to put it- HUGLE
 

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Thanks ... a very reasonable report, even if at the Key-Forum some won't like it. 1708624642525.png


Indeed ... and new models are popping up like mushrooms after a warm spring-shower ... IMO this does not make it more realistically.

View attachment 627733

I must admit, after reading the last posts I'm again even more concerned since a lot of speculations were mentioned - ranging from a Russian engine, a Eurojet EJ230 or similar ... - but from all I know, TAI is still claiming to roll out a prototype in March 2023. As such isn't it most urgent to have a final decision, to finalise the design and start preparing construction?

If the decision is still not being made on a F110 - which I took for granted - any change again to another European design or a Russian one would require a much wider redesign and as such even further delay the project.

But again, no answer from our Turkish friends ...

Great idea, so they can hype another first.

Thanks ... but again, none of the previously mentioned questions is answered and even more none of the posts explains how they want to hold that self-proclaimed schedule?

That's exactly that attitude that annoys so many: South Korea indeed is fully dependent on US systems like engines (not unlike Turkey) but they admit it, they make the best out of their situation with a NOT less ambitious and sure more realistic concept. They have built a vast experience over the year with licence manufacturing, cooperation and in recent years even indigenous designs ... in contrast to Turkey they have at least successfully completed development of several projects, whereas Turkey has what archived so far?

Like @kaiserd just noted and I would even extend it to nothing but "ultra-nationalist rhetoric"!

But again, let's wait and see but don't be upset when the whole world of aviation enthusiasts will make a lot of fun if nothing happens.

But why should a fully assembled prototype be ready in 10 months and then wait another 8 for roll out?

Not that I don't think the first date is manageable anyway.

It's like watching a traincrash in slow motion @Deino
 
It's like watching a traincrash in slow motion @Deino


No, it only shows - and I repeatedly admitted it - that I made a mistake with my assumption, but still I'm most sceptical - even more so as some portray this surely promising type as the "ruler of the sly!".
For the moment it is as much a demonstrator like the J-20 demonstrator no. 2001 was in 2011: A promising project albeit just a demonstrator prototype, powered by much too weak interim engines And as long this issue it not solved I see all this big talk of "in 2028 the first serial production aircraft will fly, in 8 years we'll have a 160+ kN engine on our own and so many countries are all waiting to buy it" just as talk.
This does not mean I deny all achievements so far, in fact I again admit I was wrong, but developing a true reliable and powerful high-end 5th generation engine is still a long way to go and even a small TF-6000 for an UAV does not change the fact, that an engine in the needed class is something totally different.

Again. I wish them luck and even more I have no problem if you celebrate my wrong assumption as well as if when I'm proven wrong again, but until let's wait ...
 
this discussion on the Kaan's length brings back memories of how people on the internet had fierce debates on the J-20's length when it first came out.. right @Deino ?


Indeed, however for the J-20 most armchair-analysts don't wanted to accept the J-20 to be in fact smaller (or shorter) than a Flanker and posted such BS as if it would be a 23m mega-fighter comparable to the F-111, here however some seem to directly claim to have the longest (fighter) one. ;)
 
They are american, 40 year old tech engines. Same for Boramae: F414 are not truly up-to-date engines. What do I mean ? Think of F119 and F135 engines. That's the key. If you want to supercruise, full stealth, something akin to F119 or F135 is needed. No F100, F110 or F404 family.

The Chinese are still hard at work trying to achieve that level of advanced engine for the J-20.

Bottom line: getting such engines running and flying is no picnic.

-----------

By the way, this thread is packed full with rampant nationalism and some related irrespect. Some people should REALLY cool down.

And I'm with @Deino here, he has my full support. He has done an impeccable job on chinese types, and then he gets carbonized here ?
Sue me.
 
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Too weak according to what exactly?


Well, just for a moment please ignore your national pride and think: A fighter larger - MUCH, aka THE LARGEST as some want to portray it here with even bigger pride ;) - than the F-15, F-22 and as such Su-57 and J-20 uses two "old" F110-GE-129 engines with a thrust of 131.2 kN!

I think this says all ... some of you bashed the J-20 as "underpowered" when it used the initial AL-31FN or FM-based engines, still with the current WS-10C delivering allegedly a 145kn of thrust some say it cannot be a true 5th generation fighter since a true super-cruise-capability is "questionable" and now you tell me a much weaker engine with even lesser thrust is sufficient?

Come on ... it's enough for the initial test-phase of fling in circles and basic testing, photo-shooting for PR-stunts but not as a true operational 5th generation fighter. Simply accept it, there is still a long way to go.
 
We still don't have a confirmation of weapon bays config though. It may have changed, the one below was presented during Anatolian Eagle '21.

View attachment 720643
View attachment 720644
First slide makes it look like the side bays are for Sidewinders/ASRAAMs, AMRAAMs/Meteors in the long center bay. With how long a Sidewinder is, if you can find the space you really should make the side bays AMRAAM length.

Second slide shows AMRAAMs, Meteors, and what's that third AMRAAM-sized missile? Turkish home-build?


They are american, 40 year old tech engines. Same for Boramae: F414 are not truly up-to-date engines. What do I mean ? Think of F119 and F135 engines. That's the key. If you want to supercruise, full stealth, something akin to F119 or F135 is needed. No F100, F110 or F404 family.
They're available and Turkey has lots of spares from their F16s.

Lets them get test flying for initial flight control law proofing and early envelope expansion, even if the final engine isn't ready yet.


Come on ... it's enough for the initial test-phase of fling in circles and basic testing, photo-shooting for PR-stunts but not as a true operational 5th generation fighter. Simply accept it, there is still a long way to go.
Since TAI has also come out and said that the definitive Kaan will not use F110s but a home-grown engine, I think this is partly because the home-grown engine just wasn't ready yet and F110s are good enough for early flight testing.

It'd be like flying the YF22 on F100 or F110 engines for first flight and envelope expansion, when you're not concerned about acceleration or supercruise, or whatever else requires the F119 instead of an F110. High end F110s have very nearly the same total thrust as an F119 (32k vs 35k)
 
I really hate that canopy bar. I hope they'll replace it before the serial production. It does a disservice to all other RCS-reducing features of the aircraft.

The bar is there for structural integrity purposes. Eventually it will either be moved inside the canopy where it won’t impact RCS or, if they remove it altogether, require a thicker one-piece canopy like the one you see on F-22 and pay major weight penalty.

Alternatively they can introduce sawtooth on the canopy frame like they did for the two seat J-20. Doubt that will happen though.
 
Well, just for a moment please ignore your national pride and think: A fighter larger - MUCH, aka THE LARGEST as some want to portray it here with even bigger pride ;) - than the F-15, F-22 and as such Su-57 and J-20 uses two "old" F110-GE-129 engines with a thrust of 131.2 kN!

I think this says all ... some of you bashed the J-20 as "underpowered" when it used the initial AL-31FN or FM-based engines, still with the current WS-10C delivering allegedly a 145kn of thrust some say it cannot be a true 5th generation fighter since a true super-cruise-capability is "questionable" and now you tell me a much weaker engine with even lesser thrust is sufficient?

Come on ... it's enough for the initial test-phase of fling in circles and basic testing, photo-shooting for PR-stunts but not as a true operational 5th generation fighter. Simply accept it, there is still a long way to go.
Kaan is neither the longest nor the widest 5th generation fighter out there. That belongs to the J-20 and Su-57 respectively.

I wouldn't call the J-20 underpowered and thus not too weak too. It just isn't able to supercruise but that shouldn't be a problem against any fighter not able to supercruise too. The footages of J-20 maneuverability speaks volumes, it isn't any less maneuverable than any 4th generation fighter and I bet it outmaneuvers an F-35 easily whether it's relevant or not in modern aerial combat.

The Kaan neither being the longest, nor the widest thus shouldn't be heavier than other fighters classified as 5th generation. As a matter of fact, I believe extensive use of modern materials in the Kaan, whether it already has or will have, will have a positive impact on its weight.

The heaviest part of a fighter is situated between its radar array and the engine nozzles. Measuring the distance between these points, one can deduce roughly how heavy a fighter will be. These are for the Kaan: 16,92meters, F-22: 15,45meters, J-20: 18,4meters and the Su-57 16,72meters. The F-22 is the densest out there with 1229kg per meter (assuming 19 tons empty weight), followed by the Su-57 (assuming 18,5 tons) with 1106kg per meter and the J-20 (assuming 17,5 tons) with 951kg per meter.

Taking the two fighters closest in size to the Kaan, J-20 for the length and Su-57 for the width, let us take the average of these (1106+951/2=1028kg) and apply it to the Kaan and the result is 17400kg give or take. Add the 65% that's been cut off of the horizontal stabilizers in this measurement, that weigh 235kg each, add another 300kg and another 50-100kg for the radar radome, we arrive at the final result of 17,8 tons rounded up empty weight for the Kaan.

With the Kaan weighing 17,8 tons, a wing area of 78 square meters and a thrust of 58000lbs should perform kinematically better than a Flanker mainly because of 16% more favorable wingloading (228kg/m2 vs 264kg/m2)

Conclusion, Kaan with F110 won't be able to supercruise but is more maneuverable than a 'supermaneuverable' Flanker.

I wouldn't call that too weak.
 
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The bar is there for structural integrity purposes. Eventually it will either be moved inside the canopy where it won’t impact RCS or, if they remove it altogether, require a thicker one-piece canopy like the one you see on F-22 and pay major weight penalty.

Alternatively they can introduce sawtooth on the canopy frame like they did for the two seat J-20. Doubt that will happen though.

Think they'll keep this design, with the two piece canopy - thicker windscreen and thinner jettison area, similar to the F-35 canopy.
 
First slide makes it look like the side bays are for Sidewinders/ASRAAMs, AMRAAMs/Meteors in the long center bay. With how long a Sidewinder is, if you can find the space you really should make the side bays AMRAAM length.

Second slide shows AMRAAMs, Meteors, and what's that third AMRAAM-sized missile? Turkish home-build?
Their names were mentioned just to give the audience some idea (mind the parenthesis), the bays are designed around Bozdogan(WVR,, AIM-9XBII equivalent), Gökdogan(BVR, AIM-210C7 equivalent) and Gökhan (Liquid fuel ramjet, Meteor equivalent) missiles.

These indigenous missiles are also not just some copies, while they might look alike, they are thicker than their American equivalents as an example and they also happen to have dual pulse capabilities. They are also launched from the same rails and fed information from the same radar, so it makes sense that they would look similar to American missiles.

Equipped with a high-resolution dual-color Imaging Infra-Red (IIR) seeker designed and developed by TÜBİTAK-SAGE, with a comprehensive off-boresight capability, along with advanced countermeasures, BOZDOĞAN is a WVR AAM with an effective range of 25km. According to TÜBİTAK SAGE, the BOZDOĞAN missile can travel at a speed of around Mach 4. According to technical specs, the BOZDOĞAN has a length of 330cm, a weight of 140kg, and 160mm diameter. Equipped with Aselsan’s solid-state, single-source Ku-Band active RF seeker with a mechanical gimbal GÖKDOĞAN BVR AAM, with advanced countermeasure capability and data link update, it has a range of 65km. Powered by solid fuel dual pulse rocket motor GÖKDOĞAN can travel at a speed of Mach 4. BOZDOĞAN is equipped with TVC capability for superior maneuverability and off-boresight launch capability. BOZDOĞAN currently does not feature data link capability, but it is believed that this capability would be gained in the serial production phase. The data link capability, which also adds LOAL (Lock-on After Launch) capability to the missile, will increase BOZDOĞAN's engagement zone that significantly improves the maximum engagement range. Both missiles are powered by smokeless solid propellant rocket motors and will have a High Explosive (HE) warhead with a blast/fragmentation effect and a laser proximity fuse.
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...-test-of-bozdogan-wvr-air-to-air-missile-4490
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/bozdagan-gokdogan-missiles-enter-serial-production-5736

The quoted ranges are open to some speculation though. Army and the Air Force usually give NEZ or (at least near-NEZ ranges) as official figures(this part has been confirmed), and this would be in line with these missiles' and their equivalents' capabilities. But they are never going to publish top secret data though.

maxresdefault.jpg

GOKDOGAN-BOZDOGAN.jpg

60770ea1d2237.jpg


Anyway, I hope I managed to clarify some things or at least informed you a little.
 
The bar is there for structural integrity purposes. Eventually it will either be moved inside the canopy where it won’t impact RCS or, if they remove it altogether, require a thicker one-piece canopy like the one you see on F-22 and pay major weight penalty.

Alternatively they can introduce sawtooth on the canopy frame like they did for the two seat J-20. Doubt that will happen though.
Well the canopy/the canopy glass is already not that large, at least compared to other aircraft, they could technically develop a one piece canopy but I think the current design is sadly here to stay.

I also hated it on J-20S when it first got revealed but thank God that the S version turned out to be a demonstrator/ internally financed prototype for CAC's own use.
 
Their names were mentioned just to give the audience some idea (mind the parenthesis), the bays are designed around Bozdogan(WVR,, AIM-9XBII equivalent), Gökdogan(BVR, AIM-210C7 equivalent) and Gökhan (Liquid fuel ramjet, Meteor equivalent) missiles.

These indigenous missiles are also not just some copies, while they might look alike, they are thicker than their American equivalents as an example and they also happen to have dual pulse capabilities. They are also launched from the same rails and fed information from the same radar, so it makes sense that they would look similar to American missiles.
Oh, man, Turkey is really stepping up in the defense industry!

Anyway, I hope I managed to clarify some things or at least informed you a little.
This was a great help, thank you!

I still would hope that the Turks made the side bays 12ft long (AMRAAM length) instead of 10ft long (Sidewinder length) if they only hold one missile each.

I'd been harboring a funny idea that the Turks had made the side bays F-35 volume, plus the center bays, but that does NOT appear to be the case.
 
I still would hope that the Turks made the side bays 12ft long (AMRAAM length) instead of 10ft long (Sidewinder length) if they only hold one missile each.
Exactly! That's exactly what I had wished and wrote here a year ago. Sadly, acc. to -again- @paralay 's calculation, side bays or what we think as space for the side bays could barely hold a single Bozdogan(WVR) missile each. I think they could've designed the internal space more efficiently. But thankfully the current prototype is essentially just a tech demonstrator and this could change with the real prototype which is in assembly right now.

See below:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/tai-tf-x-milli-muharip-uçak-mmu-kaan.13448/post-597595

Truly exciting times!
I'd been harboring a funny idea that the Turks had made the side bays F-35 volume, plus the center bays, but that does NOT appear to be the case.
I wrote designed acc- to the dimentions of AA missiles, but the internal volume is actually designed for the SOM-J missile (or some other 1000lb bomb or missile). This was a mistake in my opinion and so far everyone seems to agree with this.

E-nxCF2WYAA9J2t.jpg



Fun fact: This missile was actually once pitched together with Lockheed against the JSM/NSM missile before the whole S-400/F-35 drama began.

Here's its mock-up inside the F-35, photographed during fitting tests.

SOM-Jtucked.jpeg

F-35-ALCM-test.jpg


https://theaviationist.com/2014/10/22/f-35-som-j-tests/


View: https://youtu.be/YcH_lMktthk?feature=shared
 
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Kaan is neither the longest nor the widest 5th generation fighter out there. That belongs to the J-20 and Su-57 respectively.

I wouldn't call the J-20 underpowered and thus not too weak too. It just isn't able to supercruise but that shouldn't be a problem against any fighter not able to supercruise too. The footages of J-20 maneuverability speaks volumes, it isn't any less maneuverable than any 4th generation fighter and I bet it outmaneuvers an F-35 easily whether it's relevant or not in modern aerial combat.

The Kaan neither being the longest, nor the widest thus shouldn't be heavier than other fighters classified as 5th generation. As a matter of fact, I believe extensive use of modern materials in the Kaan, whether it already has or will have, will have a positive impact on its weight.

The heaviest part of a fighter is situated between its radar array and the engine nozzles. Measuring the distance between these points, one can deduce roughly how heavy a fighter will be. These are for the Kaan: 16,92meters, F-22: 15,45meters, J-20: 18,4meters and the Su-57 16,72meters. The F-22 is the densest out there with 1229kg per meter (assuming 19 tons empty weight), followed by the Su-57 (assuming 18,5 tons) with 1106kg per meter and the J-20 (assuming 17,5 tons) with 951kg per meter.

Taking the two fighters closest in size to the Kaan, J-20 for the length and Su-57 for the width, let us take the average of these (1106+951/2=1028kg) and apply it to the Kaan and the result is 17400kg give or take. Add the 65% that's been cut off of the horizontal stabilizers in this measurement, that weigh 235kg each, add another 300kg and another 50-100kg for the radar radome, we arrive at the final result of 17,8 tons rounded up empty weight for the Kaan.

With the Kaan weighing 17,8 tons, a wing area of 78 square meters and a thrust of 58000lbs should perform kinematically better than a Flanker mainly because of 16% more favorable wingloading (228kg/m2 vs 264kg/m2)

Conclusion, Kaan with F110 won't be able to supercruise but is more maneuverable than a 'supermaneuverable' Flanker.

I wouldn't call that too weak.

Also keep in mind that Kaan allegedly uses electron beam based 3D printing for key titanium structural components. That not only cuts down on cost of titanium wastage but also can make the same parts lighter and stronger. That’s also a lot of weight shaved off the final aircraft.
 
The Chinese are still hard at work trying to achieve that level of advanced engine for the J-20.
They have achieved it though. First with semi-fifth gen WS-10C and then finally with WS-15 a year ago. And we've had confirmation that the latter is indeed in LRIP. @Deino @Blitzo @siegecrossbow

Anyway, this is totally irrelevant but just wanted to correct this part.
 
I wrote designed acc- to the dimentions of AA missiles, but the internal volume is actually designed for the SOM-J missile (or some other 1000lb bomb or missile). This was a mistake in my opinion and so far everyone seems to agree with this.
For the side bay? weird but makes sense to me. Lets you put the bomb in a bay and not lose your BVRAAMs.
 
Basically Kaan is supposed to combine some unique features of Su-57 (DIRCM, Side Arrays, IRST) with Western stealth+sensor philosophy into an F-35 (VLO, EOTS/DAS, etc.) inspired airframe. It'll end up being an expensive but very unique and capable aircraft. This will make Aselsan's job very tough and there won't be many customers lining up except say, some Gulf countries.
If Kaan has good range (Su27 or better), I see Malaysia as a potential buyer. Their country has a LOT of airspace to cover, but not a lot of land.
 
I understand the KAAN has 2 tandem main bays and 2 side bays.
but when looking at this pic, it looks like it has 3 main bays side by side, and 2 side bays
*zooms in*

I suppose there could be another bay under each inlet. I'm not sure what avionics they'd put there that would need a 10-12ft long access door, but Sidewinders or AMRAAMs need doors that long.
 
*zooms in*

I suppose there could be another bay under each inlet. I'm not sure what avionics they'd put there that would need a 10-12ft long access door, but Sidewinders or AMRAAMs need doors that long.
@helmutkohl Guys, don't waste your time. As we've covered several pages earlier, this prototype doesn't have any weapon bays installed. Instead of that there are access panels in place.

The one that flew is a Block 0 aircraft and it is actually a ground test prototype, essentially a technology demonstrator made airworthy. According to some previous statements, the real prototype (P1, not GTU-0) should actually be in assembly by now.
 
Kaan is neither the longest nor the widest 5th generation fighter out there. That belongs to the J-20 and Su-57 respectively.
...

You are really funny! On the one side your reply above and then this insisting in being the largest!

Stop using his wrong calculations. TAI has given official dimensions of 21x14x6. No need for a rando to come up with his own wrong views.

Based on imagery the overall conclusion now for the J-20 is a length of 20.40-20.8 and a span of 12.90-13.40 against your own claim of 21x14. So where is the J-20 larger? The Su-57 is anyway out of this stupid comparison.
 

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