Study finds female body form more efficient for space travel

[martinbayer]

Nah, brains gonna beat brawns in this here techno universe any day of the week now ...

 

[aim9xray]

Better by far would be to baseline slightly chubby, but very muscular, men of well over six feet. Big, heavy, requiring more food, water, life support. Because once you've got that, you can take anybody worth taking.

Et tu, Brute?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Nah, brains gonna beat brawns in this here techno universe any day of the week now ...

Brains come in bodies of all sizes. And humans are not the sum total of critters that will need transporting.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Et tu, Brute?

Who's doing what now?

 

[_Del_]

Then with a lower crew mass on average, it is logical to come to that conclusion.

Offset by the 1200 bottles of shampoo and conditioner packed by each crew member for the six month trip.

 

[Kat Tsun]

Men, in extreme cases, will stuff each other's face and become best friends after that. Women will take revenge forever

Concrete evidence or just misogynistic bromance BS?

Real life experience, observed personally and repeatedly

ÐеÑелÑе коÑоÑÑÑиÑеÑÑð¤£

by ðºðððð ð½ððððð

coub.com

He's just showing him who's the boss of that gym.

Men, in extreme cases, will stuff each other

Enough said.

ROTFL

There's a reason dudes signed up to serve on metal tubes under the sea for six months at a time.

 

[publiusr]

I've always thought that on average women make much better astronaut candidates than men - higher social aptitudes, lower body masses, lower caloric needs, etc.. In a more rational and enlightened world, NASA would have gone with the Mercury 13 rather than the Mercury 7.

I remember a similar argument made in a documentary that held that Redstone could have been smaller. But even if the Mercury capsule had been scaled for Peter Dinklage…it still would have been suborbital most likely.

I did like the movie ANNIHILATION though.

I understand men now use as much beauty products as women…the metro thing.

I have no problem with rockets of different shapes, though Bono’s saucer would be easier than this:

"Vulva Spaceship" aims to counter prevalence of phallic spacecraft

Yes their are reasons LVs look like telephone poles…but lenticular designs have strengths…wide flat payloads that can deploy further into sails?

 

[Archibald]

There's a reason dudes signed up to serve on metal tubes under the sea for six months at a time.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zWBwQGR73E

They're signing up new seamen fast

Silliest joke ever. I wonder if the USN admirals who loaned the warship to the band, got the joke... when you think about it, that song for its era was rather provocative, particularly that kind of double entendre. And still, they got the warship.

 

[Archibald]

Then with a lower crew mass on average, it is logical to come to that conclusion.

Offset by the 1200 bottles of shampoo and conditioner packed by each crew member for the six month trip.

Stefan Baxter in Voyage has Natalie York ranting about it to the macho NASA chief astronaut.
"Then take an all female crew. No need for separate showers then."

 

[jeffb]

I've always thought that on average women make much better astronaut candidates than men - higher social aptitudes, lower body masses, lower caloric needs, etc.. In a more rational and enlightened world, NASA would have gone with the Mercury 13 rather than the Mercury 7.

How many of the "Mercury 13" were test pilots?

This is a little unfair, how many female pilots (let alone test pilots) did the USAF have back when they were putting the Mercury 7 team together?

They could have if they'd wanted but I suspect it was a cultural thing.



Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova

That aside, I, for one, welcome our new female astronaut overlords!

I have some uniform suggestions if anyone's interested...



EDIT: Non forum specific emojis keep disappearing. I'm sure I'll figure it out one day.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Some rather sexist opinions on display here.

Differences between the sexes certainly exist, but are largely statistical in nature (men on average are stronger, women on average are more social) and should not be used to judge individuals' suitability for specific tasks. Many women are stronger than I am, and some women will be socially more awkward than me. I excelled in English, which is typically a subject women do better at.

Original article is firmly based on science -

Effects of body size and countermeasure exercise on estimates of life support resources during all-female crewed exploration missions," the team utilized an approach developed to estimate the effects of body "size" on life support requirements in male astronauts. For all parameters at all statures, estimates for females were lower than for comparable male astronauts.

When considering the limited space, energy, weight, and life support systems packed into a spacecraft on a long mission, the study finds that the female form is the most efficient body type for space exploration.

There may be other factors that favour male astronauts, but this study was specifically looking at one area.

 

[njiiaf]

There may be other factors that favour male astronauts, but this study was specifically looking at one area.

If you think those factors wouldn't be ignored for political reasons in this day and age, I've gotta very large bridge to sell you.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova

There are many women you can look to as adequate-to-extraordinary astronauts. Tereshkova is not one. She was as token as you can get, and it took decades for the Russians to try again. She was merely payload, and reportedly kinda freaked out while up there.

 

[Orionblamblam]

When considering the limited space, energy, weight, and life support systems packed into a spacecraft on a long mission, the study finds that the female form is the most efficient body type for space exploration.

Ah, but *which* female form? Lizzo? Lia Thomas? Brittney Griner?

 

[Orionblamblam]

How many of the "Mercury 13" were test pilots?

This is a little unfair, how many female pilots (let alone test pilots) did the USAF have back when they were putting the Mercury 7 team together?

It wasn't "unfair," it was reality. Let's say I'm a bajillionaire, but I have me some brain cancer. I announce that I am ready to put up two billion dollars to the surgical team that can, within one month, successfully perform the McCoy/Crusher/Pulaski Procedure, the only operation known to be effective against my type of tumor. But there is only one team - McCoy, Crusher and Pulaski - who have actually trained to do this and have in fact done it. Anyone else will require six months training, minimum. Is it *unfair* to all the other brain surgeons that they don't have the skills necessary to earn two billion dollars? How about all the truck drivers and electricians and burger flippers who don't have the skills, talent, intelligence, hand/eye coordination to do the operation? I'm cutting *them* right out of the running.

 

[Hood]

The study seems flawed being based on energy consumption alone.
I am surprised that it didn't cover muscle wastage and bone density issues. Astronauts can loose up to 2 decades worth of bone density after 6 months in space and even after 4 months on earth isn't fully restored and some never recover. Given that women can suffer further osteoporosis after the menopause it would seem that more research would be needed in this area as to long term health impacts.

If life support systems is that much of an issue then don't bother with manned missions and build better robot missions instead. We keep hearing a lot about AI - well let's see the proof of the pudding, build an AI-scientist robot rover and let's see what it can do.

 

[Dilandu]

She was as token as you can get, and it took decades for the Russians to try again. She was merely payload, and reportedly kinda freaked out while up there.

Sadly, true. She wasn't the best candidate, and was chosen specifically because of her "ideologically right" biography. USSR in 1960s started to turn increasingly sexist (which was a big step back from before), so the program of female spaceflight was never considered as anything more than propaganda tool.

 

[jeffb]

Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova

There are many women you can look to as adequate-to-extraordinary astronauts.

But not in the time period we're talking about.

Tereshkova is not one. She was as token as you can get, and it took decades for the Russians to try again. She was merely payload, and reportedly kinda freaked out while up there.

Yep, an engineer from a soviet tractor factory or something. But she got the job done (such as it was). Did she do an objectively worse job than any of the Mercury 7 test pilots? Nope.

 

[Orionblamblam]

But she got the job done (such as it was). Did she do an objectively worse job than any of the Mercury 7 test pilots? Nope.

Her job was to not die. Mercury astronauts were expected to actually do stuff. She was a more photogenic version of a NASA chimp.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Is there any documented evidence of her performance 'up there'? Not calling anyone out but it would be useful to see, likewise any other candidates who flew in super rareified atmosphere or absence thereof.

 

[jeffb]

Is there any documented evidence of her performance 'up there'? Not calling anyone out but it would be useful to see, likewise any other candidates who flew in super rareified atmosphere or absence thereof.

Don't know about 'documented' but did find the following:

This Week in Rocket History: Vostok 6

This week in rocket history, we look back at the first woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova, and her flight aboard Vostok 6.

cosmoquest.org

Unlike Bykovsky, Tereshkova had more success observing the Earth and stars through the Vzor periscope and porthole. She took several video recordings of forests and streams passing below from inside the spacecraft. Tereshkova threw up once after eating particularly dry bread, and unfortunately, that wasn’t the only problem encountered on the flight. On her first day in orbit, she noticed a problem with the deorbit motor. If it had fired as intended, instead of coming back to Earth she would have been sent to a higher orbit, where her life support would have been depleted before the spacecraft’s orbit decayed due to atmospheric drag. This, quite frankly, would have killed her. Luckily the programming was fixed and the deorbit on the third day of the mission was nominal.

Astronautix piece is good as well and includes some of her debriefing.

Vostok 6

Vostok 6

astronautix.com

 

[Dilandu]

Her job was to not die. Mercury astronauts were expected to actually do stuff. She was a more photogenic version of a NASA chimp.

Incorrect as usual. They actually performed the first ever methodical observation of Earth atmosphere from manned spacecraft. The data from Vostok-5 & Vostok-6 dual flight was used to identify stratospheric aerosol layers.

 

[njiiaf]

Nah, brains gonna beat brawns in this here techno universe any day of the week now ...

It’s a good thing men have an edge in that department too…

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

@njiiaf unlabelled curves of unknown origin. Are men red or blue in this diagram? Well, that's me convinced anyway.

IQ is a single measure of intelligence. I took an online IQ test that only did spatial awareness questions. Does that fairly measure my "intelligence?".

"there are both differences and similarities in the cognitive abilities of women and men, but there is no data-based rationale to support the idea that either is the smarter or superior sex.

 

[njiiaf]

@njiiaf unlabelled curves of unknown origin. Are men red or blue in this diagram? Well, that's me convinced anyway.

IQ is a single measure of intelligence. I took an online IQ test that only did spatial awareness questions. Does that fairly measure my "intelligence?".

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Gaussian-distribution-of-IQ-of-men-s-162-and-women-s-132_fig1_344751288

"there are both differences and similarities in the cognitive abilities of women and men, but there is no data-based rationale to support the idea that either is the smarter or superior sex.

That's blatantly false. Men are, on average, both smarter and dumber than women having a higher distribution of I.Q. scores. When accounting for age, however, since males tend to develop later than women, men have a higher average I.Q. by several points. That's why all of the best chest players are men, why there are considerably more male geniuses than women.

Now granted, this should all be taken on a case-by-case bases. But you can reasonably assume that astronauts would be typically be in a higher IQ bracket. Therefore, it wouldn't be surprising if male astronauts had higher average IQ's than female astronauts.

If you are going to use the higher efficiency of the female body to justify having all-female space missions, it wouldn't be a greater stretch to justify the greater intelligence of the male brain at higher IQ brackets to justify having all-male space missions.

But this is silly isn't it?

There are far more factors that should determine the makeup of a mission like this. And there is no guarantee that there aren't female astronauts who are more intelligent or male astronauts who have smaller and more efficient bodies.
Unfortunately, this is 2023, and since this study benefits women there will be fewer people pointing out the logical fallacies in the argument. Its all just a massive double standard.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Her job was to not die. Mercury astronauts were expected to actually do stuff. She was a more photogenic version of a NASA chimp.

Incorrect as usual. They actually performed the first ever methodical observation of Earth atmosphere from manned spacecraft. The data from Vostok-5 & Vostok-6 dual flight was used to identify stratospheric aerosol layers.

Well, there's that.

 

[Orionblamblam]

@njiiaf unlabelled curves of unknown origin. Are men red or blue in this diagram?

Men are blue. In quite a number of metrics, humans break down into statistical bell curves, with noticeable differences between men and women. In intellignce, the male curve tends to have a lower central peak with somewhat more area under the far ends: this means more geniuses *and* more absolute morons. This also seems to be true for measures such as "risk taking" (i.e damnfoolishness), leading to more men being willing and downright eager to hurl themselves off buildings, dive off cliffs, run with bulls, volunteer for combat, charge into burning buildings, race cars at impossible speeds... and shooting themselves into space.

So while back in the 50's it was certainly possible to find, say, 13 American women the right age and physical standard willing to ride a rocket and smart enough to be astronauts... the field of American *men* not only able to do the same but *willing* to do so was far vaster.

 

[martinbayer]

Men, in extreme cases, will stuff each other's face and become best friends after that. Women will take revenge forever

Concrete evidence or just misogynistic bromance BS?

Real life experience, observed personally and repeatedly

ÐеÑелÑе коÑоÑÑÑиÑеÑÑð¤£

by ðºðððð ð½ððððð

coub.com

He's just showing him who's the boss of that gym.

Men, in extreme cases, will stuff each other

Enough said.

ROTFL

There's a reason dudes signed up to serve on metal tubes under the sea for six months at a time.

You do realize that women serve on USN ballistic missile subs, see for example https://mybighornbasin.com/uss-wyoming-first-navy-submarine-with-an-all-women-crew/?

 

[martinbayer]

There's a reason dudes signed up to serve on metal tubes under the sea for six months at a time.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zWBwQGR73E

They're signing up new seamen fast

Silliest joke ever. I wonder if the USN admirals who loaned the warship to the band, got the joke... when you think about it, that song for its era was rather provocative, particularly that kind of double entendre. And still, they got the warship.

Brought to you by the school of thought that any publicity is good publicity.

 

[martinbayer]

Then with a lower crew mass on average, it is logical to come to that conclusion.

Offset by the 1200 bottles of shampoo and conditioner packed by each crew member for the six month trip.

Stefan Baxter in Voyage has Natalie York ranting about it to the macho NASA chief astronaut.
"Then take an all female crew. No need for separate showers then."

That argument cuts either way though.

 

[martinbayer]

She was as token as you can get, and it took decades for the Russians to try again. She was merely payload, and reportedly kinda freaked out while up there.

Sadly, true. She wasn't the best candidate, and was chosen specifically because of her "ideologically right" biography. USSR in 1960s started to turn increasingly sexist (which was a big step back from before), so the program of female spaceflight was never considered as anything more than propaganda tool.

Frankly, I think in a twisted way her flight was a success in proving that even (less than?) mediocre candidates can be astronauts.

 

[Orionblamblam]

She was merely payload, and reportedly kinda freaked out while up there.

Sadly, true.

She was a more photogenic version of a NASA chimp.

Incorrect as usual.

Wait...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Frankly, I think in a twisted way her flight was a success in proving that even (less than?) mediocre candidates can be astronauts.

Which then argues against the basic thesis this thread is built on.
A: "We should send women because they weigh less and consume less."
B: "What does it matter what a crewpersxn weighs and consumes if they're not actually useful?"
A: "Shut up."

The metric, as it always is, is productivity over cost. If a particular employee was only paid half as much as the baseline, but did one-tenth the productive labor as another, you'd fire them ASAP. If another employee cost twice as much but produced ten times as much, you'd work to retain them... and to get *more* just like them.

 

[Dilandu]

Wait...

Sadly true - she wasn't the best candidate possible, chosen more for ideological purposes, and she kinda "freaked out" on orbit. I suspect she may be seriously disturbed when she find out that the attitude controls were accidentally reversed, and ship on manual was doing the opposite of required command.

Incorrect as usual - your assumption that she did nothing in her flight, merely providing physiological data. There was a series of experiment planned for both Vostok-5 and Vostok-6. While not all of them were completed due to series of reasons, they still provided valuable scientific data.

 

[jeffb]

She was as token as you can get, and it took decades for the Russians to try again. She was merely payload, and reportedly kinda freaked out while up there.

Sadly, true. She wasn't the best candidate, and was chosen specifically because of her "ideologically right" biography. USSR in 1960s started to turn increasingly sexist (which was a big step back from before), so the program of female spaceflight was never considered as anything more than propaganda tool.

Frankly, I think in a twisted way her flight was a success in proving that even (less than?) mediocre candidates can be astronauts.

Read what happened on Vostok 5 and 6. This was only launches 4 and 5 after Gagarin. There were equipment failures, the food was so bad it made her throw up. She was unable to complete some of assigned tasks because she couldn't reach them in her suit but Bykovsky didn't complete all of his assigned tasks either, amongst other 'issues':

On Vostok 5 (in orbit at the same time) Bykovsky also experienced an unspecified problem with his waste management system (a spill?) which made conditions in the cabin 'very uncomfortable' (ED: I'll bet!). He was finally ordered to return after only five days in space. To top it all off, once again the Vostok service module failed to separate cleanly from the reentry sphere. Wild gyrations ensued until the heat of reentry burned through the non-separating retraining strap.

When they ordered Bykovsky to reenter they ordered Tereshkova to return as well. It was day 5 for Bykovsky and day 3 for Tereshkova.
The woman identified a deadly programming issue on her first day up fer cryin' out loud! Sounds like a job well done to me.

I'm thinking she got a raw deal.

 

[Desertfox]

The requirement that the Mercury 7 be test-pilots was a political one and not a NASA one. NASA didn't want to have to deal with test-pilots and their egos.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

You're all overlooking the obvious answer of putting a bunch of brains in jars and have them go. No body = minimal resource drain. They can be wired up directly to the computers.

Who needs all those redundant capabilities in all those other organs? Those are just blocking efficiency.

 

[CJGibson]

You're all overlooking the obvious answer of putting a bunch of brains in jars and have them go. No body = minimal resource drain. They can be wired up directly to the computers.

Who needs all those redundant capabilities in all those other organs? Those are just blocking efficiency.

Oh, you mean Daleks? Won't end well. Like this thread.
Chris

 

[Kat Tsun]

Men, in extreme cases, will stuff each other's face and become best friends after that. Women will take revenge forever

Concrete evidence or just misogynistic bromance BS?

Real life experience, observed personally and repeatedly

ÐеÑелÑе коÑоÑÑÑиÑеÑÑð¤£

by ðºðððð ð½ððððð

coub.com

He's just showing him who's the boss of that gym.

Men, in extreme cases, will stuff each other

Enough said.

ROTFL

There's a reason dudes signed up to serve on metal tubes under the sea for six months at a time.

You do realize that women serve on USN ballistic missile subs, see for example https://mybighornbasin.com/uss-wyoming-first-navy-submarine-with-an-all-women-crew/?

Yes, it's a lot smarter than mixed-gender crews like the Columbias are supposed to have. Less chances of crews (literally) fucking around when they're inevitably needed to employ their weapons for the good of the nation.

You're all overlooking the obvious answer of putting a bunch of brains in jars and have them go. No body = minimal resource drain. They can be wired up directly to the computers.

Who needs all those redundant capabilities in all those other organs? Those are just blocking efficiency.

Hello Adeptus Mechanicus calling. They'd like their brain rockets back.

The requirement that the Mercury 7 be test-pilots was a political one and not a NASA one. NASA didn't want to have to deal with test-pilots and their egos.

NASA chose Mercury 7. Don't shift the blame onto nebulous shadowy figures. The history is literally public knowledge.

How do we know this? Because on 1 DEC 58, NACA's Director of Manpower A.O. Gamble, NACA test pilot W.J. North, and Langley's representative for NACA's X-15 project C.J. Donlan met and determined that of all possible candidates, test pilots are best. Why did they do this? Because "it was a political decision"? Because "test pilots and their egos" won? No.

It's because NASA started out as NACA, which was an organization of test pilots and engineers who designed funny airplanes, duh.

Shocking news: organization charged to go to space run and staffed by test pilots suggests only test pilots should go to space.

 

[Dilandu]

You're all overlooking the obvious answer of putting a bunch of brains in jars and have them go. No body = minimal resource drain. They can be wired up directly to the computers.

Technically yes, but we aren't exactly very close to this.